Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]

RickBlaine · 30-04-2019 03:02PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

I've actually been thinking about this and y'know what, Chris Hemsworth has been the stand out character and actor for the entire MCU.

We all expect a lot from RDJ, who is always amazing. But I can't help that feel that his actual acting range hasn't been as great as it could have been overall, despite the great character arch itself.

Hemsworth though, especially in IW and Endgame showed some real chops. While we all had a great laugh with his sudden weight gain, we saw a genuinely sad scene between his him and his mother, how he'd basically all but given up and being a King or Hero.

In Thor we saw total loss, his girlfriend, his mother, his father, his brother, his home, his planet and then the vast majority of the remainders were taken out too.

He had the perfect chance to kill Thanos and save the world before the snap, but his aim was off.

Hemsworth portrayed that beautifully.

I agree which is why I wish his PTSD was played more seriously and less for laughs. Like ending the mother scene with his mother saying "eat a salad" felt very very cheap.

One of my favourite moments in the whole MCU is his talk with Rocket in IF. Such great work by Hemsworth.

Floppybits · 30-04-2019 03:31PM

Yeah wasn't too happy with what they did with Hulk and Thor and the bit in the middle of battle with all the women, I was expecting sister sledge to start singing "We are family, I have all my sisters with me".

Ethereal Cereal · 30-04-2019 03:44PM

Yea, that fat comedic Thor did not sit well with me at all.

I remember the scene in IW between himself and Rocket, about what could he possibly have left to loose. I thought that was one of the standout scenes in the movie. Then when I saw Rocket in the trailer (with the Hulk CG'd out) visiting Thors shack, I thought this would be a great opportunity for further character development. Instead it was an unconvincing fat suit played for laughs.

I also would have liked to seen some internal conflict with the Hulk. Banner seems to have just accepted now that he is a monster.

Sonics2k · 30-04-2019 03:58PM

RickBlaine wrote: »

I agree which is why I wish his PTSD was played more seriously and less for laughs. Like ending the mother scene with his mother saying "eat a salad" felt very very cheap.

One of my favourite moments in the whole MCU is his talk with Rocket in IF. Such great work by Hemsworth.

To me, that actually made sense for the character to become a fat, lazy layabout.

He's a thousand years old, dedicated a huge chunk of his life to becoming a physical powerhouse. At the end though, it turns out all his work was totally useless, so he binged on junk and stopped working out.

From a psychological point of view, I think it actually makes more sense because in spite of himself, Thor is often a big goofball and softie, so he falls into something that makes him happy and 'forget' the pain he feels.

Penn · 30-04-2019 04:11PM

Joe Russo did a Q&A for the China premiere
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/

Some of the interesting questions/answers imo:

Q: Can you get the soul your sacrificed for the Soul Stone back when you return it?

A: No, the process is irreversible. Even if you have returned it to its original location, you wouldn't be able to get the person back. In fact, it's not really returning the stone, more like put it back properly. The tribute soul for the soul stone will forever be sealed in that place, therefore Black Widow is gone forever.

Q: How did Thanos bring his army to the future?

A: There is a guy called Maw in his army, he was a great wizard. Thanos himself was a brilliant genius as well. Those two easily reverse engineered and mass produced Pym Particles.

Q: What about those people who got dusted? What did those five years mean to them? Why didn't they grow older when undusted?

A: Yes, those people whom was lucky to survive the snap are 5 years older than the people who just got back. The reason Spider Man saw his friend again in high school at the end was simply because his friends was unfortunately also dusted like Spider Man was. Of course, there are people in his grade whom didn't die and they are probably already in colleges by now. To those dusted people, they had no conscious in these past 5 years. They didn't know what happened. It's as if they had just woke up from a long sleep. The only one who was aware about how many years has passed was Doctor Strange, because he has already seen that when he was time mediating on Titan. Parker's reunion with Ned was a touching moment. There are also people whom indeed moved on but suddenly was reunited with their lost ones. Yeah it's kind a complicated world now.

Q: EG's plot, is it a parallel universe or a closed time loop?

A: Nope, not a time loop. Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can't change the future by simply going back to past. But it's possible to create a different alternate future. It's not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.

So Cap going back to Peggy created a new alternate reality, and he then came from that one back to the main one to give Sam the shield.

It's not exactly a great explanation, but it at least closes it out anyway.

Mitch Connor · 30-04-2019 04:16PM

Penn wrote: »

Joe Russo did a Q&A for the China premiere
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/

Some of the interesting questions/answers imo:

So Cap going back to Peggy created a new alternate reality, and he then came from that one back to the main one to give Sam the shield.

It's not exactly a great explanation, but it at least closes it out anyway.

So the issue with Cap is the fact he was on the bench rather than jumping back to the time portal he left from. If he had materialised as old cap on the plate it would have been easier to understand I suppose, but less of a scene.

Necro · 30-04-2019 04:29PM

Watched it Sunday night and really enjoyed parts of it.

I felt the pontificating went on way too long tbh, and after the initial LOL about Thor it got old really fast. Hulk as a bystander was also pretty stupid imo.

The final battle though was brilliant, and the deaths were handled well. I haven't followed the MCU religiously and some of the standalone movies I actually think are awful (Black Panther, Doctor Strange - I'm looking at you two in particular) but Tony's death in particular hit me in the feels.

The Black Widow/Hawkeye stuff got a bit silly though. 'The battle to commit suicide' - yeah, great message to send out folks.

I figured they were going to do it with the reverse snap thing, but I kind of wish they didn't. Feels like the end of Infinity War was all for nothing tbh - which was by far the better film as well imo.

Overall a good, not great climax to the series.

NuMarvel · 30-04-2019 04:41PM

Penn wrote: »

Joe Russo did a Q&A for the China premiere
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/

Some of the interesting questions/answers imo:

So Cap going back to Peggy created a new alternate reality, and he then came from that one back to the main one to give Sam the shield.

It's not exactly a great explanation, but it at least closes it out anyway.

It fits with what others in the thread have said though, that travelling to the past creates new timelines and doesn't affect your own timline and history. Just wish that Banner could been clearer about that when he was dissing BTTF2 (No I'm not going to get over it!!:D).

Presumably Old Man Cap returns to his own adopted timeline after he hands the shield to Sam. It also means he might still have Mjolnir as he didn't have to return that to protect the timeline.

Patser · 30-04-2019 05:46PM

Never even thought to question how Thanos managed to get such a huge army through with him to the future - massive space ships and all. Serious amounts of Pym particles that.

Penn · 30-04-2019 05:58PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

It fits with what others in the thread have said though, that travelling to the past creates new timelines and doesn't affect your own timline and history. Just wish that Banner could been clearer about that when he was dissing BTTF2 (No I'm not going to get over it!!:D).

Presumably Old Man Cap returns to his own adopted timeline after he hands the shield to Sam. It also means he might still have Mjolnir as he didn't have to return that to protect the timeline.

He would have had to return mjolnir as Thor from The Dark World would have needed it back (as that would have been the version of Mjolnir that Thor took with him to 2023, so had to be returned to him).

Agent Coulson · 30-04-2019 06:54PM

6 days in and it is the 10th biggest grossing film of all time.

NuMarvel · 30-04-2019 07:51PM

Penn wrote: »

He would have had to return mjolnir as Thor from The Dark World would have needed it back (as that would have been the version of Mjolnir that Thor took with him to 2023, so had to be returned to him).

"Our" Dark World Thor would have always had it, because Endgame Thor taking Mjolnir created an alternate timeline that doesn't affect "our" timeline.

The only changes to the past that had to be fixed were returning the stones to where they were taken, due to their role in protecting the timestream. Cap might still have returned Mjolnir anyway but he wouldn't have had to, because Mjolnir's absence doesn't change anything that happened during or after Dark World.

Zero-Cool · 30-04-2019 08:09PM

Explaining time travel in Endgame

tenor.gif?itemid=8129861

RickBlaine · 30-04-2019 08:38PM

It is literally impossible to explain the time travel plot without massive plot holes and inconsistencies. But I think this is one of the few movies where you can overlook the big issues with the plot because the rest is so good. It seems the Russos' priorities were characters first, entertainment second and the plot a very distant third. The first two are so strong I think the plot issues don't really matter. It is just a frame on which to hang the first two.

TheValeyard · 30-04-2019 08:40PM

Patser wrote: »

Never even thought to question how Thanos managed to get such a huge army through with him to the future - massive space ships and all. Serious amounts of Pym particles that.

Timey Wimey, wibbly wobbly.

micks_address · 30-04-2019 09:06PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

Agree. First scene was funny but they turned him into comedy sidekick for the movie. For me Thor has had the best origin story in the movies and Hemsworth has been terrific in the role. He was such a unique character overall that Cap becoming a knock-off Thor was a bit annoying.

I enjoyed it as my wife was disgusted he wasn't his usual ripped self.. talk about sexism... If I drooled over scarlet witch I'd be an awful hoor

TerrorFirmer · 30-04-2019 10:00PM

micks_address wrote: »

I enjoyed it as my wife was disgusted he wasn't his usual ripped self.. talk about sexism... If I drooled over scarlet witch I'd be an awful hoor

The best part for me was when he leaned back on the chair and his vast beer gut still had a six pack.

Loved washed-up bum Thor. Loved their committment to it for the entire duration of the movie even more.

Not for everyone understandably but I genuinely admire their committment.

ibFoxer · 30-04-2019 10:14PM

micks_address wrote: »

I enjoyed it as my wife was disgusted he wasn't his usual ripped self.. talk about sexism... If I drooled over scarlet witch I'd be an awful hoor

"IF"

kerplun k · 30-04-2019 10:39PM

After the Russo Q&A, I’ve lost any hope that Black Widow is alive and the solo movie wouldn’t be an origin story. From what I’m hearing, it will definitely be an origin. The question is, do people really wanna see an origin story about a dead character with no future. Maybe they’re setting up another Black Widow. But still, It’s a hard sell and personally I’d have zero interest in it.

TerrorFirmer · 30-04-2019 10:42PM

kerplun k wrote: »

After the Russo Q&A, I’ve lost any hope that Black Widow is alive and the solo movie wouldn’t be an origin story. From what I’m hearing, it will definitely be an origin. The question is, do people really wanna see an origin story about a dead character with no future. Maybe they’re setting up another Black Widow. But still, It’s a hard sell and personally I’d have zero interest in it.

A few years ago, maybe - even likely. Now, post Endgame? Zero interest, speaking for myself.

A BW origin story would be a misfire at this point in the timeline.

Ethereal Cereal · 01-05-2019 06:44AM

I've no idea why they killed her off, it seemed needless, regardless of the fact that she has a movie coming out.

An origin story would be a disaster for her, it's not like she has a set of super powers that need explaining. I would have liked a dual time line story, part in current day, part in maybe the Budapest mission or something. Along the line of "The Debt"

Zubeneschamali · 01-05-2019 08:10AM

RickBlaine wrote: »

It is literally impossible to explain the time travel plot without massive plot holes and inconsistencies.

Reading the Russo Q&A, they did have a consistent scheme in mind, they just messed it up a bit in the final movie. If Prof Hulk had been clearer, and a line or two had been changed in Tony's chat with his Dad and Steve's bench scene, it would have been completely fine.

They also say that Black Widow is dead and it is not reversible, but that is now nonsense - Steve could just grab a fresh Black Widow from some past reality and bring her forward. Vision, too, or Tony, or whoever. Hell, go get 100 Captain Marvels, and they can handle the hero sh!t from now on.

paulbok · 01-05-2019 08:23AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Reading the Russo Q&A, they did have a consistent scheme in mind, they just messed it up a bit in the final movie. If Prof Hulk had been clearer, and a line or two had been changed in Tony's chat with his Dad and Steve's bench scene, it would have been completely fine.

They also say that Black Widow is dead and it is not reversible, but that is now nonsense - Steve could just grab a fresh Black Widow from some past reality and bring her forward. Vision, too, or Tony, or whoever. Hell, go get 100 Captain Marvels, and they can handle the hero sh!t from now on.

They really need to shut down the time travel get out they now have, for those reasons you outlined alone.
A sub plot of it damaging space time each time it's used would be a reasonable explanation for not using it again.
For their own sakes with continuity as well.

Perhaps messing with time is what summons the Eternals in the next phase.

NuMarvel · 01-05-2019 08:44AM

paulbok wrote: »

They really need to shut down the time travel get out they now have, for those reasons you outlined alone.
A sub plot of it damaging space time each time it's used would be a reasonable explanation for not using it again.
For their own sakes with continuity as well.

Perhaps messing with time is what summons the Eternals in the next phase.

It sets up Kang as a future big bad, if they want to go that way. All the messing with time in Endgame results in Kang conquering a future alternate Earth and he decides to expand his empire to other Earths. And they could tie the FF into it, because of Kang's connections to Reed Richards. They could even adapt the Gathering story arc, in part anyway.

And I'll stop geeking out now.

Necro · 01-05-2019 09:08AM

Doesn't the whole 'Black Widow is dead, that's it' point in that interview fall down with Gamora now running around alive and well?

As someone said they can literally grab a Black Widow from any point in time and bring her back to current day.

It's why the whole reverse snap thing to me seems a cop out to bring back a load of people who were dramatically killed at the end of IW.

If they really had to go that way would it not have been better to have Thanos still in possession of the stones in present day rather than destroying them 'just cos'.

NuMarvel · 01-05-2019 09:23AM

Necro wrote: »

Doesn't the whole 'Black Widow is dead, that's it' point in that interview fall down with Gamora now running around alive and well?

As someone said they can literally grab a Black Widow from any point in time and bring her back to current day.

It's why the whole reverse snap thing to me seems a cop out to bring back a load of people who were dramatically killed at the end of IW.

If they really had to go that way would it not have been better to have Thanos still in possession of the stones in present day rather than destroying them 'just cos'.

I haven't read the full Q &A transcript, but I'm taking it that the "Black Widow is dead" line is referring to not being able to resurrect her after her sacrifice on Vormir. Sure they could use time travel to bring back a past version, but I suspect they will rarely if ever do that. Otherwise, the possibility of death carries no meaning in any future movies.

Zubeneschamali · 01-05-2019 09:38AM

NuMarvel wrote: »

Otherwise, the possibility of death carries no meaning in any future movies.

That is literally what this background means. There are an infinite number of identical Tony Starks out there, so if one dies, there are, let's see, yep, still an infinite number of them. Death means nothing.

megaten · 01-05-2019 10:27AM

Necro wrote: »

Doesn't the whole 'Black Widow is dead, that's it' point in that interview fall down with Gamora now running around alive and well?

As someone said they can literally grab a Black Widow from any point in time and bring her back to current day.

It's why the whole reverse snap thing to me seems a cop out to bring back a load of people who were dramatically killed at the end of IW.

If they really had to go that way would it not have been better to have Thanos still in possession of the stones in present day rather than destroying them 'just cos'.

I mean not really? Your basically kidnapping a different version of them. They're not really the same person you knew. Gamora attacks Star Lord the minute he touchers her because they have no history together.

Related to time travel shenanigans I think Nebula was one of may favourite parts of this movie. She played a major part in the story culminating in literally killing her past self showing the gulf in what she was and what she has become. The small bit with her and Rhodey when they retrieve the power stone is great too.

Necro · 01-05-2019 10:42AM

megaten wrote:

I mean not really? Your basically kidnapping a different version of them. They're not really the same person you knew. Gamora attacks Star Lord the minute he touchers her because they have no history together.

Yes but the paradox comes into play with Thanos and his army coming from the past to the future and being defeated. If anything she should have disappeared with Tony's snap as well so as not to create that sort of issue.

megaten · 01-05-2019 10:48AM

Necro wrote: »

Yes but the paradox comes into play with Thanos and his army coming from the past to the future and being defeated. If anything she should have disappeared with Tony's snap as well so as not to create that sort of issue.

Your thinking to hard when it comes to time travel. They movie goes out of its way to say don't worry about paradox's.

Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

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Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]