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Vegans and soil health

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    #32
    henryporter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭henryporter


    gozunda wrote: »
    You never answered my query as to your comment btw



    Perhaps you would clarify ...

    Otherwise, I'll just have to assume lower standards of discourse are becoming the norm....

    Nor you mine - preferable to feign offense than support the argument? Must be the Joe Healy school of debate?


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    #33
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,432 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    There would still be plenty of organic fertilizers, crop residues composted do a grand job as do decomposition of cover crops. Dual cropping traditional grains with legumes will give you more nitrogen in the soil than cow poop ever will.

    The idea that without FYM you have no organic nutrient augmentation is plainly incorrect.

    What's dual cropping?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #34
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    henryporter wrote: »
    Nor you mine - preferable to feign offense than support the argument? Must be the Joe Healy school of debate?

    It's a question with regard to your original comment - perhaps rather than grandstanding - you could answer it.
    Is there reason for the tone of condescension in that comment or am I picking you up wrong?

    I could throw jibes as well - but I wouldn't lower myself tbh.


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    #35
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Markcheese wrote: »
    What's dual cropping?

    Growing two crops at once in the same area. It's a fairly self evident name. You could also call it intercropping if there's more than two crops. Throw in some wild flowers along medians to attract predators of pests and maybe some cover crops between seasons and you have a good old fashioned CSA package going that have your soil microbes and fungi having a grand auld hooli.


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    #36
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Growing two crops at once in the same area. It's a fairly self evident name. You could also call it intercropping if there's more than two crops. Throw in some wild flowers along medians to attract predators of pests and maybe some cover crops between seasons and you have a good old fashioned CSA package going that have your soil microbes and fungi having a grand auld hooli.

    Land based animals and especially large herbivores have played an integral part of soil formation and replensishment since long before humans evolved. In many countries livestock still fulfil many of the same roles with regard to soil viability and fertility that their precedents once did.

    The arrogance of a very small number of humans who claim to know better and now wish to dictate that such symbiosis should be erased simply because they dont like meat goes well beyond the incredible tbh.


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    #37
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    gozunda wrote: »
    Land based animals and especially herbivores have played an integral part of soil formation and replensishment since long before humans evolved. In many countries livestock still fulfil many of the same roles with regard to soil viability and fertility that their precedents once did.

    The arrogance of a very small number of humans who now wish to dictate that such symbiosis should be erased simply because they dont like meat goes beyond the incredible tbh.


    Jesus you have no hint of irony in this, it's amazing.

    How much inorganic fertilizer and other nutrients do you add to your grasslands every year? How much slurry do you spread? How many acres do you mow with a combine? How often do you cut back hedgerows?

    Everything you're doing is destroying any semblance of natural symbiosis that night have existed in the past.

    The idea that your method of farming is "natural" or "holistic" or better for soil health than organic crop farming is, frankly, laughable. Organic beef production with proper FYM management would be a giant step forward from "traditional" intensive beef rearing.


    As an aside I'm bit a believer in organic farming as a savour of all, it's useful where it's useful but it's not suitable everywhere.

    I work in the promotion of climate smart agricultural practices. I often advise farmers in areas with soil degradation or erosion issues to use FYM from animals and crop residues to improve soil health, and in the cases of many sub Saharan farmers to use micro dosing of inorganic fertilizer alongside FYM when planting in low/no tillage systems to help the regeneration of soil nutrients in increase their productivity and food security.

    In Ireland, climate smart and economically smart practices would include using (and wasting) less inorganic fert. Having FYM management that isn't straight out of the 17th century, stop over spreading slurry and ruining water courses, stop hedgerow destruction, and cut down herd sizes and stop over producing beef to the point where the sector is completely dependent on subsidies. In the next decade the Dairy sector is going to have a dramatic change in its makeup, lots of farmers will go to the wall. The beer sector isn't far behind it.

    Adapt or die lads, the choices are your own.


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    #38
    yellowlabrador
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭yellowlabrador


    It's a myth that vegan or vegetarian diets would stop cruelty or save the planet.
    https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/women-india-pay-price-cashew-nut-demand-vegan-diets-rise-9110415/


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    #39
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Jesus you have no hint of irony in this, it's amazing.

    How much inorganic fertilizer and other nutrients do you add to your grasslands every year? How much slurry do you spread? How many acres do you mow with a combine? How often do you cut back hedgerows?
    Everything you're doing is destroying any semblance of natural symbiosis that night have existed in the past. The idea that your method of farming is "natural" or "holistic" or better for soil health than organic crop farming is, frankly, laughable. Organic beef production with proper FYM management would be a giant step forward from "traditional" intensive beef rearing.

    To paraphrase ...

    Jesus you have no hint of irony in this, it's amazing.

    Do you believe for one moment than industrial scale arable and horticultural production do not involve massive amounts of inorganic fertilizer and other nutrients added every year. In arable areas do you believe that no slurry is spread? How many acres do you think is mowed with a combine? How often hedgerows cut back or removed to create giant fields for cropping ?

    Everything humans have done has changed of natural symbiosis that might have existed in the past. And yet livestock in replacing wild herbivores still does play an important part in maintaining soil vitality and fertility

    That you believe that industrial scale cropping which would replace livestock would be "natural" or "holistic" or better for soil health is, frankly laughable.

    And before you go on another rant - I do not disagree with organic practices. What I do disagree with is the ridiculous notion that veganism will somehow bring in some magical agricultural utopia of unicorns and fairy dust. Or as one deranged commentator put it "nothing gets harmed on a broccoli farm' :rolleyes:


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    #40
    Unearthly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,984 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    yellowlabrador wrote: »
    It's a myth that vegan or vegetarian diets would stop cruelty or save the planet.
    https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/women-india-pay-price-cashew-nut-demand-vegan-diets-rise-9110415/

    Ah here

    A report originating from the lowest common denominator paper Daily Mail


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    #41
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Unearthly wrote: »
    Ah here

    A report originating from the lowest common denominator paper Daily Mail

    Heres a similar report from one of many plant eaters favourite newspaper

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/nov/02/cashew-nut-workers-pay-conditions-profits

    Is that good enough?


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    #42
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Are Cashew nuts the preserve of vegans now?

    What the actual feck lads?

    Story: people in developing countries being exploited so westerners can have cheap things.

    Story in your heads:. OMG VEGANS ARE KILLING INDIAN WOMEN!!!

    and what does it have to do with soil health? Unless you want me to have a chat with ye how western diets and consumption are driving climate change that is leading to wide spread soil erosion and massive risks of desertification in India?


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    #43
    Unearthly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,984 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    gozunda wrote: »
    Heres a similar report from one of many plant eaters favourite newspaper

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/nov/02/cashew-nut-workers-pay-conditions-profits

    Is that good enough?

    Yes it's a more mature, less sensationalist report that highlights a problem but doesn't blame vegans for it


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    #44
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Are Cashew nuts the preserve of vegans now?What the actual feck lads?Story: people in developing countries being exploited so westerners can have cheap things. Story on your heads:. OMG VEGANS ARE KILLING INDIAN WOMEN!!!and what does it have to do with soil health? Unless you want me to have a chat with ye how western diets and consumption are driving climate change that is leading to wide spread soil erosion and massive risks of desertification in India?

    It's a news story. No need to loose the head tbh.

    As an update before going on that rant about how 'western diets and consumption are driving climate change' you may be interested to learn that China is the the number one emitter of greenhouse gases, a world leading importer of soybeans from South America oh and India, Brazil and China have more cattle than any western country. (And yes China imports large quantities of Brazillian meat for domestic consumption as well).

    But of course all this is the fault of us bad nasty westerners with our western diets and consumption driving climate change

    Even though the worlds number one cause of greenhouse emissions happens to be transport and fossil fuel use. But then none of that suits the propaganda ...


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    #45
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Unearthly wrote: »
    Yes it's a more mature, less sensationalist report that highlights a problem but doesn't blame vegans for it

    Is that the same newspaper which is paid to publish anti farming / news stories by a vegan think tank?

    https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/watch-out-watch-out-the-guardians-about.278002/


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    #46
    Unearthly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,984 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    gozunda wrote: »
    Is that the same newspaper which is paid to publish anti farming / news stories by a vegan think tank?

    No idea. Couldn't care less


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    #47
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    lalababa wrote: »
    Irish people eat too much meat from a human health POV. Irish beef farmers are making a loss. Their losses are eating into their farm payments (BPS). Irish meat processers have a stranglehold on cattle availability. They have a massive supply source in a closed market and can dictate price. Fertilizer and pesticides are over used and detrimental to the environment.
    These farmers should cut way down to almost minimum on suckler and beef numbers, and use no fertilizer or pesticides. They then would become organic. The factory supply would tighten up and the price would increase, there would be an increase also for organic. The soil environment would improve. The meat would be "healthier/tastier". Will this happen..sort of..some logical farmers will....alot won't...because it's seen as a comedown to decrease farm head. Then add the increase in numberd of calfs from Dairy to beef.

    Organic isn't healthier. A myth built on the natural fallacy.


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    #48
    yellowlabrador
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭yellowlabrador


    Are there any vegan gardeners who have grown all their own food, and have managed this for several years?A lot of our imported food is grown under terrible non sustainable conditions. I'm thinking avocados, bananas, soya, various nuts, grains, so a local diet only. I know beekeeping is not allowed but what about worm farms?


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    #49
    henryporter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭henryporter


    gozunda wrote: »
    It's a question with regard to your original comment - perhaps rather than grandstanding - you could answer it.



    I could throw jibes as well - but I wouldn't lower myself tbh.

    A valid question asking you to provide any evidence for the 'facts' you espouse is neither condescending nor grandstanding, but of course it's easier to feel maligned than respond civilly to the original question.


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    #50
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    henryporter wrote: »
    A valid question asking you to provide any evidence for the 'facts' you espouse is neither condescending nor grandstanding, but of course it's easier to feel maligned than respond civilly to the original question.
    Is there reason for the tone of condescension in that comment or am I picking you up wrong?

    I wasn't the only one who called that out btw. I asked you to clarify your comment - you didn't bother and then attempted a smart answer.

    You may wish to look up the meaning of the word 'civilly', as from your first and subsequent comments I can only assume have no idea what it means. Thanks all the same.


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    #51
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    This conversation has gone down a well worn path.
    Irish farmers are improving their practices regarding soil health, dribble bar spreading slurry and targeted use of fertiliser. Irish farmers aren't overusing fertilisers with half of soil samples results showing poor fertility.
    The removal of hedgerows happened decades ago and any farmer seen doing so now has to plant an equal length somewhere else. The removal of the hedges allowed for the increased use of mechanization which was necessary in a high labour cost environment.
    There are small farms that use free labour from the woofing organisation that would fail without it.


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    #52
    henryporter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭henryporter


    gozunda wrote: »
    I wasn't the only one who called you out btw. I asked you to clarify your comment - you didn't bother and then attempted a smart answer.

    You may wish to look up the meaning of the word 'civilly', as from your first and subsequent comments I can only assume have no idea what it means. Thanks all the same.

    Does this mean we can't be friends


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    #53
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Tilikum17 do not speculate on a posters identity, it is against site rules.


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    #54
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    gozunda wrote: »
    Much of the anti-farming videos which have been posted presume much by those who evidently do not have the first clue about growing crops on a commercial scale.

    The presumption that less land will be used as what is being fed to animals will be diverted to humans - ignores the fact that much of that which is fed to animals are the by-products of the human food industry. Added to that are the crops not fit for human consumption and the vast areas of climatic grassland only suitable for grazing. * But such facts are most often blatantly ignored...

    For those genuinely interested *
    A new study by FAO and published in Global Food Security found that livestock rely primarily on forages, crop residues and by-products that are not edible to humans and that certain production systems contribute directly to global food security, as they produce more highly valuable nutrients for humans, such as proteins, than they consume....

    See:
    http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html


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    #55
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    lalababa wrote: »
    Irish people eat too much meat from a human health POV.

    How much is too much? All you can safely say is that irish people eat too much , too much processed food, too much sugar, too much processed grains.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #56
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    yellowlabrador wrote: »
    Are there any vegan gardeners who have grown all their own food, and have managed this for several years?

    yellowlabrador, none do. That’s not the aim. We’ve grown veganically on this acre for over 20 years but only stuff we eat a lot of. There’s no point in growing those bits and pieces of food that are essential for nutritional variety, it’s too much hard work. Leave those odds and ends to specialist growers.

    My kind of rough ideal for a varied diet is about 50% from within 50 kilometres, 30% within 300 kilometres, 15% within 1,500 kilometres and the other 5% worldwide.

    So we just grow lots of toms, peas, broad beans, onions, garlic, kale, spinach, salad leaves and herbs plus half a dozen varieties of spud; throw in grapes, apples, pears, rhubarb and berries - then look to other local growers for variety - and we’re getting there.

    None of this requires the input of other species, though I accept some growers are hooked on shît. :eek:


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    #57
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    In Ireland, climate smart and economically smart practices would include using (and wasting) less inorganic fert. Having FYM management that isn't straight out of the 17th century, stop over spreading slurry and ruining water courses, stop hedgerow destruction, and cut down herd sizes and stop over producing beef to the point where the sector is completely dependent on subsidies

    Heh heh. I always know when rain is due - the farmers start spreading slurry. :(:D:D:D


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    #58
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    davidjtaylor wrote: »

    ...None of this requires the input of other species, though I accept some growers are hooked on shît. :eek:

    And what exactly is wrong with sh!t? Animals have been excreting and replenishing soils for as long as there has been life on earth. Strange that we humans are becoming so cerebral and sanitised that some can no longer deal with this basic fact of life. And I know there can be problems with slurry, however objecting to all forms of ****e such as FYM - makes no sense whatsoever. But there you go ...
    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    Heh heh. I always know when rain is due - the farmers start spreading slurry. :(:D:D:D

    You can be guaranteed that it's going to rain in Ireland often and when you least expect it. Though tbh you really dont seem to like living in the countryside tbh ....:confused:


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    #59
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    And it's actually advised not to spread in dry weather


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    #60
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    jh79 wrote: »
    Organic isn't healthier. A myth built on the natural fallacy.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935119300246


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    #61
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935119300246

    Paper doesn't show organic is healthier, unless you can equate the reduced levels to actual health outcomes my claim still stands.


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