Drew Harris armoured jeep flung into the air at Garda HQ

McMurphy · 08-04-2019 10:44AM

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

What did you think, Johnny?

The main points I got from it were breach of protocol, internal Garda matter and political parties shouldn’t be trying to score points by calling for Harris to explain.

I would add that the security analysis (missed his name) said the story was leaked, suggesting Harris would have been happy enough with the public being kept in the dark about it.

He then tried to suggest that it was common procedure for members of a foreign police force to carry weapons here, but when pressed by Kenny that any mutual agreement for either force to be carrying weapons in either jurisdiction was yet to be agreed/completed, he replied that he was unaware of this.

And as for Harris not needing to explain the clusterfcuk? Give me a break, after then last two commissioner's adopting the same kind of attitude, unless Harris does indeed give some clarity on armed men from a different jurisdiction driving freely through our states streets, and the legality of same, I'm going to go with the meet the new boss, same as the old boss line of thinking.

Distinct whiff of skullduggery surrounding the whole thing, it should not be allowed to be swept under the carpet.

TomasMacR · 08-04-2019 10:52AM

I don't believe for a second this was a once off. The one time the Garda ARU didn't show up at the border to collect him this event happened? Give a me a break. I'd say it's a lot more likely Harris hasn't been bothering with the transfer all along and his buddies in the PSNI have been dropping him down to Dublin all along. Political point scoring I couldn't give a toss about but this lad has some explaining to do. This is all very familiar with our commissioners, at least his predecessors were acting the bollocks within An Garda Síochána only.

Yurt2 · 08-04-2019 11:02AM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

He then tried to suggest that it was common procedure for members of a foreign police force to carry weapons here, but when pressed by Kenny that any mutual agreement for either force to be carrying weapons in either jurisdiction was yet to be agreed/completed, he replied that he was unaware of this.

There are of course procedures for foreign authorities/agencies to carry arms in the state; but they would be done with a paper-trail and the consent of probably the Department of Justice (via the Department of Foreign Affairs most likely). When an American President lands in Ireland, there's no way his security are not carrying firearms - but an agreement to carry them would have been sought and secured for the visit's duration, and an itemized list of the weapons would have been provided.

He could have some questions to answer.

Odyssey 2005 · 08-04-2019 11:40AM

Yurt! wrote: »

There are of course procedures for foreign authorities/agencies to carry arms in the state; but they would be done with a paper-trail and the consent of probably the Department of Justice (via the Department of Foreign Affairs most likely). When an American President lands in Ireland, there's no way his security are not carrying firearms - but an agreement to carry them would have been sought and secured for the visit's duration, and an itemized list of the weapons would have been provided.

He could have some questions to answer.

His close close security would be carrying all the time. SS personnel only carry arms when on duty,at rallies talks etc. Their arms are kept in the armoury in Deerfield

AlanG · 08-04-2019 12:02PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

He then tried to suggest that it was common procedure for members of a foreign police force to carry weapons here, but when pressed by Kenny that any mutual agreement for either force to be carrying weapons in either jurisdiction was yet to be agreed/completed, he replied that he was unaware of this.

Agreement for standard armed support has not been reached but there is a different agreement for personal support. The only thing that amazes me it that people actually thought this sort of thing was not standard. Only an idiot would change vehicles at the border every time they crossed it.

Tomas81 · 08-04-2019 12:04PM

This will have serious ramifications that the border was crossed by armed officers in PSNI- Apparently what's being said is they were TSG which weren't armed.

FishOnABike · 08-04-2019 12:07PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

He then tried to suggest that it was common procedure for members of a foreign police force to carry weapons here, but when pressed by Kenny that any mutual agreement for either force to be carrying weapons in either jurisdiction was yet to be agreed/completed, he replied that he was unaware of this.

Ignorantia juris non excusat. The most senior police officer in the country pleading ignorance of not only this but also by inference, basic firearms licencing law in this country, as a defence beggars belief. Whether genuine ignorance or arrogance it requires an explanation.

It is not acceptable for the most senior police officer in the country to be seen to or be open to the perception that he sidesteps procedures and the law, operating a 'do as I say, not as I do' policy as a matter of convenience.

BettePorter · 08-04-2019 12:07PM

I'd say the cctv footage from the scene was epic. When hitting the barrier switch I'm sure the guard activated the 'big red button ' and coppers probably came running from every where. Imagine the poor guards face when her boss emerged from the back seat. 'Faaaaaaack'!!!!

Yurt2 · 08-04-2019 12:11PM

AlanG wrote: »

Agreement for standard armed support has not been reached but there is a different agreement for personal support. The only thing that amazes me it that people actually thought this sort of thing was not standard. Only an idiot would change vehicles at the border every time they crossed it.

At the risk of asking a foolish question, what is the distinction between standard armed support and personal support?

I'm afraid the general public wouldn't be mostly aware it's standard practice to have armed members of a foreign police force in the state as a routine matter. Not that the Gardai will be offering much information on their protocols on the topic, but one would think that there *should* be a paper trail for foreign police forces packing heat in the state - and not just "I'm the gaffer here, it's grand lads drive on."

Anteayer · 08-04-2019 12:21PM

He is *not* a foreign visitor. He's the Garda Commissioner.

08-04-2019 12:28PM

Anteayer wrote: »

He is *not* a foreign visitor. He's the Garda Commissioner.

and is the first one to need armed protection here. and also in Northern Ireland, but of course, provided by the police in each jurisdiction. No crossover of police into each others jurisdiction.

EmmetSpiceland · 08-04-2019 12:33PM

Anteayer wrote: »

He is *not* a foreign visitor.

He is when it suits the narrative of some.

Same way the North is a “different state” and a “different jurisdiction” one minute and “our land” the next.

Yurt2 · 08-04-2019 12:33PM

quote="Anteayer;109880236"]He is *not* a foreign visitor. He's the Garda Commissioner.[/quote]

The armed PSNI officers are an extra-territorial agency. Was it following protocol and procedure having armed PSNI in the state?

This is all grand and dandy until they respond to a real or perceived threat and they open fire. What if someone is killed unlawfully by a firearm discharged by an officer who perhaps shouldn't have had the weapon in the state?

Anteayer · 08-04-2019 12:53PM

I agree on the PSNI officers and that's what I mean. Why isn't his personal safety being handled entirely by the Gardai in this state.
He's the most senior Garda in the country, not a visiting NI dignatory.

When he's in NI as Garda Commissioner he's a visiting dignatory from the Republic.

I mean can you imagine if a former Garda were say head of the Greater Manchester Police, I doubt they'd be expecting the ERU to take them home to their office.

I appreciate they may have lots of operational issues and need to avoid things like swapping cars in a predictable place etc but there are lines that shouldn't be blurred.

08-04-2019 02:45PM

Crazy stuff. Harris made the decision to be protected by the PSNI rather than the Gardai, in the Gardai's functional area. He better come up with some explanation.

08-04-2019 03:30PM

Just wondering.. when the Taoiseach goes up north for a meeting, is he is driven by a driver from AGS? Would an armed Garda be on board on the journey? Or would all this be pre-consented etc.? Have absolutely zero knowledge on these matters, never really thought about them at all until this, seeking to be enlightened.

08-04-2019 03:34PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just wondering.. when the Taoiseach goes up north for a meeting, is he is driven by a driver from AGS? Would an armed Garda be on board on the journey? Have absolutely zero knowledge on these matters, never really thought about them at all until this, seeking to be enlightened.

Any official business of any person under Garda protection is sorted out in advance. Well in advance.
Individual Gardai cannot & do not just pop over the border, while working, armed or otherwise. In fact, they would be liable to arrest if they were up there armed.

Different countries have different rules for allowing foreign police officers to carry weapons. Irish police do carry overseas, with prior approval.

Remind me · 08-04-2019 03:38PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Any official business of any person under Garda protection is sorted out in advance. Well in advance.
Individual Gardai cannot & do not just pop over the border, while working, armed or otherwise. In fact, they would be liable to arrest if they were up there armed.

Different countries have different rules for allowing foreign police officers to carry weapons. Irish police do carry overseas, with prior approval.

Exactly.

Any request for protection in a different state is dealt with diplomatically and requests are submitted for firearms, radio frequencies etc...

08-04-2019 03:42PM

Would this not be a more proper kind of arrangement. The Commissioner is driven in armoured vehicle by unarmed psni trained police driver who knows how to drive in Emergrncy situations. The car is accompanied to border by a psni armed unmarked car, then AGS unmarked armed car accompanied them from border to Dublin. Or is that normally the standard situation? Was this indeed the case on the day, just that we only know of the psni vehicle and don’t know exactly were arms inside vehicle or in an unmarked following vehicle? Is it really a non-story, that officialdom doesn’t want to have to explain in great detail for security reasons?

riemann · 08-04-2019 03:46PM

Not seeing this on RTE or the Irish Times websites?

Media blackout? Or am I just not looking in the right place?

HeidiHeidi · 08-04-2019 03:46PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would this not be a more proper kind of arrangement. The Commissioner is driven in armoured vehicle by unarmed psni trained police driver who knows how to drive in Emergrncy situations. The car is accompanied to border by a psni armed unmarked car, then AGS unmarked armed car accompanied them from border to Dublin. Or is that normally the standard situation? Was this indeed the case on the day, just that we only know of the psni vehicle and don’t know exactly were arms inside vehicle or in an unmarked following vehicle? Is it really a non-story, that officialdom doesn’t want to have to explain in great detail for security reasons?

If they told you they'd have to shoot you......

MrFresh · 08-04-2019 04:02PM

riemann wrote: »

Not seeing this on RTE or the Irish Times websites?

Media blackout? Or am I just not looking in the right place?

Most likely they can't confirm the details of the story. There's a lot of versions going around.

Turner · 08-04-2019 04:12PM

Commissioner Drew Harris is due in front of the Policing Authority on 18th April.

I hope this is questioned publically and an explanation given.

McMurphy · 08-04-2019 04:59PM

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Crazy stuff. Harris made the decision to be protected by the PSNI rather than the Gardai, in the Gardai's functional area. He better come up with some explanation.

Is it down to the fact, that at the end of the Day, when all is said and done, he just downright doesn't fully trust the Gardai to fully look after him, or that he just prefers his "own type" company?

Has there been any updates on this does anyone know? Will Harris come out and clarify what went on?

Surely this could be easily resolved, it's binary in my opinion, either it's completely legal and above board for the psni to operate while carrying firearms in the Republic, or its not.

Remind me · 08-04-2019 05:17PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Surely this could be easily resolved, it's binary in my opinion, either it's completely legal and above board for the psni to operate while carrying firearms in the Republic, or its not.

Fully legal if permission is given. No different to secret service carrying firearms if an American President is over.

McMurphy · 08-04-2019 05:21PM

Remind me wrote: »

Fully legal if permission is given. No different to secret service carrying firearms if an American President is over.

If.

All reports online suggest that it was never finalised, we await some clarity on this being the case or not.

The Americans seek approval/permission well in advance by the way.

CrankyHaus · 08-04-2019 05:30PM

Has there been any corroboration of these allegations, or even an identified source?

Remind me · 08-04-2019 05:36PM

There can be blanket clearance in some cases

MrFresh · 08-04-2019 05:52PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

If.

All reports online suggest that it was never finalised, we await some clarity on this being the case or not.

The Americans seek approval/permission well in advance by the way.

The Americans would be on diplomatic status anyway wouldn't they? I doubt it is the same process for cross border policing.

AlekSmart · 08-04-2019 05:58PM

Anteayer wrote: »

I agree on the PSNI officers and that's what I mean. Why isn't his personal safety being handled entirely by the Gardai in this state.
He's the most senior Garda in the country, not a visiting NI dignatory.

When he's in NI as Garda Commissioner he's a visiting dignatory from the Republic.

I mean can you imagine if a former Garda were say head of the Greater Manchester Police, I doubt they'd be expecting the ERU to take them home to their office.

I appreciate they may have lots of operational issues and need to avoid things like swapping cars in a predictable place etc but there are lines that shouldn't be blurred.

VIP's crossing the Land Frontier have always had to exercise caution....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/gibson-a-marked-man-after-judgment-says-cory-1.400989

Det Garda Mostyn and Det Garda Shovlin were assigned to escort the Gibsons after they arrived in Dublin and they travelled in convoy to the Border.

There they stopped where the Gibsons thanked their escorts and shook hands with them before continuing into Co Armagh.

The Garda officers had maintained radio silence throughout and began their return journey. The Gibsons, having driven 400 metres into Northern Ireland, were caught in a massive explosion before they were able to make contact with an RUC escort which was to accompany them to Belfast.

Different times,but similar risks ?

Drew Harris armoured jeep flung into the air at Garda HQ

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