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Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

13567…40

Comments

  • #62
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Zorya wrote: »
    No, because this is true.

    However you may be compelled to say that people with a penis are women and people with a vagina are men.
    Not transwomen or transmen, but simply women or men.
    That is where you cannot be allowed to have divergent thought, it appears.

    The definition of true seems to be changing quite a lot these days.


  • #63
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    strandroad wrote: »
    Yes it's exactly like the Israel Folau situation. They were posting as their named and employer-affiliated selves. He was saying that gays go to hell, she was saying that you can only be what you are born as and no provisions should be made to accommodate you otherwise because you're a threat = the content stigmatised a particular group potentially present among the employers staff and most certainly present among their customer base. They received warnings but continued regardless.


    That is not what she said.


  • #64
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    strandroad wrote: »
    Yes it's exactly like the Israel Folau situation. They were posting as their named and employer-affiliated selves. He was saying that gays go to hell, she was saying that you can only be what you are born as and no provisions should be made to accommodate you otherwise because you're a threat = the content stigmatised a particular group potentially present among the employers staff and most certainly present among their customer base. They received warnings but continued regardless.

    It's not though. Saying gays go to hell is not the same as saying there needs to be continued open debate about gender ideology and gender self identification especially regarding female only spaces.
    Does nobody do nuance anymore?


  • #65
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭Augme


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    If I say, I believe that people with a penis are men and people with a vagina are women, can my employer sack me - legally?

    If so, what next..............

    I say I don't like cheese outside of work, can my employer decide they no longer want to employ me? Can they sack me - legally?


    I suppose legally it would depend and I'm not too sure. Most companies would have a clause saying if you bring the company in disrepute this can be a sackable offense. So, there might be a struggle with the cheese argument.


    Similarly, if I write a blog article saying I hate black people, think they are inferior and prone to committing crime compared to white people and my employer sees it, should they not be allowed do anything? What if the article becomes very popular and it's widely known I work for a certain company? What if I work with a lot of black people?


  • #66
    Candamir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    strandroad wrote: »
    Yes it's exactly like the Israel Folau situation. They were posting as their named and employer-affiliated selves. He was saying that gays go to hell, she was saying that you can only be what you are born as and no provisions should be made to accommodate you otherwise because you're a threat = the content stigmatised a particular group potentially present among the employers staff and most certainly present among their customer base. They received warnings but continued regardless.

    I didn’t read that anywhere in her article. In fact I read a lot of this:

    “Organisations concerned with international development and global social change seek to support a world where universal human rights are protected and where people can influence the decisions which affect their lives. This should include holding open the space to allow people to talk about the meaning of the word “women”, and about how the rights of both women and transgender people can be protected. People should not have to be brave to talk about this.


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  • #67
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    El_Bee wrote: »
    It should be in some cases, in many ways free speech was a mistake.

    Franco lives on in El Bee.


  • #68
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    STB. wrote: »
    That is not what she said.

    It is. She does not accept that you can transition to be of opposite identity and she campaigns to keep them out of shared spaces afterwards.

    There are many issues to sort out legally around sports, prisons etc of course. But her answer is to deny access completely and do not recognise the change.


  • #69
    ogsjw
    Site Banned Posts: 328 ✭✭ogsjw


    declan2693 wrote: »
    The liberals are the true fascist


    Are you american? So why are you talking like one?


  • #70
    TCM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 734 ✭✭✭TCM


    Brendan Delaney wrote:
    A man cannot turn himself into a woman, no matter what the progressive Taliban types want us to believe.

    ....and that is the simple FACT of the matter.


  • #71
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    strandroad wrote: »
    It is. She does not accept that you can transition to be of opposite identity and she campaigns to keep them out of shared spaces afterwards.

    There are many issues to sort out legally around sports, prisons etc of course. But her answer is to deny access completely and do not recognise the change.

    Can you quote her saying any of those things?

    Now I hope transwomen are not gagging to get into prison at all, but if they are sentenced, given that there have been rapes of women in prison by self ID transwomen, then access should not be allowed. It would be unsafe for transwomen to go to male prison too, so there have to be separate spaces. But do not just dump them in with women, that's not fair at all. Most self ID transwomen prisoners are sex offenders - statistically. There have been rapes in female shelters too.


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  • #72
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Zorya wrote: »
    It's not though. Saying gays go to hell is not the same as saying there needs to be continued open debate about gender ideology and gender self identification especially regarding female only spaces.
    Does nobody do nuance anymore?


    Whatever about nuances, it seems that the ability to read an opinion piece challenging an ideology with reasoned argument is impossible to some, especially when it comes to summarising what was actually said in that opinion piece. I guess that doesn't suit the agenda.
    strandroad wrote: »
    It is. She does not accept that you can transition to be of opposite identity and she campaigns to keep them out of shared spaces afterwards.

    There are many issues to sort out legally around sports, prisons etc of course. But her answer is to deny access completely and do not recognise the change.

    Read the article again. If that's what you took out of it, you may need more than glasses. "Accommodating" indeed !


  • #73
    ogsjw
    Site Banned Posts: 328 ✭✭ogsjw


    "An internationally renowned researcher on tax avoidance is believed to be the first person in Britain to lose her job for saying that transgender women are not women."

    If this is as black and white as she put it, it's not a great look. Not sure why some women think it's more acceptable for them to be transphobic just because they're women.
    Companies are judged by the staff they keep. It's a tough one. What if you want to disassociate yourself from hateful views, but the one spewing them is an employee? Personally I would've just not renewed her contract to avoid the court case, but I wonder how long she was contracted for...
    TCM wrote: »
    ....and that is the simple FACT of the matter.

    Only if you don't understand the difference between gender and sex.


  • #74
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Nah. Irish women reject this exclusionary nonsense https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/

    A blog that is not known outside of South Dublin cafes is hardly representative of Irish women.

    Maybe of a slice of Middle and Upper Class Irish women and even a few working class ones but it is a niche site.


  • #75
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Zorya wrote: »
    Can you quote her saying any of those things?

    That's her manifesto:

    https://medium.com/@MForstater/i-lost-my-job-for-speaking-up-about-womens-rights-2af2186ae84

    She does not accept that people who transitioned should be treated according to their new gender. I don't know what she proposes instead though. Some sort of limbo?


  • #76
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    ogsjw wrote: »
    "An internationally renowned researcher on tax avoidance is believed to be the first person in Britain to lose her job for saying that transgender women are not women."

    If this is as black and white as she put it, it's not a great look. Not sure why some women think it's more acceptable for them to be transphobic just because they're women.
    Companies are judged by the staff they keep. It's a tough one. What if you want to disassociate yourself from hateful views, but the one spewing them is an employee? Personally I would've just not renewed her contract to avoid the court case, but I wonder how long she was contracted for...



    Only if you don't understand the difference between gender and sex.


    You'd make a great strike breaker.

    Outlook just right.


  • #77
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Zorya wrote: »
    It's not though. Saying gays go to hell is not the same as saying there needs to be continued open debate about gender ideology and gender self identification especially regarding female only spaces.
    Does nobody do nuance anymore?

    That's not what she says. There is no debate, in her manifesto she states there there should be no provision for their new identity:

    "Yes people should of course be able to define their identity any way they like. But other people are not compelled to accept it as relating to any material reality."

    Now imagine that you are her employer with an inclusive policy, and you have warned her already. Do you accept a ticking bomb? You may have staff who transitioned and you have a duty to them too.


  • #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ogsjw wrote:
    Only if you don't understand the difference between gender and sex.

    How many genders are there?


  • #79
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    strandroad wrote: »
    That's her manifesto:

    https://medium.com/@MForstater/i-lost-my-job-for-speaking-up-about-womens-rights-2af2186ae84

    She does not accept that people who transitioned should be treated according to their new gender. I don't know what she proposes instead though. Some sort of limbo?

    Should a gay man be considered transphobic if he will not have sex with a female body? If that person is wholly biologically female but identifies as a man? Have they become an actual man by feeling that they are one? Do you personally have exclusionary dating practices based on body genotype or phenotype? Just asking for a friend.


    "Yes people should of course be able to define their identity any way they like. But other people are not compelled to accept it as relating to any material reality."

    What is wrong with that statement? If I want to have a biological child as a man or a woman, I will have to move forward on that plan according to the material reality of the body of the person I am having sex with, if only to maximise my chances. The material reality is that a trans person cannot reproduce. Science is a hard master.


  • #80
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How many genders are there?

    To answer that is to potentially hinder future expressions of gender.

    Gender is best replaced with ∞.


  • #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    strandroad wrote:
    "Yes people should of course be able to define their identity any way they like. But other people are not compelled to accept it as relating to any material reality."

    I see nothing controversial in that statement


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  • #82
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I see nothing controversial in that statement

    And yet that is precisely the statement that was considered hateful and offensive and caused her to lose her job. Really, it's a brave new world.


  • #83
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Zorya wrote: »
    And yet that is precisely the statement that was considered hateful and offensive and caused her to lose her job. Really, it's a brave new world.

    Non conformity to ones views is now considered a hateful rejection.


  • #84
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Danzy wrote:
    To answer that is to potentially hinder future expressions of gender.

    Danzy wrote:
    Gender is best replaced with ∞.

    Hahaha.

    Sadly some actually think that


  • #85
    ogsjw
    Site Banned Posts: 328 ✭✭ogsjw


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How many genders are there?


    What relation does that have to what you quoted?


  • #86
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Zorya wrote: »
    Should a gay man be considered transphobic if he will not have sex with a female body? If that person is wholly biologically female but identifies as a man? Have they become an actual man by feeling that they are one? Do you personally have exclusionary dating practices based on body genotype or phenotype? Just asking for a friend.


    "Yes people should of course be able to define their identity any way they like. But other people are not compelled to accept it as relating to any material reality."

    What is wrong with that statement? If I want to have a biological child as a man or a woman, I will have to move forward on that plan according to the material reality of the body of the person I am having sex with, if only to maximise my chances. The material reality is that a trans person cannot reproduce. Science is a hard master.

    Where is this whole sex thing coming from? If someone unwanted pesters you it's harassment or assault and should be dealt with as such.

    Material reality as she is referring to it would bar trans people from accessing spaces or services. She counts a trans woman panellist as a man etc.


  • #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ogsjw wrote:
    What relation does that have to what you quoted?

    Because I am interested in knowing. As someone who obviously knows more about the subject, I was hoping you could tell me.


  • #88
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I see nothing controversial in that statement

    Then imagine that you are her coworker who transitioned but she still counts you under your past gender like she does with this panellist, campaigns against you using spaces or services etc because you are a threat to their regular users.
    Do you think that she would be kept as an employee?


  • #89
    StinkyMunkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭StinkyMunkey


    As I've said before, regardless of what that thing between your ears is telling you, your either born male or female (with some small exceptions).

    You can identify as being Jesus, but that doesn't make you Jesus. It doesn't matter who you think you are, it doesn't change what you are.

    I've no isssue with people wanting to identify as male or female, I'll respect their choice and act towards them accordlying.

    An individuals thought process should never supersede official information describing someone's biology. Just because you identify as a different sex to what you are biologically, it doesn't give you the right to demand others have to pamper to your ever wish. As with most things in life, there has to be compromises.

    Trans people will have to accept the fact that there will always be a limit to how far society or a countries infrastructure can accommodate them. It's not purely about acceptance, it's about the practicality of catering for the minority at the expense of the majority.

    Punishing someone for wanting to in a rational manner discuss their reservations about a certain subject is just plain wrong. Just as someone has a right to identify as they wish, someone has the right to question the demands imposed upon them by someone else's choices.


  • #90
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    throughout history the vehemence of the suppression of dissenters has correlated directly with the weakness of the ideology. nothing new here.


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  • #91
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    strandroad wrote: »
    That's not what she says. There is no debate, in her manifesto she states there there should be no provision for their new identity:


    A "Manifesto" ? That is not what medium.com is about. Its an opinion piece on an online journalistic platform.

    There will always be debate as long as we have those recklessly hand picking what they disagreed with and quoting in isolation without reading (or refusing to) the whole piece.

    That's what you did. You obviously have an agenda and are not open to reasoned argument. Your fake summarisation of the article coupled with your description of an opinion piece as a manifesto, wont fly here.


This discussion has been closed.
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