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A dog is a pig is a bear is a boy.

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  • 14-04-2019 1:35am
    #1
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭


    Andy Merrick's inauguration speech to Victoria's parliament.
    Andy a long-term vegan has continuously campaigned against animal injustice.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sRPAXpb7pPg


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    #2
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    Fair play to him. In the land of the barbie!


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    #3
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    I don't get the vegan logic, if animals weren't farmed they would serve no purpose and wouldn't exist.
    A cow is better to have lived a life looked after properly with kindness and slaughtered in the most human way is better than never have lived at all


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    #4
    henryporter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭henryporter


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    I don't get the vegan logic, if animals weren't farmed they would serve no purpose and wouldn't exist.
    A cow is better to have lived a life looked after properly with kindness and slaughtered in the most human way is better than never have lived at all

    I presume from that statement that you haven’t watched the video in the OP which centers on the idea of compassion towards all animals. Anyone who believes in this day and age that farmed animals are all treated humanely would need to start educating themselves a bit.


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    #5
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    I don't get the vegan logic, if animals weren't farmed they would serve no purpose and wouldn't exist.

    Right, so let’s apply your logic, shall we? Dolphins or woodlice or what have you shouldn’t exist, because we don’t farm them.


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    #6
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,242 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    Right, so let’s apply your logic, shall we? Dolphins or woodlice or what have you shouldn’t exist, because we don’t farm them.

    Reductio ad absurdum.


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    #7
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,141 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    Right, so let’s apply your logic, shall we? Dolphins or woodlice or what have you shouldn’t exist, because we don’t farm them.




    Well it's silly to use that try to say his point is completely untrue.


    Cows and sheep (or domesticated pigs) would not survive in the "wild". Or at least not in very large numbers.

    Fair enough say it would be better for the planet to have no cows - but you can't pretend that they would be all out lazing in nice green pastures if people didn't eat them or make use of them in some way.


    You are of course welcome to purchase any land that is for sale and allow whatever animals you want to roam free on it. But if you buy a cow, you need to remember that generations of selective breeding have led to certain traits which need human attention/maintenance.


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    #8
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    endacl wrote: »
    Reductio ad absurdum.

    I’m only repeating what he claims - that a species goes extinct if it isn’t farmed.


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    #9
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    There would be no cows in the" wilds" of Ireland if we stopped using them for milk meat and leather there wouldn't be a cow in Ireland.
    Does anyone disagree with this?


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    #10
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    Right, so let’s apply your logic, shall we? Dolphins or woodlice or what have you shouldn’t exist, because we don’t farm them.

    Come on really, at least be honest do you want the earth's population of cows wiped out?


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    #11
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Come on really, at least be honest do you want the earth's population of cows wiped out?

    One thing I always am is honest. Don’t make assumptions about me.

    As to what I want: the deliberate use of all animals, by humans, to stop.


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    #12
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    One thing I always am is honest. Don’t make assumptions about me.

    As to what I want: the deliberate use of all animals, by humans, to stop.

    So what happens to the animals?
    No farmers no cow's surely a life for the for the food chain better than no life at all?


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    #13
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,141 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    One thing I always am is honest. Don’t make assumptions about me.

    As to what I want: the deliberate use of all animals, by humans, to stop.




    Fair enough.


    Kill all cats and dogs as well. Especially guide dogs who have to work for humans.



    I say kill all cats because wild cats are partly responsible for the decimation of bird species around the world.


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    #14
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    @Donald Trump: Why should we kill cats? What’s it got to do with us?


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    #15
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,141 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    @Donald Trump: Why should we kill cats? What’s it got to do with us?




    Cats in the wild kill lots of birds (and small mammals).
    There are environmentalists that want to do away with outdoor cats
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/moral-cost-of-cats-180960505/
    The reason there are so many cats is because of people


    And if other people don't want cats indoors for human pets then you can't have any cats indoors or outdoors


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    #16
    Anteayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 886 ✭✭✭Anteayer


    Given the conditions that some animals are raised in, I'd say quite a few would be a lot better off had they never existed.

    While some farming tries to be humane, globally more of it really doesn't bother at all. I'm particularly talking about areas like intensive poultry farming which can be really inhumane. I mean from hatchling to the end of their lives many of those animals don't experience anything other than an exploitive factory situation. It's a far cry from traditional farmyard hens.


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    #17
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,141 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Anteayer wrote: »
    Given the conditions that some animals are raised in, I'd say quite a few would be a lot better off had they never existed.

    While some farming tries to be humane, globally more of it really doesn't bother at all. I'm particularly talking about areas like intensive poultry farming which can be really inhumane. I mean from hatchling to the end of their lives many of those animals don't experience anything other than an exploitive factory situation. It's a far cry from traditional farmyard hens.




    Unfortunately people want cheap food. Even in the West where people are educated and have the money, they often choose cheaper food and a newer iphone over alternate food choices.


    The farmer has very little power. Almost zero in fact. Food tends to be produced at or below cost for the farmer as it is.


    As long as people choose the cheaper food, the supermarkets (who have the real power) will demand quantity over quality


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    #18
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    There would be no cows in the" wilds" of Ireland if we stopped using them for milk meat and leather there wouldn't be a cow in Ireland.
    Does anyone disagree with this?

    The problem with the sentiment that "A dog is a pig is a bear is a boy" is that under current vegan ideology - a dog, a pig, a bear and will never ever allowed to be a 'boy'.

    That animals under the reign of veganism will never be given the rights of a 'boy' - rather they are to be eradicated. This is already happening and is practiced by various vegan groups such as PETA who are currently and actively killing stolen pets.
    ".. killing is not an ancillary part of PETA’s program; it goes to the core of the mission. “The objective of the program,” (it) “was to get as many animals as possible and the vast majority of those animals were killed.” Nothing came between that objective and the staff, including lying by telling people the animals would be adopted knowing full well they would be killed:

    For details of the theft of many of these animals by PETA See:
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/killing-animals-petas-open-secret_b_59e78243e4b0e60c4aa36711

    The same ideology also advocates the wiping out of all wild animals which eat meat under the guise of eradicating "Wild Animal Suffering" (WAS) - an increasingly promoted part of popular online vegan ideology.

    Imo It is not that there is concern for such animals, rather the existence of these animals both farmed and wild is a very real obstacle to the ideology of veganism as the 'only way'

    And all because a small minority do not like meat - it is being actually suggested that we get rid of all domestic animals and to ultimately eradicate all wild animals who depend on meat for their survival from the face of the earth.

    Absolutely incredible imo.


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    #19
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    So what happens to the animals?
    No farmers no cow's surely a life for the for the food chain better than no life at all?

    You can follow that logic to the end and say they same of humans. Your reasoning is one people used and likely still do to justify slavery. That being the case, there is something else you are missing with that line of reasoning, what amendments would you make to your philosophical thought?


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    #20
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    You can follow that logic to the end and say they same of humans. Your reasoning is one people used and likely still do to justify slavery. That being the case, there is something else you are missing with that line of reasoning, what amendments would you make to your philosophical thought?

    Unfortunately you are using the standard faulty vegan logic of conflating animal agriculture with human slavery.

    Not only are such juxtapositions or comparisons of little merit in any rational argument - it is a fact that the use of such logic is offensive to all those of any race who live within the legacy of slavery
    Veganism has a serious race problem. Type ‘vegan’ into Google and you won’t need to scroll through many pages to see what I mean. The routine comparisons of animal abuse to the enslavement of Black people shows exactly how little value white members of the vegan community, generally considered a liberal breed, place on Black life. This racism, so casually delivered, is designed to add shock value – to trigger a dietary epiphany. 

    https://mediadiversified.org/2015/12/16/veganism-has-a-serious-race-problem/

    Unlike mainstream vegan ideology - it remains that animal agricultural does not advocate for the wiping out of entire species of animals.


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    #21
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    One thing I always am is honest. Don’t make assumptions about me.

    As to what I want: the deliberate use of all animals, by humans, to stop.

    If you are ever unfortunate enough to meet a hen as big or bigger than you are, it will eat you in the blink of an eye. Any campaign for the humane treatment of farm animals I am happy to support, but I reserve the right to eat meat.


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    #22
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    gozunda wrote: »
    Unfortunately you are using the standard faulty vegan logic of conflating animal agriculture with human slavery.

    Not only are such juxtapositions or comparisons of little merit in any rational argument - it is a fact that the use of such logic is offensive to all those of any race who live within the legacy of slavery



    https://mediadiversified.org/2015/12/16/veganism-has-a-serious-race-problem/

    Unlike mainstream vegan ideology - it remains that animal agricultural does not advocate for the wiping out of entire species of animals.
    I am not "conflating animal agriculture with human slavery". The two components do not particularly matter, I am showing somebody a flaw in logic with a real world example, so as to ground it. "surely a life for the for the food chain better than no life at all". They do not extend this to all life, so amendments must be made to clarify their actual meaning.


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    #23
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Human Life and animals are hard equal.
    Yes should be treated compassionately but a human being is comparable to an animal


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    #24
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    I am not "conflating animal agriculture with human slavery". The two components do not particularly matter, I am showing somebody a flaw in logic with a real world example.
    "surely a life for the for the food chain better than no life at all". They do not extend this to all life, so amendments must be made.

    Then why introduce slavery to the argument?
    If I had a cent for each of the occasions where I have seen it used - I'd be retired tbh.

    Eitherway the farming of animals is irrelevant to your point that it "does not extend to all life" as animal agriculture is clearly not a case of "no life at all". Neither does farming advocate for entire species of domestic animals to be eradicated. That is only true of veganism.


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    #25
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Human Life and animals are hard equal.
    Yes should be treated compassionately but a human being is comparable to an animal
    I am not saying they are equal, clearly animals are different from each other in differing ways.
    In your view:

    For humans: A life is not worth living simply if they are a part of the food chain.
    For other animals: A life is worth living simply if they are a part of the food chain.

    In one example the ends justify the means, the other the ends do not justify the means. what makes you draw that differing conclusion to similar, if not equal, things?


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    #26
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    I am not saying they are equal, clearly animals are different from each other in differing ways.
    In your view:

    For humans: A life is not worth living if they are a part of the food chain.
    For other animals: A life is worth living if they are a part of the food chain.

    In one example the ends justify the means, the other the ends do not justify the means. what makes you draw that conclusion?
    My point is well treated animal reared by a loving compassionate farmer then to be slaughtered with compassion is better than to have not lived at all just my opinion


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    #27
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    gozunda wrote: »
    Then why introduce slavery to the argument?
    If I had a cent for each of the occasions where I have seen it used - I'd be retired tbh.

    Eitherway the farming of animals is irrelevant to your point that it "does not extend to all life" as animal agriculture is clearly not a case of "no life at all". Neither does farming does advocate for entire species of domestic animals to be eradicated.

    The example is to exemplify differing thought about the same philosophical questions. Often people have different answers to the same basic principles but they can not bring this to the forefront in their mind without examples, over which they hold the opposite opinion in relation to basic principles.


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    #28
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    My point is well treated animal reared by qaloving compassionate farmer then to be slaughtered with compassion is better than to have not lived at all just my opinion

    Fair enough if that is your opinion. I'm just interested in why you think that. Say I raise an animal for a few years and kill it, that that is better than it not existing. Why do you think that is?
    Now say I raise a human and give it a good life for a few years and kill it, is that better than it not existing. Why? Why not?


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    #29
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    Fair enough if that is your opinion. I'm just interested in why you think that. Say I raise and animal and kill it, that that is better than it not existing. Why do you think that is?
    Now say I raise a human and give it a good life and kill it, is that better than it not existing. Why? Why not?

    Human beings are not part of the food chain.
    Also if you kill a human being it's murder.
    I'm pro eating meat once the animals have been treated well and given best life possible


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    #30
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    My point is well treated animal reared by qaloving compassionate farmer then to be slaughtered with compassion is better than to have not lived at all just my opinion

    It is also evident that all animals on this planet are constituent parts of the process of entropy where the recycling of energy involves both consumers and producers.

    To isolate animal farming from this process and say it is wrong also shows that vegans are not simply against animal agriculture but essentially they are against the eating of any meat.

    If that's not the case should we perhaps we could revert to hunting animals with spears and chasing them over the edge of cliffs? I dont believe too many vegans would support this either. Are there improvements which could be made to some farming practices? Yes they are. It does not mean we should abolish farming just because some are attempting to justify the abolition of animal agriculture as they do not agree with others eating meat as part of their normal diet.


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    #31
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Anteayer wrote: »
    Given the conditions that some animals are raised in, I'd say quite a few would be a lot better off had they never existed.

    While some farming tries to be humane, globally more of it really doesn't bother at all. I'm particularly talking about areas like intensive poultry farming which can be really inhumane. I mean from hatchling to the end of their lives many of those animals don't experience anything other than an exploitive factory situation. It's a far cry from traditional farmyard hens.

    This is true indeed.
    Back in the 90’s I was given a tour of a caged chicken farm producing eggs and it was shocking with cages stacked 12 high, bottom six cages the chickens had feathers burned off from dropping coming down through cages from above. . Seeing free range egg production now there is no comparison and the chickens have a decent life if a bit short.

    Our chickens roam free, non laying chickens turn into pets living out their life with the laying hens, they don’t live long anyway.

    Similarly commercial pig units while clean and warm resemble nothing close to a pigs natural environment. Farrowing crates, well I don’t know how essential they are, guy we buy piglets from doesn’t use them, some losses as a result but he feels it’s a more natural set up. I think the crates guaranteed 100% survival where without it would be 70-80% piglet survived.

    At the very least animals should be reared and kept in conditions close to that of their ancestors and how they developed.

    Our pigs live outdoors with a small shed for shelter and they choose to either be in or out themselves. Growth rates are but a fraction of commercial rates though, similarly we use just a fraction of the meal they feed. The result I feel it happier pigs and a better end product.

    We’ve been moving our cattle to a similar system over the winter with access to green pasture all the time and anshed to use for shelter, they spend huge % of time outside during winter and bad weather.

    All this reduces profitability. But I beleive were overproducing meat at present and it’s become a basic commodity cheaply priced. I’d like to see less meat production but better prices, that would better reflect the product it is.


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