Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Zeek12 · 18-06-2019 10:45PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

I don't think you need an app. You just need to not give your kid one of these devices .

This is it.
At what point did parents start treating these devices and the accompanying social media apps, as toys?

Kids as young as 9 or 10 with their own phones and full open access to the internet and apps. It’s so dangerous

I honestly fear there’s a wave of emotional, mental and even physical problems to come later in life for many of our kids from all this

Gimme A Pound · 18-06-2019 10:45PM

petrolcan wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me that you never did anything that could be construed as bullying when a teenager?

The point I'm making is that all teens did/do it, even without thinking. Give them a criminal record for it and see what happens. It'd be like giving everyone a 2:1 degree for writing their name on a bit of paper.

Moving the goalposts. It was violent bullying in your last post. Now it's "something that could be construed as bullying" which "everyone" is guilty of. Firstly you don't know everyone, secondly - don't judge everyone by your standards in order to feel better. The vast majority of people never engage in violent bullying, and damn right those who do so should get done for assault.

tayto lover · 18-06-2019 10:45PM

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Abuse at the Gardai & Jury according to the news reports. Not the victim's family. Stick to the facts here.

Ah ok, that makes it alright then. He’s a nice man so.

Sunflower 27 · 18-06-2019 10:46PM

MissShihTzu wrote: »

No. I suppose not. But then again - Most parents should take an interest in their children's lives. Likes, dislikes, favourite programmes, who their friends are. Normal ****. No matter how busy their lives are. So I don't buy that. And I would most certainly ask to see their phones from time to time. But then, that's me.

I think kids can be far more savvy when it comes to hiding stuff on their phones than we realise.

I'm not going to blame the parents for not looking at their kids phones and knowing what was there. Maybe they did look, maybe things were well hidden.

Liking horror films, being into martial arts, for instance, doesn't necessarily mean anything sinister.

There's some very strange and evil stuff online and you don't have to be an adult to find it.

ILoveYourVibes · 18-06-2019 10:46PM

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Fair enough. But the conviction may be wrong. Boy B has certainly not helped himself.

Psychopaths rarely do.

You are way too naive to be a lawyer.

What is it like to watch a young girl die?? What do you have to have inside you to NOT break down like a baby and tell everyone?

You have to be something else. And he admitted he saw it.

Shemale · 18-06-2019 10:46PM

jmayo wrote: »

From humberlog earlier

Very weird alright.
I mean how many of us wouldn't scamper off to bed when our 13 year old kid is being chatted to at the door by Gardai.
And especially so when they have already been talking for an hour.

One might even leap to the conclusion he has nothing, but contempt for the Gardai.
Oh and couldn't give shyte when a young girl around the same age as his son and in the same school is missing.

Even the fact they didnt ask the Gardai in is weird, clearly a cover up.

I recall a rumour at the time it happened that one of the fathers dads roughed him to to make it look lile he was attacked by men, seemed odd to me at time but might be possible given this and calling Gardai scumbags

Daisy78 · 18-06-2019 10:47PM

petrolcan wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me that you never did anything that could be construed as bullying when a teenager?

The point I'm making is that all teens did/do it, even without thinking. Give them a criminal record for it and see what happens. It'd be like giving everyone a 2:1 degree for writing their name on a bit of paper.

I didn’t, lots of well adjusted people manage to get through their adolescence without bullying others.

anewme · 18-06-2019 10:47PM

Seathrun66 wrote: »

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If my child did something like this I wouldn't be hurling abuse at the victim's family and the jury in court. Boy B's family are utter scum. This isn't about holding all parents responsible for all of their childrens' bad behaviour, but this particular crowd come across as unhinged, dysfunctional scrotes.

Abuse at the Gardai & Jury according to the news reports. Not the victim's family. Stick to the facts here.

While the victims family are sitting there, having had to listen to their son describre Ana as wearing slutty clothes and beding someonee he'd eant nothing to do with.

They should be right proud of that lad allright.

Faugheen · 18-06-2019 10:47PM

Seathrun66 wrote: »

I'm a lawyer.

See I call bullsh*t here.

Any legal professional worth their salt knows you can't base any case beit for theft of a packet of crisps or murder based on a few articles you read.

18-06-2019 10:47PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Severely bullied in school.

That angers me no end too.

Other kids involved in making her life a misery.

Absolutely and anyone who took part in that bullying shame on them and anyone who stood by and watched and did nothing while she was bullied shame on them too.

I have no doubt the dehumanizing bullying of this girl lead those two predatory monsters to target her. Anyone who actively bullied Ana bears some responsibility for her death.

tayto lover · 18-06-2019 10:47PM

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Psychopaths rarely do.

You are way too naive to be a lawyer.

What is it like to watch a young girl die?? What do you have to have inside you to NOT break down like a baby and tell everyone?

You have to be something else. And he admitted he saw it.

I believe he was the chief organizer and planner of the whole lot.

Ursus Horribilis · 18-06-2019 10:48PM

Fieldog wrote: »

Dublin is a small place, I work with a girl who's brothers child was in their class, they are in class photos with the other kid's, she actually I'D one of them out of a class picture guessing having never seen them before....

It's small little things like that you never even think of..

It still doesn't make it right. Back when that Paddy Jackson/Stuart Olding trial was on the go, somebody sent me a photo of the lady who was supposedly at the centre of the trial. It later turned out that it was a photo of a completely different person :rolleyes:

We don't know the kid(s) in the photos circulating around Whatsapp are the right ones. And I'm uneasy about the social media lynch mob that assembles at times like these. It doesn't mean I don't wish these two "boys" ill but we need to be careful. Talking about lynching them, their parents and even their barrister makes us no better than them.

Lackadaisical · 18-06-2019 10:48PM

Grayson wrote: »

Kids find a way round it. Create anonymous accounts and stuff like that. We need far more anti bullying and equality teaching. Ana was picked on because she was just a bit different and we need to stop that kind of stuff happening. We need better systems in place in schools where kids can approach people and talk about it and parents can get involved. Sure social media companies can get involved but we have to address the problem outside of the technical sphere as well.

I think though they should contribute financially to those programmes. They pay very little tax and effectively a new form of bullying is a consequence of their business model. So they should cough up. They pay little or no tax anyway.

Dante7 · 18-06-2019 10:48PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

And this is exactly what the jury decided and took 14 hours to do so watching all of those tapes over again. (They probably deviced on the guilt of boy A in 5 minutes).

I trust they made a good decision.

It does seem that it was a very robust and diligent jury. There can be no appeal based on not liking the jury's decision. That's not how it works. Any appeal would have to be based on inaccuracies of law or on the Judge erring on admissibility or inadmissibility of evidence, or in his direction to the jury. I don't think there can be an appeal due to his direction, as he seemed to lean towards being very careful with Boy B. An appeal for Boy B will likely be based on inadmissibility of the psychologist's report. Can't see that flying though.

18-06-2019 10:48PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

You’re assuming that the gardai the PTSD evidence will somehow convince a higher court when it wasn’t even admissible in this trial. This is the very evidence that actually definitely puts boy B at the scene of the crime.

Also one shrinks opinion isn’t itself absolutely guaranteed to win the trial, even if an appeal happens the new jury or judges may well discount the evidence even if it is deemed permissible.

It's pretty strong and consistent evidence going by the Irish Times and other reporting. Not to include it will give grounds for appeal for starters. I think it's clear he was at the scene but crucial questions are for how long and what was his role there? Captured leaving on CCTV soon after. At best he's a weak kid who did nothing to intervene and lied to protect himself. At worst he's a murderer.

El_Bee · 18-06-2019 10:49PM

The Parents were so brave, they stayed in court the whole time, heard every distressing fact, every awful detail. I believe they did it for Ana, they wanted to be strong for her for her memory, it makes me cry. To handwave the father's outburst is another symptom of our ability to accept and condone disgusting behaviour in our society.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 18-06-2019 10:49PM

Seathrun66 wrote: »

No actually it's not. Presence at the murder scene or not trying to stop the murder are not legal justifications for a murder conviction.

And yet here we are. A murder conviction.

Foreknowledge and conspiracy to murder are. But that's not what the poster said.

And therefore the jury must have accepted this too because there is a murder conviction.

You might know more than this judge, and the DPP and the legal system on this one but I doubt it.

You started off by claiming that there might be a technicality on the inadmissible evidence (and certainly that might be grounds for an appeal) and that the gardai might have interviewed coercively, something you seem to have recanted on.

Now you are claiming that the entire Irish legal system doesn’t know what constitutes murder but you do.

Huge if true. Heads should roll.

18-06-2019 10:49PM

anewme wrote: »

Same as when he went to bed when his son was interviewed at the front door for an hour by Gardai as being the last to see a missing girl alive.

Where does it say an hour. Reports from the court and newspapers said a brief talk at the door.

ILoveYourVibes · 18-06-2019 10:50PM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Liking horror films, being into martial arts, for instance, doesn't necessarily mean anything sinister.

For a child it might to be honest. Childhood needs a certain watershed of innocence before children can mature.

JustAThought · 18-06-2019 10:50PM

Seathrun66 wrote: »

It's pretty strong and consistent evidence going by the Irish Times and other reporting. Not to include it will give grounds for appeal for starters. I think it's clear he was at the scene but crucial questions are for how long and what was his role there? Captured leaving on CCTV soon after. At best he's a weak kid who did nothing to intervene and lied to protect himself. At worst he's a murderer.

Yes. Guilty.
Murderer.
And monster.

mattser · 18-06-2019 10:50PM

I just want to give a little appreciation to the Gardai and all other services that were involved in this most distressing event.
You would have to have a heart of stone to go home and sleep well.

petrolcan · 18-06-2019 10:51PM

Hal3000 wrote: »

Will Ana's parents be offered the same treatment?

Let's hope so.

ILoveYourVibes · 18-06-2019 10:51PM

Seathrun66 wrote: »

It's pretty strong and consistent evidence going by the Irish Times and other reporting. Not to include it will give grounds for appeal for starters. I think it's clear he was at the scene but crucial questions are for how long and what was his role there? Captured leaving on CCTV soon after. At best he's a weak kid who did nothing to intervene and lied to protect himself. At worst he's a murderer.

He will probably admit to murder in a year or so. Gut feeling.

Sunflower 27 · 18-06-2019 10:51PM

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

For a child it might to be honest. Childhood needs a certain watershed of innocence before children can mature.

Weren't the Scream films targeted at teenagers?

Faugheen · 18-06-2019 10:51PM

Seathrun66 wrote: »

It's pretty strong and consistent evidence going by the Irish Times and other reporting. Not to include it will give grounds for appeal for starters. I think it's clear he was at the scene but crucial questions are for how long and what was his role there? Captured leaving on CCTV soon after. At best he's a weak kid who did nothing to intervene and lied to protect himself. At worst he's a murderer.

'Weak kid' my hole.

He orchestrated the whole thing.

PressRun · 18-06-2019 10:51PM

I also hope this case opens up some dialogue about how we speak to and about young girls and women. Ana was sexually harassed in school which eventually led to her being assaulted and murdered. She is not the first young girl to experience this kind of harassment and she won't be the last. The normalisation of certain language and behaviours around women and girls makes it so much easier to dehumanise them and ultimately harm them. To even hear one of the boys refer to Ana as a "slut" after he knew she had been murdered speaks to a warped view of women at a very young age.

ILoveYourVibes · 18-06-2019 10:52PM

petrolcan wrote: »

Let's hope so.

I doubt it. I think they will be left alone.

I hope their community doesn't leave them alone in the dark.

Sardonicat · 18-06-2019 10:52PM

Shemale wrote: »

jmayo wrote: »

From humberlog earlier

Very weird alright.
I mean how many of us wouldn't scamper off to bed when our 13 year old kid is being chatted to at the door by Gardai.
And especially so when they have already been talking for an hour.

One might even leap to the conclusion he has nothing, but contempt for the Gardai.
Oh and couldn't give shyte when a young girl around the same age as his son and in the same school is missing.

Even the fact they didnt ask the Gardai in is weird, clearly a cover up.

I recall a rumour at the time it happened that one of the fathers dads roughed him to to make it look lile he was attacked by men, seemed odd to me at time but might be possible given this and calling Gardai scumbags

Except it was A who claimed he was beaten up.

tuxy · 18-06-2019 10:52PM

Shemale wrote: »

I recall a rumour at the time it happened that one of the fathers dads roughed him to to make it look lile he was attacked by men, seemed odd to me at time but might be possible given this and calling Gardai scumbags

This came out in the trial, Boy A claimed he was attacked by two adults in the park to explain injuries he had.
There was nothing said that would indicated abuse from his father.
It would seem the trial continues on whatapp and I find it worrying that many on here take some pleasure from participating in this.

STB. · 18-06-2019 10:53PM

spaceHopper wrote: »

The sentence for murder is life no matter what, you can't be given a lighter sentence for pleading guilty - so they had nothing to gain by doing so. The prosecution had to prove she didn't consent to sex with boy A and that they planned to kill her, they this wasn't something gone wrong and man-slaughter

Except in the case of minors. Whilst they are tried as adults in the Circuit or Central Criminal Court due to the nature of the charge, i.e. murder, the Children’s Act is silent on mandatory sentences, but the legal consensus is they don’t apply to children even in cases of murder.

This has come up several times in the thread. Naming - why they weren't named, will they ever be if they are released.

Strangely there have been cases before in Ireland where the murderer was named at the time despite being a minor. I don't know why in that case. The Criminal Justice Act made amendments to the Childrens Act in 2006 so perhaps it was before it. In any event he was named at the time and again when he was released 12 years later.

The Journal claims that the gagging order remains indefinitely for the two found guilty today, even after they reach 18 and are eventually released.

I believe that only a Judge can release the gag on naming if he/she believes it is the public interest to do so.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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