Irish Times Article on Consent.

Mr. Incognito · 09-04-2019 1:45pm #1

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/so-if-you-go-out-and-both-get-drunk-you-can-t-have-sex-that-s-f-ked-up-1.3840294

I think this is fantastic.

The Transitiion year students identified two brilliant points.

Q 1. Are men expected to ask for sex and verbailise it.
A. Yes.

Q 2. Are men supposed to be responsible for women?
A. Not answered- instead the question if steered towards men can be raped too.

This is not education. It is forcing an agenda on young men.

Previously women were told they should not have sex.

Now young men are basically being told they should not have sex or that there is a presumption against them in the absence of vocalised consent.

The simple advice should be- If there is any doubt then don't do it. This is not explained to these young men at any point.

I have to say that this sort of agenda concerns me.

George Hook said that people need to take personal responsibility and was literally fired for talking common sense. This sort of narrative is very dangerous.

Pissartist · 09-04-2019 1:54pm

George Hook said that people need to take personal responsibility and was literally fired for talking common sense. This sort of narrative is very dangerous.[/QUOTE]

Haven't you heard, men are ALL rapist misogynistic pigs, just identify as a woman, that's ok now too

RayCun · 09-04-2019 1:59pm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/so-if-you-go-out-and-both-get-drunk-you-can-t-have-sex-that-s-f-ked-up-1.3840294

I think this is fantastic.

The Transitiion year students identified two brilliant points.

Q 1. Are men expected to ask for sex and verbailise it.
A. Yes.

Not true.

Straight up asking is one way of ensuring your partner consents, but nobody said it was the only way.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Q 2. Are men supposed to be responsible for women?
A. Not answered- instead the question if steered towards men can be raped too.

Men are supposed to be responsible for their actions.

Some would say that's what being an adult means - taking responsibility for what you do.

Some would say that's just what not being a prick means.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Now young men are basically being told they should not have sex or that there is a presumption against them in the absence of vocalised consent.

Nobody said that.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

George Hook said that people need to take personal responsibility

and now you are complaining that men are expected to take responsibility for their actions.

One eyed Jack · 09-04-2019 2:03pm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

George Hook said that people need to take personal responsibility and was literally fired for talking common sense. This sort of narrative is very dangerous.

George Hook wasn’t fired for talking common sense, he was fired because the sponsors of his show withdrew their support following his monumentally stupid comments.

I’m not going to bother my arse reading the rest of whatever that was above it either, seems to be the usual rambling bollocks that would appeal to George’s audience.

c.p.w.g.w · 09-04-2019 2:09pm

Have always held the belief that everyone has personal responsibility for their actions.

If you get too drunk you open up the possibility of putting yourself into a dangerous situation, as alcohol affects the thought process.

Examples:
Walking home instead of a taxi.

If you as a male get jumped you will be told how stupid you were to walk home alone when drunk. It doesn't justify the assault but the drunk person was irresponsible by getting so drunk and walking home.

Same example with a female, it's not her fault she bares no responsibility, society has gone the pot, the world is sexist, who'd attack a poor woman, and that's a simple example without a sexual assault.

Women wish to be treated equally, but more equally in certain scenario's.

A female commentar made the point before the hook thing and she was called an apologist for rapist or something along those lines

RayCun · 09-04-2019 2:10pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Have always held the belief that everyone has personal responsibility for their actions.

Yes.

Murderers are responsible for the murders they commit.

Robbers are responsible for the robberies they commit.

Rapists are responsible for the rapes they commit.

c.p.w.g.w · 09-04-2019 2:13pm

RayCun wrote: »

Yes.

Murderers are responsible for the murders they commit.

Robbers are responsible for the robberies they commit.

Rapists are responsible for the rapes they commit.

So leaving you front door wide open and having your house robbed, what would the guards says, or your insurance for example. Your'd be told you were stupid for doing such a thing

RayCun · 09-04-2019 2:17pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

So leaving you front door wide open and having your house robbed, what would the guards says, or your insurance for example. Your'd be told you were stupid for doing such a thing

Would that make you a burglar?

Surely the person who sees an opportunity to steal things, and decides to steal things, has to be held responsible for stealing things.

The burglar has to take responsibility for their actions, correct?

Zorya · 09-04-2019 2:21pm

The issue has been solved. Have ye not heard of the ..Consent Condom. It takes four hands to open. Now obviously it is a bit discriminatory against those with one hand, or people who have shaky, weak fingers. It also fails to stop those with digital dexterity and cannot help you if you change your mind after the bout of preparatory partner origami. But, them's the breaks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eneUvVqHd1w

seamus · 09-04-2019 2:21pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

So leaving you front door wide open and having your house robbed, what would the guards says, or your insurance for example. Your'd be told you were stupid for doing such a thing

So your opinion is that it's less of a crime if that happens?

Or would you feel that the burglar is just as much of an asshole as any other? And should be pursued by the Gardai like any other?

It's one thing being told that leaving your door open is silly. It's another thing entirely saying that you only have yourself to blame.

The latter is the issue with consent cases. That people seek to reduce the blame of the rapist based on how intoxicated the woman was, how "up for it" she appeared to be, or what she was wearing.

All of those things are irrelevant when it comes to determining if someone is a rapist.

Your burglar is no less of a burglar, no less of a scumbag, just because the doors are all open.

Rather than point at you and tell you how stupid you are for leaving your door open, decent human beings will help you out after the fact, or will close your door for you if they see it left open.

c.p.w.g.w · 09-04-2019 2:22pm

RayCun wrote: »

Would that make you a burglar?

Surely the person who sees an opportunity to steal things, and decides to steal things, has to be held responsible for stealing things.

The burglar has to take responsibility for their actions, correct?

Yes but if the home owner was more responsibility the robbery would be less likely to have happened

Pherekydes · 09-04-2019 2:23pm

George Hook said that people need to take personal responsibility and was literally fired for talking common sense.

George Hook was fired for victim blaming. There's a difference between telling someone to be careful before they go out and blaming them for what happened to them on a night out.

Something that was beyond the limited intellect of Hook.

ahnowbrowncow · 09-04-2019 2:23pm

RayCun wrote: »

Yes.

Murderers are responsible for the murders they commit.

Robbers are responsible for the robberies they commit.

Rapists are responsible for the rapes they commit.

Drivers are responsible for their actions for accidents they're involved in when under the influence of alcohol.

Men are responsible for their actions when having sex while drunk.

Women aren't responsible for their actions when they have sex while drunk.

Arghus · 09-04-2019 2:25pm

I can what way this thread is going to go already.

RayCun · 09-04-2019 2:26pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Yes but if the home owner was more responsibility the robbery would be less likely to have happened

But the robber is the person who committed the crime.

If you believe in personal responsibility, surely you believe robbers should be held responsible when they commit crimes?

Zorya · 09-04-2019 2:27pm

Arghus wrote: »

I can what way this thread is going to go already.

See? Hope? Predict? Fear? Guess? Love? Dance? It's possible it will be a love fest, Arghus, the day is young, the sun is out.

c.p.w.g.w · 09-04-2019 2:30pm

RayCun wrote: »

But the robber is the person who committed the crime.

If you believe in personal responsibility, surely you believe robbers should be held responsible when they commit crimes?

Of course I do, but the home owner should lock up. The same way women maybe should not get so drunk they go off with a stranger.

I'm not saying rapists should walk free, I'm saying women need to be responsible by not consuming so much alcohol that it puts them into potentially dangerous situations.

Here we go · 09-04-2019 2:33pm

When I was young you asked doyou want to if they said yes is a yes and if it's anything other then yes it's a no how have they made so complicated

RayCun · 09-04-2019 2:33pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Of course I do, but the home owner should lock up. The same way women maybe should not get so drunk they go off with a stranger.

I'm not saying rapists should walk free, I'm saying women need to be responsible by not consuming so much alcohol that it puts them into potentially dangerous situations.

Should murderers get off easier if their victims don't fight back?

If they struggled a bit, maybe they wouldn't have been killed. Why didn't they take some self-defence classes? Or carry a gun?

Arghus · 09-04-2019 2:34pm

Zorya wrote: »

See? Hope? Predict? Fear? Guess? Love? Dance? It's possible it will be a love fest, Arghus, the day is young, the sun is out.

It's going to be one of those long multi-authored horror stories where the take home message will be that the poor beleaguered man of today can't walk down the street without someone accusing them of rape.

seamus · 09-04-2019 2:34pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I'm saying women need to be responsible by not consuming so much alcohol that it puts them into potentially dangerous situations.

Why just women? Why not men too?

Plopsu · 09-04-2019 2:36pm

The conversation in the OP isn't discussing women being raped when they're drunk. It's discussing two equally drunk people having what appears to be consensual sex and one of them being criminalised for it even though they both had the same inability to consent. The people giving the course do not respond and redirect (or try to) the discussion.

NIMAN · 09-04-2019 2:38pm

TL;DR

jam_mac_jam · 09-04-2019 2:40pm

RayCun wrote: »

Should murderers get off easier if their victims don't fight back?

If they struggled a bit, maybe they wouldn't have been killed. Why didn't they take some self-defence classes? Or carry a gun?

Exactly, nobody ever asks what the alarm situation or if the windows were open is when a burglary happens but there is always a little bit of judgement when a rape is involved.

Men get raped as well, should they also watch their alcohol intake as I never really see that mentioned.

This argument is always framed as two drunk people and the next day the woman just decides to cry rape. I would love to see the stats on how many actual fake rape claims there are a year and how that compares to the number of people who get raped.

Plopsu · 09-04-2019 2:44pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Exactly, nobody ever asks what the alarm situation or if the windows were open is when a burglary happens but there is always a little bit of judgement when a rape is involved.

Men get raped as well, should they also watch their alcohol intake as I never really see that mentioned.

This argument is always framed as two drunk people and the next day the woman just decides to cry rape. I would love to see the stats on how many actual fake rape claims there are a year and how that compares to the number of people who get raped.

But that's not what the OP is about.

Grayson · 09-04-2019 2:44pm

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Drivers are responsible for their actions for accidents they're involved in when under the influence of alcohol.

Men are responsible for their actions when having sex while drunk.

Women aren't responsible for their actions the actions of rapists when they have sex while drunk.

Fixed your post

BTW, it's illegal to drive whilst drunk. It's actually illegal to do loads of things whilst drunk. That's because your abilities are impaired.

There have been times when I've had sex whilst drunk, with drunk women. I had a great time and so did they. Neither of us were locked.

there have been times when I've had the opportunity to have sex with a woman when she was drunk and I didn't try because I knew she was far too drunk. If IU'd had sex with them there's now way i could be certain they were consenting and yes, I could have been raping them. A woman being drunk is not consent. Just as you being drunk is not consent for me to shove a dildo up your ass.

When I read these threads it always seems to boil down to guys who are complaining that they're worried they might have to check if a woman is sober enough to consent. You get the idea that checking someone is sober enough to consent is political correctness gone too far. "what do you mean I have to make sure I'm not raping her. That's feminism gone crazy".

Conall Cernach · 09-04-2019 2:45pm

Two men go out and get hammered. They wake up in bed beside each other, have they raped each other?

RayCun · 09-04-2019 2:46pm

Plopsu wrote: »

The conversation in the OP isn't discussing women being raped when they're drunk.

The conversation in the OP is counsellors talking to a room full of boys, talking about what their responsibilities are.

People in this thread are saying they are all for personal responsibility, except when it comes to men being responsible for where they put their dicks.

SoundsRight · 09-04-2019 2:50pm

I honestly think a lot of girls don't actually know what constitutes rape. If they did, they wouldn't take so many risks.

jam_mac_jam · 09-04-2019 2:50pm

Plopsu wrote: »

But that's not what the OP is about.

Did I say it was?

I was referring to earlier postings and I predict subsequent postings and answering somebody else.

Grayson · 09-04-2019 2:50pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Of course I do, but the home owner should lock up. The same way women maybe should not get so drunk they go off with a stranger.

I'm not saying rapists should walk free, I'm saying women need to be responsible by not consuming so much alcohol that it puts them into potentially dangerous situations.

You realise that a hell of a lot of rapes are perpetrated by people that are known to the victim.

Irish Times Article on Consent.

Comments