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"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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Comments

  • #812
    J. Marston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,408 ✭✭✭✭J. Marston


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Yeah, there is a sense of let's get it over and done with.

    For the people deeply unhappy with it, I'm sure.

    But they're breaking ratings records every week now. If there was apathy towards the show I don't think that would be happening.

    I am disappinted with the rushed aspects of season 8 but I hate seeing it end, to be honest.


  • #813
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    You're continuing to complain about something pedantic, especially given how many other improbably activities happen on the show. Given how nearly all of the camera work is a close up of the two dragons, I'm not sure how you can be so certain that every shot fired from the boats hit him, with the large distance meaning any small deviation in angle wouldn't be captured in that small shot and it is pretty unlikely that they decided not to have all the boats firing until Dany got in closer.

    Look, if not seeing more arrows in the screen ruined the episode, season, or whole bloody show for you then I feel bad, but for many of us we can find basic explanations for it, even if many, including myself, believe it could have been written better.

    So our issues are pedantic but yours are ok?
    Gotcha.


  • #814
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,740 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tyrion's character has been a disappointment alright. Maybe it is keeping with the theme of his unwavering faith in Daenerys but I can't help but feel he could have been more, I don't know, clever. I hadn't realised the boat he arranged for Jaime was also for Cersei. I need to watch it again. How did he square that with his belief in Daenerys and also giving up Varys? Now I know he was releasing Jaime but that was different in my eyes. That was love for his brother, a love I don't think he had for his sister.


  • #815
    Tazzimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,945 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    You’re making an idiot of yourself.

    By all means. Continue.
    Idiot for basic logic.
    Right ;)


  • #816
    nix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,943 ✭✭✭nix


    Tyrion has pretty much done **** all since he killed Tywin, apart from becoming the hand of the Queen, which he earned a bit too quickly and easily.

    A part of Tyrion died when he killed Tywin, the good part :D


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  • #817
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    J. Marston wrote: »
    For the people deeply unhappy with it, I'm sure.

    But they're breaking ratings records every week now. If there was apathy towards the show I don't think that would be happening.

    I am disappointed with the rushed aspects of season 8 but I hate seeing it end, to be honest.
    People have used TWD as an example and it has tumbled off a cliff on ratings in recent seasons. The shortened seasons have probably worked in their favour and created a huge desire to watch this last season. I'd watch it again, some of it but would probably stop at the end of 6. The real pity is that they could have wrapped it up much more satisfactorily with more episodes in 7 & 8.


  • #818
    Tazzimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,945 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    nix wrote: »
    Tyrion has pretty much done **** all since he killed Tywin, apart from becoming the hand of the Queen, which he earned a bit too quickly and easily.

    A part of Tyrion died when he killed Tywin, the good part :D
    They really made a balls of Tyrion, he's supposed to be one of the smartest characters, yet constantly ends up a bumbling idiot in the later seasons.


  • #819
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Hadn't it been mentioned many times that one Dragon was enough to take out a City ,

    Also people saying the turn around in Dragon skills but didn't the other Dragon only get hit and die because he was already severely injured in the battle with the Knight king,
    turbbo wrote: »
    That's a good point. Hadn't thought about that.
    Jon had a conversation with Tormund where he said Rhaegal needed to recover his strength so be wouldn't be riding him with Dany when she went south. Clearly this was just plot building so that Rhaegal could be taken out, without also killing Jon. If you look back to the battle of Winterfell, Rhaegal did get injured but Drogon got over run by wights and was stabbed a billion times but was miraculously healed enough by the end of the episode to give Dany a hug when she was mourning Jorah. The dragons live, get injured, die and have powers that suit the plot, not reality.


  • #820
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    Jon had a conversation with Tormund where he said Rhaegal needed to recover his strength so be wouldn't be riding him with Dany when she went south. Clearly this was just plot building so that Rhaegal could be taken out, without also killing Jon. If you look back to the battle of Winterfell, Rhaegal did get injured but Drogon got over run by wights and was stabbed a billion times but was miraculously healed enough by the end of the episode to give Dany a hug when she was mourning Jorah. The dragons live, get injured, die and have powers that suit the plot, not reality.

    Yes, the reality of dragons... :pac:


  • #821
    eric hoone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 484 ✭✭eric hoone


    is_that_so wrote: »
    She went psycho almost in an instant. That's really not how you set up such a fundamental switch credibly and there was no real conflict apart from the aforementioned sulk. It's not so much that she did it, as deranged as it was, it's that she got less than two episodes to completely lose it. That is down to the poor writing and racing to get to the end of it.

    Why did she have to go on the killing spree though....it makes all the previous time spent building up her character/ legacy seem wasted for her to go full psycho in the space of a couple of episodes


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  • #822
    Hitchens
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,138 ✭✭✭Hitchens


    eric hoone wrote: »
    Why did she have to go on the killing spree though....it makes all the previous time spent building up her character/ legacy seem wasted for her to go full psycho in the space of a couple of episodes

    as Albert Reynolds once said ........"that's women for ya"


  • #823
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    eric hoone wrote: »
    Why did she have to go on the killing spree though....it makes all the previous time spent building up her character/ legacy seem wasted for her to go full psycho in the space of a couple of episodes

    Though it makes all the time they spent building over 8 season's her character's lust for power, vengeance, and barbarism worth it.


  • #824
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Yes, the reality of dragons... :pac:
    Reality within the universe of fiction, you know what I mean :p

    Which brings me onto a serious point. Imagine if there's aliens out there and they some how managed to pick up on our internet and came across this thread on boards about everyone arguing over fictional characters. What would they think??? This is probably why they won't come visit us :pac:

    Or what about archaeologists? Used to be you had to dig people up and try to piece together what type of society they had. Future generations will only have to access our ramblings to realise that despite technology, we're full of sh!te lol


  • #825
    Grayditch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,347 ✭✭✭✭Grayditch


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    Reality within the universe of fiction, you know what I mean :p

    You're just going to be mocked in here for asking that it sticks to the rules it has set.


  • #826
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Grayditch wrote: »
    You're just going to be mocked in here for asking that it sticks to the rules it has set.

    Coz "magik".

    For consistent world building better off with Pratchett... though they fecked up his books for tv too :(


  • #827
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    Interesting personal take on Jaime on Reddit.

    It's close to my own feelings on it. Cersei was his toxic addiction he could never break free from, but it gave him a happy ending in the end, because it was the only ending he wanted.

    F**k Reddit...someone on Boards mentioned it the other day...

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110175202&postcount=291

    Reddit should be talking about what we are saying on Boards :D

    I had another watch of the episode since writing that post and a further thought occurred to me about Jaime's 'arc' and legacy - He was an incredibly fertile man. If we get one last check-in with Brienne before the show finishes, I wouldn't be surprised to see her pregnant with Jaime's baby. That would be a bittersweet ending to their story, or even a continuation of sorts. It would also answer the question which many seem to be asking - What was even the point in Jaime and Brienne hooking up?


  • #828
    ~Rebel~
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,142 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Though it makes all the time they spent building over 8 season's her character's lust for power, vengeance, and barbarism worth it.

    Once again, what they established is like an effective and efficient general, who is ruthless about suppressing enemies, but compassionate towards the innocent population, coming home from war, and shooting up a play school.

    The ruthlessness they always showed up till now always had people at the heart of it. You’ve referenced things she did ages ago as clear proof of her madness and bloodlust, but how does that square with her imprisoning her own dragons - the closest thing to children for her - after the death of one innocent child?

    The point is, she always felt like her being in power was good for the world at large. I have no problem with her turning crazy, it was always on the cards - but we needed to see tangible shift from her caring about innocents, to not caring about innocents. I’ve already pointed out a few examples of how it could easily have been done, but they choose not to do it. Her most barbaric acts were always softened - like Dickon choosing to be burned with his Dad, rather than her forcing the issue.

    Everything about this season feels like they favour “surprise!”, over proper build. Same for the dragon attack on Rhaegal. Would have been easy for them to see the ships, dive bomb, and only learn of the scorpions as they fired at the last moment. Instead they went for the surprise of an arrow appearing out of nowhere while they were flying around, fancy free.

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  • #829
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Would anyone be happy had it gone the other way?
    Lannister forces surrender, Dany enters the red keep with Jon and her forces.
    Cersei is locked up. Dany gives everyone lordships and castles and Jon goes back north.
    We all live happily ever after.

    Would anyone really want that?
    I’ve a feeling there’d be a similar level of or even more outrage if any version of this had happened.


  • #830
    Larsso30
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 567 ✭✭✭Larsso30


    How did people not see that Dany was going to lose the plot.

    Look back her first instinct was always to attack, her advisors always talked her round.

    The deaths of all her closest allies and dragons and betrayal by John and varys pushed her over the edge.

    Plus, she fulfilled her fathers ultimate aim to make Kings landing and its citizens burn.

    Awesome episode


  • #831
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    eric hoone wrote: »
    Why did she have to go on the killing spree though....it makes all the previous time spent building up her character/ legacy seem wasted for her to go full psycho in the space of a couple of episodes
    Yep and I've said as much.


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  • #832
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    Would anyone be happy had it gone the other way?
    Lannister forces surrender, Dany enters the red keep with Jon and her forces.
    Cersei is locked up. Dany gives everyone lordships and castles and Jon goes back north.
    We all live happily ever after.

    Would anyone really want that?
    I’ve a feeling there’d be a similar level of or even more outrage if any version of this had happened.

    Honestly, for the millionth time at this stage, literally no one has an issue with the general narrative of Daenerys.

    Her going mad is perfectly fine as a concept.

    It's the incredibly weak, lazy writing that's behind it - and most of the season since episode 3 - is the major problem.

    All these "how did people not see it coming" or "did people expect a Disney ending" posts are completely missing the nature of the criticism.


  • #833
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Larsso30 wrote: »
    How did people not see that Dany was going to lose the plot.

    Look back her first instinct was always to attack, her advisors always talked her round.

    The deaths of all her closest allies and dragons and betrayal by John and varys pushed her over the edge.

    Plus, she fulfilled her fathers ultimate aim to make Kings landing and its citizens burn.

    Awesome episode
    People like actual plot as it goes hand in hand with character development, not "OK in the next scene I want you to go psycho" from the director/writers.


  • #834
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    Honestly, for the millionth time at this stage, literally no one has an issue with the general narrative of Daenerys.

    Her going mad is perfectly fine as a concept.

    It's the incredibly weak, lazy writing that's behind it - and most of the season since episode 3 - is the major problem.

    All these "how did people not see it coming" or "did people expect a Disney ending" posts are completely missing the nature of the criticism.


    Can’t agree that it was weak or lazy.
    Do wish it had been a proper full season to really develop. Or at the very least have her lose Rhaegal during this battle and have that be the thing that pushes her over the edge.

    To be fair I think it’ll be brilliant to watch the whole thing from the beginning, knowing how it ends. I have a hunch it will reframe how we see her from the start and it’ll be far more interesting. She has long been accused of being a fairly uninteresting / one note character and acted poorly. This ending will elevate that and recontextualise her for many I’d say.


  • #835
    Tazzimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,945 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    Or at the very least have her lose Rhaegal during this battle and have that be the thing that pushes her over the edge.

    This would have made sense, or have Drogon get injured during the fight or something, some sort of trigger to make her burn everything.

    Not just, they surrendered, **** it Ima burn them all anyway.
    It was a very sudden switch that didn't work well because of it.


  • #836
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Larsso30 wrote: »
    Look back her first instinct was always to attack, her advisors always talked her round.

    The deaths of all her closest allies and dragons and betrayal by John and varys pushed her over the edge.

    Plus, she fulfilled her fathers ultimate aim to make Kings landing and its citizens burn.

    Awesome episode

    Everything she advocated for in earlier seasons - even things she was talked out of - were draconian measures against her enemies with a potential high level of collateral damage.

    She deemed that acceptable - her advisors persuaded her otherwise - but there was a logic and reason to it, nothing remotely 'mad'.

    She's increasingly showed this cold willingness to accept severe collateral damage in the name of 'total war' and the destruction of her enemies as seasons progressed.

    But there was always a distinct logic and reason to it. She's never killed, or expressed an interesting in killing, for the simple act of killing.

    If she had destroyed Kings Landing indiscriminately - innocent men, women and children included - as a response to Cersei's refusal to surrender, that would've been a far more credible character development.

    It would've been equally as horrifying and unacceptable to her allies, would've been a major escalation of her tendency to be willing to do anything to achieve victory, whilst still having a warped, logical, thinking to it.

    But having her murder the population of Kings Landing after they had surrendered is a break that was simply just not properly fleshed out or supported by the scripting.

    It would've been fine if we had 3 more episodes which explored, in-depth, that she was having a break with reality and descending into madness.

    It's the equivalent of the US deciding to drop two A-bombs on Japan after they had already surrendered....rather than dropping the A-bombs to force surrender.

    Daenerys was willing to drop the a-bombs, metaphorically, to achieve victory, and it made her closest allies extremely uneasy.

    But what she did to Kings Landing was dropping the a-bombs after victory had already been secured, and the writing up to that point does not support that sudden switch.


  • #837
    Drumpot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    Everything she advocated for in earlier seasons - even things she was talked out of - were draconian measures against her enemies with a potential high level of collateral damage.

    She deemed that acceptable - her advisors persuaded her otherwise - but there was a logic and reason to it, nothing remotely 'mad'.

    She's increasingly showed this cold willingness to accept severe collateral damage in the name of 'total war' and the destruction of her enemies as seasons progressed.

    But there was always a distinct logic and reason to it. She's never killed, or expressed an interesting in killing, for the simple act of killing.

    If she had destroyed Kings Landing indiscriminately - innocent men, women and children included - as a response to Cersei's refusal to surrender, that would've been a far more credible character development.

    It would've been equally as horrifying and unacceptable to her allies, would've been a major escalation of her tendency to be willing to do anything to achieve victory, whilst still having a warped, logical, thinking to it.

    But having her murder the population of Kings Landing after they had surrendered is a break that was simply just not properly fleshed out or supported by the scripting.

    It would've been fine if we had 3 more episodes which explored, in-depth, that she was having a break with reality and descending into madness.

    It's the equivalent of the US deciding to drop two A-bombs on Japan after they had already surrendered....rather than dropping the A-bombs to force surrender.

    Daenerys was willing to drop the a-bombs, metaphorically, to achieve victory, and it made her closest allies extremely uneasy.

    But what she did to Kings Landing was dropping the a-bombs after victory had already been secured, and the writing up to that point does not support that sudden switch.

    I’m not sure what timeframe things happened but certainly over a few episodes she lost 2 dragons, some really close confidants who she trusted (to death or betrayal), her lover and her claim to the throne. Given her dragons were her children and her rightful claim to the throne has been the main thing driving her for the whole show do you really think such a traumatic period needs more extensive exposition ?

    Is that not enough for anybody to snap? We don’t all have a dragon to help prop up damaged self esteem or feelings but if we did I’m guessing some would use it to smite perceived threats!


  • #838
    OneOfThem Stumbled
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭OneOfThem Stumbled


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »

    But having her murder the population of Kings Landing after they had surrendered is a break that was simply just not properly fleshed out or supported by the scripting.


    But if we didn't see Dany being a villain, how would it be set up for
    Jon to kill her
    next episode - GOT writers, probably.


  • #839
    Tazzimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,945 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    She kind of forgot they surrendered - D&D, probably


  • #840
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    I know Benioff says otherwise but to me she truly snapped and made the decision when she saw her best friend executed. She’s seething walking off in that final shot. She then has, is it two weeks? Brooding and paranoid of everyone around her and aware her advisor is trying to poison her and is actively betraying her. And fully and correctly aware that the throne will be taken from her by Westerosi lords forcing jon to claim it.

    ‘If I can’t have it. Nobody is going to have it’ but writ explosively large


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  • #841
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,955 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    I know Benioff says otherwise but to me she truly snapped and made the decision when she saw her best friend executed. She’s seething walking off in that final shot. She then has, is it two weeks? Brooding and paranoid of everyone around her and aware her advisor is trying to poison her and is actively betraying her. And fully and correctly aware that the throne will be taken from her by Westerosi lords forcing jon to claim it.

    ‘If I can’t have it. Nobody is going to have it’ but writ explosively large

    Jon's fault for not given her the ride :D


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