"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 03:50PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

Fairly sure people have no issue with her doing a heel turn, rather how badly it was handled. It's like someone just flicked a switch and all of a sudden, mad Dany.

Yeah I’ve read the whole thread and your own posts.
It was the issue. Stop pretending otherwise.
Again, you can not like it. That’s fine.
You can’t say it is cheap lazy writing. It’s been set up both in the books and the series from the get go.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 16-05-2019 03:51PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The tagrayan words

‘Fire and blood’

But She’s actin totally out of character! Waaaaaaaaaaahhhh!

Grayditch · 16-05-2019 03:52PM

They still had to write it for screen. Which so many people think they did badly.

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 03:53PM

Grayditch wrote: »

Riiiight. What are the Lannister's words and how much do they own the Tyrells and the bank? Can see Tyrion breaking out the coinpurse on Sunday.

On that. If she’s still on the throne nothing stopping her going and doing a job on the iron bank.
She has a city/empire to rebuild.

It won’t happen but I’d love to see it.

Iron bank are such smug gits

OneOfThem Stumbled · 16-05-2019 03:59PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You can’t say it is cheap lazy writing. It’s been set up both in the books and the series from the get go.

It's cheap lazy writing.

The slaver masters of Mereen crucified 163 slave children and had their corpses point towards Mereen, in mocking contempt of Daenerys' threats to take the city and free the slaves. Doesn't make Daenerys flip out (though she does crucify 163 masters of Mereen after taking the city, in retaliation).

Cersei kills Missandei, one of the hundreds of thousands of slaves Daenerys freed. Daenerys flips out and kills everyone in King's Landing.

That's... some setup alright.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 04:01PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

That's not even remotely a comparison I was trying to make at all.

If that's all you took from the entirety of that post I think we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it there.

You made a comparison between Dany and the use of nukes by the US while totally ignoring the context of both situations and what each were trying to gain by their actions.

It's a terrible comparison.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 04:08PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

It was beating us over the head, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense. She has conquered 3 cities before now, 4 is you count Casterly Rock. Each of these cities opposed her, in each of them she put her enemies to the sword, in each of them most of the civilians (except the wise masters) were left unharmed.

She specifically bought Unsullied because Unsullied will never kill an innocent person unless specifically ordered to do so.

I suppose you could consider her to have conquered 5 cities if you count Vaes Dothrak a city. There she again killed her enemies, and spared the civilians. I suppose being made a captive and told that she was going to be a prisoner there for the rest of her life wasn't enough to make her go off the edge.

They were the only people in the cities that weren't those who followed her and treated her like a god. After they had taken the city and without a trial, she crucified 163 of them and then later fed random members of high ranking families to her dragon, again with no trial or proof of any connection with the sons of the harpy.

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 04:09PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

It's cheap lazy writing.

The slaver masters of Mereen crucified 163 slave children and had their corpses point towards Mereen, in mocking contempt of Daenerys' threats to take the city and free the slaves. Doesn't make Daenerys flip out (though she does crucify 163 masters of Mereen after taking the city, in retaliation).

Cersei kills Missandei, one of the hundreds of thousands of slaves Daenerys freed. Daenerys flips out and kills everyone in King's Landing.

That's... some setup alright.

If only they had you’re insightful take to guide them.
We’d all be delighted with it I’m sure

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 04:12PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Ignoring how in the last 2 seasons they've built up that Dany doesn't see the people of KL as being innocents because they've done nothing to support her in taking over KL.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 04:16PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

It's cheap lazy writing.

The slaver masters of Mereen crucified 163 slave children and had their corpses point towards Mereen, in mocking contempt of Daenerys' threats to take the city and free the slaves. Doesn't make Daenerys flip out (though she does crucify 163 masters of Mereen after taking the city, in retaliation).

Without any trial that they had any involvement in crucifying the slaves.

Cersei kills Missandei, one of the hundreds of thousands of slaves Daenerys freed. Daenerys flips out and kills everyone in King's Landing.

That's... some setup alright.

The hundreds of thousands of slaves she cared so much about that she abandoned in Essos rather than staying to make sure their society was functioning, rather than the disaster for them she left? Her main driver is winning and keeping the Iron Throne, everything else is secondary to her.

Sleepy · 16-05-2019 04:20PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

Fairly sure people have no issue with her doing a heel turn, rather how badly it was handled. It's like someone just flicked a switch and all of a sudden, mad Dany.

Honestly Heel turn is a bad phrase given it's association with the WWE.

Their writers put more nuance into their characters than Benioff and Weiss have this season.

Tazzimus · 16-05-2019 04:22PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Yeah I’ve read the whole thread and your own posts.
It was the issue. Stop pretending otherwise.
Again, you can not like it. That’s fine.
You can’t say it is cheap lazy writing. It’s been set up both in the books and the series from the get go.

I'm not pretending otherwise, the heel turn isn't that much of a surprise for almost everybody, myself included. Open your eyes a bit.
How it was done was shoddy. She literally changes in a moment, with no real trigger.
You even said yourself they could have shown Rhaegal being killed or something to trigger her..

OneOfThem Stumbled · 16-05-2019 04:23PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

They were the only people in the cities that weren't those who followed her and treated her like a god. After they had taken the city and without a trial, she crucified 163 of them and then later fed random members of high ranking families to her dragon, again with no trial or proof of any connection with the sons of the harpy.

They actively opposed her, they were slavers (which she personally hates), they created conspiracies and insurgent groups to bring down her government, killed one of her closest advisers (Ser Barriston) and she still planned to marry one of them in order to secure lasting peace. She even endured the ire of the freed slaves for sentencing to death a freed slave who had murdered a master, because she wanted to ensure that the rule of law, and justice, were observed.

Was she a totally good person? Nope. She was egotistical, absolutist, and indeed brutal at times. None of the "heroic" characters in Game of Thrones have been spotless. Edd Stark in the opening scene executed a man for running away from ice zombies, simply because that was the law. Tyrion strangles his former lover to death. Jon Snow executes Janos Slynt for questioning his authority. Sansa lies to save Littlefinger's life when he is first on trial, and later betrays him and has him killed because he was being a troublesome arsehole.

Tazzimus · 16-05-2019 04:23PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly Heel turn is a bad phrase given it's association with the WWE.

Their writers put more nuance into their characters than Benioff and Weiss have this season.

First phrase that came to mind

osarusan · 16-05-2019 04:27PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You can’t say it is cheap lazy writing.

The whole discussion is about whether it is or not.

Some posters think that her descent into madness/cruelty was sufficiently hinted at/foreshadowed prior to the destruction of KL, while other posters don't think it was hinted at enough, and therefore the character changes without enough justification.

The latter (of which I'm one) think that's cheap lazy writing. Especially as just a few tweaks (which have been suggested on this thread) would have made it a lot more acceptable to us.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 16-05-2019 04:27PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

If only they had you’re insightful take to guide them.
We’d all be delighted with it I’m sure

A bit like with X-Men Origins: Wolverine, when it's that bad, you don't have to be particularly talented to do better.

nix · 16-05-2019 04:28PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Without any trial that they had any involvement in crucifying the slaves.

They dont do Trials in war, they all were guilty as they all left the children crucifed, she gave them loads of opportunity to surrender. And she took the city without using her dragons or attacking from the outside. Yet she forgot these tactics when she got to kings landing

Foxtrol wrote: »

The hundreds of thousands of slaves she cared so much about that she abandoned in Essos rather than staying to make sure their society was functioning, rather than the disaster for them she left? Her main driver is winning and keeping the Iron Throne, everything else is secondary to her.

She didnt, she left Daario Naharis and the second sons behind to keep the peace while the people of Mereen form a new government.

intellectual dosser · 16-05-2019 04:33PM

A major difference is that the slaves loved her, she has decided that the people of Westeros don't.

I think overall her arc is to follow that of her father, I don't recall if the mad king was crowned with murdering hatred of commoners.

is_that_so · 16-05-2019 04:34PM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

A major difference is that the slaves loved her, she has decided that the people of Westeros don't.

I think overall her arc is to follow that of her father, I don't recall if the mad king was crowned with murdering hatred of commoners.

His madness took years.

Stop moaning ffs · 16-05-2019 04:39PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

I'm not pretending otherwise, the heel turn isn't that much of a surprise for almost everybody, myself included. Open your eyes a bit.
How it was done was shoddy. She literally changes in a moment, with no real trigger.
You even said yourself they could have shown Rhaegal being killed or something to trigger her..

Christ back to this again.

She didn’t change in a moment.
They killed her best mate two weeks ago.
They killed one of her dragons.
She can’t trust any of her advisors and know one of them is trying to kill her.
She knows the throne is about to be taken away from her.

How many times does it have to be explained??

You wanted the Disney happy ending obviously. Dany on the throne. Everyone gets a lordship and they all live happily ever after.

*youd be bitching and moaning if it was that too no doubt

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 04:41PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

They actively opposed her, they were slavers (which she personally hates), they created conspiracies and insurgent groups to bring down her government, killed one of her closest advisers (Ser Barriston) and she still planned to marry one of them in order to secure lasting peace. She even endured the ire of the freed slaves for sentencing to death a freed slave who had murdered a master, because she wanted to ensure that the rule of law, and justice, were observed.

Some actively opposed her but she barbarically murdered hundreds with no proof that they were guilty of anything you claim. It is like some of the atrocities the British did, murdered for their association with 'the enemy'.

As for the executing the slave, that was classic tyrant 'do as i say, not as i do'. Her personal hate of slaves only seemed to bubble up when it suited her quest for power. There is evidence that she doesn't like slavery but it was always secondary to getting to the Iron Throne.

Was she a totally good person? Nope. She was egotistical, absolutist, and indeed brutal at times. None of the "heroic" characters in Game of Thrones have been spotless. Edd Stark in the opening scene executed a man for running away from ice zombies, simply because that was the law. Tyrion strangles his former lover to death. Jon Snow executes Janos Slynt for questioning his authority. Sansa lies to save Littlefinger's life when he is first on trial, and later betrays him and has him killed because he was being a troublesome arsehole.

Though I disagree with the narrative you're building for those characters, I agree that no character is spotless, however none of those characters come close to the cruel, barbaric, or vengeful deeds that Dany showed right from the first season.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 16-05-2019 04:41PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Ignoring how in the last 2 seasons they've built up that Dany doesn't see the people of KL as being innocents because they've done nothing to support her in taking over KL.

The slaves of Mereen did nothing to help Daenerys in advance of her putting the city under siege. In the tv show there's even a conversation where talk about uprising is squashed due to fear. The slaves of Mereen only rise up once the writing is on the walls, and a clandestine operation is launched to rally them to Daenerys' cause.

It's clear that Cersei is not loved in King's Landing. It wasn't long ago that the people of King's Landing were throwing rotten fruit (and worse) at Cersei as she was paraded naked through the streets. There had already been a brief revolt of the citizens against Joffrey, which was brutally put down. The only thing holding the city together was Margery, who the people adored (before she was blown up by Cersei). Everyone knows that Cersei blew up the pope, and the members of House Tyrell (for whom the populace of the city were dependent upon for food). Even Hot Pie casually remarks to Arya that Cersei blew up the Sept of Baelor.

There's setup there alright, but it's in the opposite direction to what the writers intended, so its implications are simply ignored by them, in much the same way that they ignored that they killed all the Dothraki and Unsullied two episodes ago.

nix · 16-05-2019 04:45PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Christ back to this again.

She didn’t change in a moment.
They killed her best mate two weeks ago.
They killed one of her dragons.
She can’t trust any of her advisors and know one of them is trying to kill her.
She knows the throne is about to be taken away from her.

How many times does it have to be explained??

You wanted the Disney happy ending obviously. Dany on the throne. Everyone gets a lordship and they all live happily ever after.

*youd be bitching and moaning if it was that too no doubt

Not this again :rolleyes:

As many have said before, nobody has a problem with the end result, they just have a problem with how sudden the jump was from the Dany we know to the mad queen we dont, it was a massive character change in the space of 3 episodes, and it was obviously RUSHED.

Penn · 16-05-2019 04:45PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Christ back to this again.

She didn’t change in a moment.
They killed her best mate two weeks ago.
They killed one of her dragons.
She can’t trust any of her advisors and know one of them is trying to kill her.
She knows the throne is about to be taken away from her.

How many times does it have to be explained??

You wanted the Disney happy ending obviously. Dany on the throne. Everyone gets a lordship and they all live happily ever after.

*youd be bitching and moaning if it was that too no doubt

Plus it was repeatedly demonstrated last season that Tyrion (and even Jon) had to convince her not to just fly her dragons to Kings Landing and burn down the Red Keep, which was what she wanted to do. Jorah and Barristan have also had to try reel in some of her worst impulses in the past too. This wasn't a sudden turn from Dany. This is something her advisors have been holding her back from. But losing some of her closest advisors, Missande's last words being Dracarys, not trusting the advisors she has left, and no longer having the "love of the people" she gained in Slavers Bay and seeing Jon get the love she feels she deserves and him being the rightful heir to the throne... her worst impulses are all she has left. Ruling by fear is all she has left, and the throne is all she has ever wanted.

TerrorFirmer · 16-05-2019 04:53PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Without any trial that they had any involvement in crucifying the slaves.

I hate to over-use the phrase but I have to because you seem to honestly have troubling diffrentating between willingness to accept collateral damage and propensity for violence for its own sake.

She didn't crucify 163 random people, she deliberately chose the class responsible for slave trading; obviously a few were innocent, but that's acceptable collateral damage to Daenerys.

All wars in history have this to varying degrees; some leaders try and limit collateral damage, others don't really give a damn as long as it all leads towards victory.

This is how she has always been - hot headed and willing to use 'fire and blood' to achieve her aims, but even her most extreme examples of suggested force are not devoid of logic and entirely have purpose and a considered balance of right to wrong.

Again, exact same as Cersei, who's willing to blow up the Sept and hundreds of innocent people to kill her enemies; she's willing to crowd civilians into the keep and sacrifice them if needs be to make Daenerys the 'bad guy'.

But just like her nemesis, there's a cold, ruthless logic to it all and it's not madness, just utter selfish ambition in pursuit of an aim.

If Daenerys had callously destroyed Kings Landing in an attempt to force victory - killed every single occupant to the very last child until Cersei finally surrendered - that would tally with the character established thus far.

It would tally with everything built up in S8 also; "Fear it is", what she's lost, feeling the throne slip away, the sense of isolation, and so forth, and the increasing willingness to wreak unlimited havoc until she wins.

If they had given her an emotional trigger to destroy Kings Landing at that moment; Rhaegar's death, Greyworms death; something, ANYTHING....it would've been a lot more credible.

Or, if they had carefully charted her descent into illogical behavior and eventual madness, over several more badly needed episodes, and then had her go mad at that moment as the bells rang out.... it would've been more credible either.

What they set up, very sloppily, in S8 wasn't for her to go mad. It was for her to become more hard, cold and ruthless than she'd ever been before, and willing to sacrifice absolutely anyone, or anything, to achieve her aims.

Ironically a mirror image of Cersei Lannister, that could have credibly burnt down Kings Landing simply to secure victory against an enemy that refused to yield even as their city and army collapsed around her.

What they actually just flung at us in E05 was she absolutely crushes her enemies and instills such fear that the city is paralyzed, and enemy forces either scatter or throw down their weapons.

Then suddenly we "OK, she's won a devastating victory alongside her allies, now she's a demented, genocidal maniac just like her dad" just doesn't tally with the setup, cool and all as the resulting spectacle is.

They needed her to either burn down the city in actual pursuit of victory (credible to her character arc in S8) or give more episodes to the encroaching madness to then make what did happen also more credible.

They did neither.

They just flung crap at the narrative and hoped through spectacle, shock and awe it would just stick and no-one would look too much into it.

It will be interesting how it's all framed in the next episode though.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 04:53PM

nix wrote: »

They dont do Trials in war, they all were guilty as they all left the children crucifed, she gave them loads of opportunity to surrender. And she took the city without using her dragons or attacking from the outside. Yet she forgot these tactics when she got to kings landing

The battle was clearly well over when she crucified them. The tactics that you claim she forgot in KL were to let the common folk overthrow their oppressors, something she actually give them plenty of opportunity to do and she is frustrated that it never happens.

I disagree that those are the rules of war, but if you're trying to claim that claim then Dany could then see the people of KL for 'leaving' Cersei do all the damage that she did.

She didnt, she left Daario Naharis and the second sons behind to keep the peace while the people of Mereen form a new government.

Even when she was there it was chaos, former slaves telling her that the strong were attacking the weak and one wanted to become a slave again. She left Astapor and it fell straight into the hands of 'a butcher'. Though she probably had some good intentions in freeing slave, what she what she cared about most was always the Iron Throne

Tazzimus · 16-05-2019 04:53PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Christ back to this again.

She didn’t change in a moment.
They killed her best mate two weeks ago.
They killed one of her dragons.
She can’t trust any of her advisors and know one of them is trying to kill her.
She knows the throne is about to be taken away from her.

How many times does it have to be explained??

You wanted the Disney happy ending obviously. Dany on the throne. Everyone gets a lordship and they all live happily ever after.

*youd be bitching and moaning if it was that too no doubt

You either need better glasses, or need them to begin with..

I'm talking about sitting there on Drogon, battle won, enemies surrendered, throne hers, and then she decides **** it, I'll burn them anyway, citizens and all. That was sudden.

You also fail to notice I repeatedly said I've no issue with the turn, a lot of people don't in fact, but that doesn't suit your moany, condescending posts so you ignore it.

TerrorFirmer · 16-05-2019 04:59PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

You also fail to notice I repeatedly said I've no issue with the turn, a lot of people don't in fact, but that doesn't suit your moany, condescending posts so you ignore it.

At this point I think some people aren't even reading the posts. It's literally as clear as day that the issue people have is the scripting behind the turn, not the turn itself.

Literally no-one has an issue with Dany burning Kings Landing, or going mad, as actual inherent plot points, both of which have been on the boiler since way back when.

I don't know where this "You just wanted a disney ending with Daenerys sitting on the throne happy ever after with Jon" comes from.

I'm not even sure it's even been said in the thread at all.

Foxtrol · 16-05-2019 05:00PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

The slaves of Mereen did nothing to help Daenerys in advance of her putting the city under siege. In the tv show there's even a conversation where talk about uprising is squashed due to fear. The slaves of Mereen only rise up once the writing is on the walls, and a clandestine operation is launched to rally them to Daenerys' cause.

It's clear that Cersei is not loved in King's Landing. It wasn't long ago that the people of King's Landing were throwing rotten fruit (and worse) at Cersei as she was paraded naked through the streets. There had already been a brief revolt of the citizens against Joffrey, which was brutally put down. The only thing holding the city together was Margery, who the people adored (before she was blown up by Cersei). Everyone knows that Cersei blew up the pope, and the members of House Tyrell (for whom the populace of the city were dependent upon for food). Even Hot Pie casually remarks to Arya that Cersei blew up the Sept of Baelor.

There's setup there alright, but it's in the opposite direction to what the writers intended, so its implications are simply ignored by them, in much the same way that they ignored that they killed all the Dothraki and Unsullied two episodes ago.

Oh Cersei isn't liked but the point is they still prefer her to the 'Foreign Invader' with her dragons, savages, and eunuchs.

I think the setup is great. Dany grew up hearing stories about how people long for a Targaryen to rule again and then is treated like a saviour by the common folk wherever she goes until she finally gets 'home' and the people still prefer a tyrant like Cersei than her and that is even before they know that the much loved and infamous Jon actually has a better claim to the throne than she does.

eagle eye · 16-05-2019 05:03PM

nix wrote:

As many have said before, nobody has a problem with the end result, they just have a problem with how sudden the jump was from the Dany we know to the mad queen we dont, it was a massive character change in the space of 3 episodes, and it was obviously RUSHED.

So losing your child and best friend couldn't lead to a person losing the plot?

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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