Holding both Irish and UK driving licences

Carnmore · 09-03-2019 12:48PM #1

For someone with an Irish driving licence, is it possible to also hold a UK licence?

Would it involve sitting another driving test in the UK?

endacl · 09-03-2019 12:55PM

Pre brexit, no. They’re both EU licenses.

Post brexit? Who dafuq knows...

CelticRambler · 09-03-2019 12:57PM

Your drivers licence is (should be) issued/re-issued by your country of residence.

Why would you want to have a second one?

my3cents · 09-03-2019 12:57PM

Its certainly possible if you have a UK licence to then get an Irish one but you have to lie to do it.

I lost my UK licence so got a document that said I had passed a UK driving test from Swansea and presented that in exchange for my Irish licence. I then found my UK licence :rolleyes:

tbh no idea where my UK licence is again so in reality I only have an Irish one.

slave1 · 09-03-2019 01:16PM

endacl wrote: »

Pre brexit, no. They’re both EU licenses.

Post brexit? Who dafuq knows...

Course you can, I've a UK licence from when I lived in the UK, sat the test here too and have an Irish licence.
My UK licence is valid till I'm 70 so I wasn't giving it up

CelticRambler · 09-03-2019 01:27PM

slave1 wrote: »

Course you can, I've a UK licence from when I lived in the UK, sat the test here too and have an Irish licence.
My UK licence is valid till I'm 70 so I wasn't giving it up

If you're not UK-resident, and haven't informed the DVLA of a change in your address, your insurance company would probably use that as a reason to declare you "driving without a valid licence" in the case of an accident, especially if you used it to hire a car (rather than driving your own).

Sitting another test to get a document of dubious legality and probable irrelevance seems like an awful lot of time, money and hassle. Again I ask, why would you?

slave1 · 09-03-2019 01:54PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

If you're not UK-resident, and haven't informed the DVLA of a change in your address, your insurance company would probably use that as a reason to declare you "driving without a valid licence" in the case of an accident, especially if you used it to hire a car (rather than driving your own).

Sitting another test to get a document of dubious legality and probable irrelevance seems like an awful lot of time, money and hassle. Again I ask, why would you?

No insurance issue, I am resident and insured under my Irish licence.

There is no dubious legality of any kind, it is perfectly acceptable to have two licences, there was not an awful lot of time, money or hassle, I just booked an Irish test and passed it, there was no hassle.

Why would I? Why not, who knows what the future will bring?

Carnmore · 09-03-2019 02:28PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

Why would you want to have a second one?

It's always useful to have a second option - be it a passport, driving licence or whatever

slave1 wrote: »

Course you can, I've a UK licence from when I lived in the UK, sat the test here too and have an Irish licence.
My UK licence is valid till I'm 70 so I wasn't giving it up

Is there no link up between the various EU licencing authorities ( DVLA and NDLS in this case) or a central register?

Marcusm · 09-03-2019 02:33PM

slave1 wrote: »

No insurance issue, I am resident and insured under my Irish licence.

There is no dubious legality of any kind, it is perfectly acceptable to have two licences, there was not an awful lot of time, money or hassle, I just booked an Irish test and passed it, there was no hassle.

Why would I? Why not, who knows what the future will bring?

When did you sit the Irish test? It’s been unlawful to apply for an Irish driving licence for a category for which you already have another EU licence for more than a decade. Given that your U.K. licence is a paper one, you must have that for 15-20 years at least.

If you obtained an Irish licence while holding a “recognised driving licence” then the Irish licence is void as a result of having been obtained through either non-disclosure or fraud. Your U.K. licence remains valid (to a point). If you informed your insurer that you had an Irish licence specifically, you would be well advised to correct that. I doubt that this is a material non-disclosure so hopefully it would not result in any alteration in your insurance terms.

CelticRambler · 09-03-2019 02:44PM

Carnmore wrote: »

It's always useful to have a second option - be it a passport, driving licence or whatever

There's some value in having a second passport (though not always to your advantage, as the "other one" is temporarily invalid while you're in the country that issued the second one, except when the country that issued the first one wants to come after you for taxes) ... but a driver's licence? Country 1: "You're OK to drive category B, C & D as long as you've got insurance."
Country 2: "You're OK to drive category B, C & D as long as you've go insurance."

The only circumstance in which I can see benefit would be if the first one is taken off you for some driving offence, but even then the second one doesn't get you out of a hole because your insurance is tied to you and your court record, not the licence.

slave1 · 09-03-2019 02:46PM

All done since the 90's, yes a paper one, and there was no "recognised driving licence" piece when I completed my Irish test

Wishbone Ash · 09-03-2019 05:26PM

Marcusm wrote: »

...It’s been unlawful to apply for an Irish driving licence for a category for which you already have another EU licence for more than a decade....

Suppose a person has a restricted category on a UK licence. They move to the ROI and wish to obtain an unrestricted licence in the same category. They do theory test, learner permit, lessons etc. and pass test.

What happens then, bearing in mind that it's perfectly legal to hold a driving licence and learner permit in the same category?

Marcusm · 09-03-2019 05:34PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Suppose a person has a restricted category on a UK licence. They move to the ROI and wish to obtain an unrestricted licence in the same category. They do theory test, learner permit, lessons etc. and pass test.

What happens then, bearing in mind that it's perfectly legal to hold a driving licence and learner permit in the same category?

You’ll see I referred to category above. I know people who hold licences for different categories although I believe that this is not permitted under the directive or the 2006 or 2011 regulations implementing same.

Marcusm · 09-03-2019 05:40PM

slave1 wrote: »

All done since the 90's, yes a paper one, and there was no "recognised driving licence" piece when I completed my Irish test

Article 7, para 5 of directive 91/439/EEC precludes the holding of more than one EEC (now EU) driving licence. Not bothered looking up when that was incorporated into Irish law but it has the same force as the current directive.

There was no need for your U.K. licence to have any statement re EU or recognition.

Your Irish licence appears invalid.

09-03-2019 06:03PM

Marcusm wrote: »

When did you sit the Irish test? It’s been unlawful to apply for an Irish driving licence for a category for which you already have another EU licence for more than a decade. Given that your U.K. licence is a paper one, you must have that for 15-20 years at least.

2006/126/EC only became law in 2013 to the best of my knowledge. 91/439/EEC only precludes holding more than one EU/EEA driving licence. It doesn't render one invalid, though the relevant Irish legislation may go beyond that.

If you obtained an Irish licence while holding a “recognised driving licence” then the Irish licence is void as a result of having been obtained through either non-disclosure or fraud. Your U.K. licence remains valid (to a point). If you informed your insurer that you had an Irish licence specifically, you would be well advised to correct that. I doubt that this is a material non-disclosure so hopefully it would not result in any alteration in your insurance terms.

Do you have a link to the legislation that voids an Irish license obtained without disclosing that you already hold a licence? EU regs leave it up to the individual countries but does stipulate 'withdrawal' or 'cancellation', it doesn't mention voiding anywhere.

It also isn't fraud, fraud requires ' A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.' as per Irish legislation.

I suspect you're reaching with your claims of voiding and invalidity, though I'll be happy to be proven wrong!

Marcusm · 09-03-2019 06:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

2006/126/EC only became law in 2013 to the best of my knowledge. 91/439/EEC only precludes holding more than one EU/EEA driving licence. It doesn't render one invalid, though the relevant Irish legislation may go beyond that.

Do you have a link to the legislation that voids an Irish license obtained without disclosing that you already hold a licence? EU regs leave it up to the individual countries but does stipulate 'withdrawal' or 'cancellation', it doesn't mention voiding anywhere.

It also isn't fraud, fraud requires ' A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.' as per Irish legislation.

I suspect you're reaching with your claims of voiding and invalidity, though I'll be happy to be proven wrong!

It’s easiest to look by reference to the current 2011 regulations (I.e. the Irish law bringing the 2006 directive into domestic law). It is a condition of the regs that an applicant for an Irish licence hand up any existing EU driving licence when applying for the Irish one. Failure to adhere to a significant condition of the application means that the terms of the application are invalid on their face. That is why I refer to the application rendering the licence void. Failure to adhere to a minor requirement might not make it good.

Idon’t Plan on researching through the domestic law enacting the 1991 directive but I would expect that a similar condition will have then existed - it’s essentially necessary to ensure that a person does not end up holding two licences which is precluded under the directive. There need not be a list of the actions which would nullify or void an application for a licence so I cannot point you to black letter law on the point.

As regards “fraud”, it’s irrelevant but I used the word in its ordinary sense rather than the Criminal law (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act definition.

Car99 · 09-03-2019 07:01PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

If you're not UK-resident, and haven't informed the DVLA of a change in your address, your insurance company would probably use that as a reason to declare you "driving without a valid licence" in the case of an accident, especially if you used it to hire a car (rather than driving your own).

Sitting another test to get a document of dubious legality and probable irrelevance seems like an awful lot of time, money and hassle. Again I ask, why would you?

Did you make all that up ?

You can drive on a UK licence in ireland until it expires , you have a licence number the address is not an important factor in determining the validity of your licence.

Same in UK if you have an Irish licence .

swarlb · 09-03-2019 07:12PM

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s easiest to look by reference to the current 2011 regulations (I.e. the Irish law bringing the 2006 directive into domestic law). It is a condition of the regs that an applicant for an Irish licence hand up any existing EU driving licence when applying for the Irish one. Failure to adhere to a significant condition of the application means that the terms of the application are invalid on their face. That is why I refer to the application rendering the licence void. Failure to adhere to a minor requirement might not make it good.

Idon’t Plan on researching through the domestic law enacting the 1991 directive but I would expect that a similar condition will have then existed - it’s essentially necessary to ensure that a person does not end up holding two licences which is precluded under the directive. There need not be a list of the actions which would nullify or void an application for a licence so I cannot point you to black letter law on the point.

As regards “fraud”, it’s irrelevant but I used the word in its ordinary sense rather than the Crimunal Kaw (Theft and afraid Offences) Act definition.

So, on the 1st April 2019, all going well... none of the above will matter, and that man with both a UK and Irish licence will no longer be a 'criminal' ?

Marcusm · 09-03-2019 07:16PM

swarlb wrote: »

So, on the 1st April 2019, all going well... none of the above will matter, and that man with both a UK and Irish licence will no longer be a 'criminal' ?

Did I suggest anyone was a criminal?

The departure of the U.K. from the EU will make no difference. If the relevant oerson’s Application for an Irish licence was falsely grounded at the time of application, it would remain falsely grounded now. This might lead to a. Discussion as to whether it was “void” or “voidable”. Given that Ireland was precluded from issuing a licence to this person, I fail to see how it can be anything but void. Had the applicant merely made a mistake and it was within the power of Ireland to issue such a licence then I suspect it would have been capable of ratification by Ireland. This seems not to be the case.

sunnysoutheast · 09-03-2019 07:19PM

swarlb wrote: »

So, on the 1st April 2019, all going well... none of the above will matter, and that man with both a UK and Irish licence will no longer be a 'criminal' ?

11:00:01PM on the 29th March in fact ðŸ˜€, depending on what happens next week of course!

sunnysoutheast · 09-03-2019 07:24PM

Car99 wrote: »

Did you make all that up ?

You can drive on a UK licence in ireland until it expires , you have a licence number the address is not an important factor in determining the validity of your licence.

Same in UK if you have an Irish licence .

Significant penalties in the UK now if it transpires you have an out of date address on your licence. Still valid however. Of course if changing address you can only renew to the ten year photo card licence.

Of course who knows what will happen to current arrangements if a no-deal Brexit happens. Personally I think people are underestimating the chances of it happening.

09-03-2019 07:56PM

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s easiest to look by reference to the current 2011 regulations (I.e. the Irish law bringing the 2006 directive into domestic law). It is a condition of the regs that an applicant for an Irish licence hand up any existing EU driving licence when applying for the Irish one. Failure to adhere to a significant condition of the application means that the terms of the application are invalid on their face. That is why I refer to the application rendering the licence void. Failure to adhere to a minor requirement might not make it good.

Idon’t Plan on researching through the domestic law enacting the 1991 directive but I would expect that a similar condition will have then existed - it’s essentially necessary to ensure that a person does not end up holding two licences which is precluded under the directive. There need not be a list of the actions which would nullify or void an application for a licence so I cannot point you to black letter law on the point.

As regards “fraud”, it’s irrelevant but I used the word in its ordinary sense rather than the Criminal law (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act definition.

Invalid isn't the same as void. Just as fraud isn't the same as deception or failure to declare.

You're spreading FUD using legalese and when questioned on it, talking about using words with legal definitions, talking about legal consequences, but somehow you mean them in an 'ordinary sense'.

Knock it out, thanks.

P.S. The 2006 regs refer to any driving license, not just EU/EEA. You're wrong on that too I'm afraid.
P.P.S. Directive 2006/126/EC was transposed into Irish law in 2011 but didn't come in to force until 19/01/2013.

09-03-2019 08:09PM

Marcusm wrote: »

Did I suggest anyone was a criminal?

The departure of the U.K. from the EU will make no difference. If the relevant oerson’s Application for an Irish licence was falsely grounded at the time of application, it would remain falsely grounded now. This might lead to a. Discussion as to whether it was “void” or “voidable”. Given that Ireland was precluded from issuing a licence to this person, I fail to see how it can be anything but void. Had the applicant merely made a mistake and it was within the power of Ireland to issue such a licence then I suspect it would have been capable of ratification by Ireland. This seems not to be the case.

Link to the irish legislation that you're basing this on, or else stop using legal jargon (badly).

I've already pointed out that the EU Directive states 'withdrawal' and 'cancellation' as consequences for a citizen holding two licences, but you keep waffling about fraud, void, 'falsely grounded' and yet more legal jargon I can't be bothered repeating.

swarlb · 09-03-2019 08:39PM

Marcusm wrote: »

Did I suggest anyone was a criminal?

The departure of the U.K. from the EU will make no difference. If the relevant oerson’s Application for an Irish licence was falsely grounded at the time of application, it would remain falsely grounded now. This might lead to a. Discussion as to whether it was “void” or “voidable”. Given that Ireland was precluded from issuing a licence to this person, I fail to see how it can be anything but void. Had the applicant merely made a mistake and it was within the power of Ireland to issue such a licence then I suspect it would have been capable of ratification by Ireland. This seems not to be the case.

Well... you did mention 'fraud' and 'unlawful' both words usually associated with the word 'criminal.

Regardless... I have 2 licences myself, and 2 passports. My partner actually at one stage had 3 passports, and now has 2, and at one stage had 3 driving licences. My son has 2 passports, and my daughter, oddly enough, could claim 4 citizenships, but has decided to stick with the 2 for the moment.
So, in answer to the OP's question, it is possible to hold more than one licence at a time.... (with respect to any 'laws' that may be broken)

Marcusm · 09-03-2019 09:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Invalid isn't the same as void. Just as fraud isn't the same as deception or failure to declare.

You're spreading FUD using legalese and when questioned on it, talking about using words with legal definitions, talking about legal consequences, but somehow you mean them in an 'ordinary sense'.

Knock it out, thanks.

P.S. The 2006 regs refer to any driving license, not just EU/EEA. You're wrong on that too I'm afraid.
P.P.S. Directive 2006/126/EC was transposed into Irish law in 2011 but didn't come in to force until 19/01/2013.

Void means not valid, legally binding or effective. Do you suggest that not valid and invalid are different? Do you think invalid is some lesser form of nothingness than “void”?

You are hilarious; by 2006 regs, I assume you mean the directivethr citation of which you correctly stated later in your post.

Of course the directive refers to “any driving licence” but you must surely understand that the EU does not have the legal authority to establish laws for non-EU members. Directives for your edification take force when transposed into national law in accordance with local law.

Article paragraph 5 of Article 7 of the Directive is very clear.

I’m not engaging further with you.

5.
(a) No person may hold more than one driving licence;
(b) A Member State shall refuse to issue a licence where it establishes that the applicant already holds a driving licence;
(c) Member States shall take the necessary measures pursuant to point (b). The necessary measures as regards the issue, replacement, renewal or exchange of a driving licence shall be to verify with other Member States where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the applicant is already the holder of another driving licence;
(d) In order to facilitate the checks pursuant to point (b), Member States shall use the EU driving licence network once it is operational.
Without prejudice to Article 2, a Member State issuing a licence shall apply due diligence to ensure that a person fulfils the requirements set out in paragraph 1 of this Article and shall apply its national provisions on the cancellation or withdrawal of the right to drive if it is established that a licence has been issued without the requirements having been met.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32006L0126

09-03-2019 09:30PM

1) Void means was never valid. Something being invalidated means it is no longer valid going forward. That's basic, and yet another thing you don't understand

2) You said "It is a condition of the regs that an applicant for an Irish licence hand up any existing EU driving licence when applying for the Irish one.". The 2006 regulations actually says any driving licence must be exchanged.

3) The EU (via a member state) refusing to issue an EU driving licence doesn't require 'establishing laws for non-EU members'. That's a remarkably poor understanding of the situation.

Please stop spoofing, you've been badly found out. You've gotten every piece of jargon wrong, you've gotten dates wrong, you've gotten specific information wrong, and you've refused to provide the Irish legislation that is a basis for your opinion.

Directives for your edification take force when transposed into national law in accordance with local law.

As per http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/si/483/made/en/pdf

1. (1) These Regulations may be cited as the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2011.
(2) These Regulations come into operation on 19 January 2013.

Really? Please stop, and don't use the word 'edification' when you're getting yet another thing wrong

Marcusm · 09-03-2019 10:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

1) Void means was never valid. Something being invalidated means it is no longer valid going forward. That's basic, and yet another thing you don't understand

2) You said "It is a condition of the regs that an applicant for an Irish licence hand up any existing EU driving licence when applying for the Irish one.". The 2006 regulations actually says any driving licence must be exchanged.

3) The EU (via a member state) refusing to issue an EU driving licence doesn't require 'establishing laws for non-EU members'. That's a remarkably poor understanding of the situation.

Please stop spoofing, you've been badly found out. You've gotten every piece of jargon wrong, you've gotten dates wrong, you've gotten specific information wrong, and you've refused to provide the Irish legislation that is a basis for your opinion.

As per http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/si/483/made/en/pdf

Really? Please stop, and don't use the word 'edification' when you're getting yet another thing wrong

1. We agree on the meaning of void.

2. The 2006 regs ( http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/si/537/made/en/print ) do not say “any”, at reg 12.4, it specifies:

An application for a driving licence shall be accompanied by -

(a) where the applicant -

(i) is the holder of a driving licence or a recognised driving licence, such licence,

It is clear that “a driving licence” means one issued in Ireland and “recognised driving licence” is further defined as
“recognised driving licence” means a licence or permit issued by the competent authority of a state (other than the State) to which an order under section 23A (inserted by section 8 of the Road Traffic Act 2006 ) of the Act applies;.

3. The EU doesn’t issue driving licences, that is the competency of the member states. The EU, via directives, sets out the basis on which member states may issue licences. The directives specify the broad parameters of the law which then must be transposed into domestic legislation. In Ireland that is done via secondary legislation as the Minister is authorised to lay SIs under the Road Traffic Acts. However you want to look at it, Ireland required the handing up of the U.K. licence and this was not done. The Irish licence is not valid. In some jurisdictions it might be valid until withdrawn. In Ireland, I believe it was a dead letter, ie outside the powers of the licensing authority and thus void from the start.

09-03-2019 11:22PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's some value in having a second passport (though not always to your advantage, as the "other one" is temporarily invalid while you're in the country that issued the second one, except when the country that issued the first one wants to come after you for taxes) ...

There is significant advantages to having two passports depending on which passports you have. I’m not sure about the “not always to your advantage” bit. I know one or two people with two passports and they often enter a country on one and leave on another depending where they are going and it makes things very handy.

CelticRambler wrote: »

but a driver's licence? Country 1: "You're OK to drive category B, C & D as long as you've got insurance."
Country 2: "You're OK to drive category B, C & D as long as you've go insurance."

The only circumstance in which I can see benefit would be if the first one is taken off you for some driving offence, but even then the second one doesn't get you out of a hole because your insurance is tied to you and your court record, not the licence.

Having two EU licenses may only have a few specific benefits mostly related to insurance.

But being able to hold an EU and US license (which is easy enough to achieve) is of massive advantage and similar with some other non-eu licenses.

09-03-2019 11:53PM

Marcusm wrote: »

1. We agree on the meaning of void.

And?

You originally posted "Void means not valid, legally binding or effective. Do you suggest that not valid and invalid are different? Do you think invalid is some lesser form of nothingness than “void”?"

Please don't be dishonest or disingenuous. You were found out not knowing the difference between invalid and void, and now you're trying to pretend that because we "agree" on the meaning of void so it doesn't matter that you didn't know that invalid doesn't mean the same as void?

2. The 2006 regs ( http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/si/537/made/en/print ) do not say “any”, at reg 12.4, it specifies:

An application for a driving licence shall be accompanied by -

(a) where the applicant -

(i) is the holder of a driving licence or a recognised driving licence, such licence,

It is clear that “a driving licence” means one issued in Ireland and “recognised driving licence” is further defined as
“recognised driving licence” means a licence or permit issued by the competent authority of a state (other than the State) to which an order under section 23A (inserted by section 8 of the Road Traffic Act 2006 ) of the Act applies;.

The EU Directive of 2006 quite obviously supersedes Irish legislation from 2006. My bad though, when I said 2006 regs i meant the 2006 directive.

5.

(a)

No person may hold more than one driving licence;

(b)

A Member State shall refuse to issue a licence where it establishes that the applicant already holds a driving licence;

(c)

Member States shall take the necessary measures pursuant to point (b). The necessary measures as regards the issue, replacement, renewal or exchange of a driving licence shall be to verify with other Member States where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the applicant is already the holder of another driving licence;

(d)

In order to facilitate the checks pursuant to point (b), Member States shall use the EU driving licence network once it is operational.

Without prejudice to Article 2, a Member State issuing a licence shall apply due diligence to ensure that a person fulfils the requirements set out in paragraph 1 of this Article and shall apply its national provisions on the cancellation or withdrawal of the right to drive if it is established that a licence has been issued without the requirements having been met.

3. The EU doesn’t issue driving licences, that is the competency of the member states.

I already specified (via a member state), but thanks for stating the obvious.

The EU, via directives, sets out the basis on which member states may issue licences. The directives specify the broad parameters of the law which then must be transposed into domestic legislation. In Ireland that is done via secondary legislation as the Minister is authorised to lay SIs under the Road Traffic Acts.

What does that have to do with anything? It certainly doesn't address the howler you posted where you said "Directives for your edification take force when transposed into national law in accordance with local law.", which was completely wrong.

However you want to look at it, Ireland required the handing up of the U.K. licence and this was not done. The Irish licence is not valid.

The EU directive only states that you can't hold more than one driving licence. It doesn't state which driving licence you must surrender if found to be holding multiple or anything of the sort, as that is left up to national legislation. What's your evidence for the Irish licence being invalid, rather than the OP being able to surrender the UK one and hold on to the Irish?

In some jurisdictions it might be valid until withdrawn. In Ireland, I believe it was a dead letter, ie outside the powers of the licensing authority and thus void from the start.

You haven't posted a single source to confirm that while the EU Directive quite clearly implies that a licence isn't voided, you don't need to 'withdraw' or 'cancel' something that's voided.

Do you have a pathological aversion to admitting you're wrong?

Let's see:

You didn't know what fraud was

You didn't know the difference between invalid and void

You didn't know that legislation can come into operation at a future date after being signed into law

You've refused to provide the Irish legislation that you're basing your entire arguments on

And you're still posting as if you have a shred of credibility.

Marcusm · 10-03-2019 07:48AM

Deleted User wrote: »

And?

You originally posted "Void means not valid, legally binding or effective. Do you suggest that not valid and invalid are different? Do you think invalid is some lesser form of nothingness than “void”?"

Please don't be dishonest or disingenuous. You were found out not knowing the difference between invalid and void, and now you're trying to pretend that because we "agree" on the meaning of void so it doesn't matter that you didn't know that invalid doesn't mean the same as void?

The EU Directive of 2006 quite obviously supersedes Irish legislation from 2006. My bad though, when I said 2006 regs i meant the 2006 directive.

I already specified (via a member state), but thanks for stating the obvious.

What does that have to do with anything? It certainly doesn't address the howler you posted where you said "Directives for your edification take force when transposed into national law in accordance with local law.", which was completely wrong.

The EU directive only states that you can't hold more than one driving licence. It doesn't state which driving licence you must surrender if found to be holding multiple or anything of the sort, as that is left up to national legislation. What's your evidence for the Irish licence being invalid, rather than the OP being able to surrender the UK one and hold on to the Irish?

You haven't posted a single source to confirm that while the EU Directive quite clearly implies that a licence isn't voided, you don't need to 'withdraw' or 'cancel' something that's voided.

Do you have a pathological aversion to admitting you're wrong?

Let's see:

You didn't know what fraud was

You didn't know the difference between invalid and void

You didn't know that legislation can come into operation at a future date after being signed into law

You've refused to provide the Irish legislation that you're basing your entire arguments on

And you're still posting as if you have a shred of credibility.

I did ask before if when referring to 2006 regs you were referring to the 2006 EU directive. As you did not respond directly and continued to refer to 2006 regs, I understood you were expressly referring to them.

The directive is now law in Ireland and does not take effect directly and it does not supersede Irish law. It is a direction from the mothership to change Irish law to ensure a consistent (note consistent not identical) set of laws exists across the EU.

Provided the Irish law is consistent, it is up to the member state to determine the mechanics in which it takes effect. It is clearly a condition of the issuance of an Irish driving licence thatvthe recoggnised driving licence be surrendered. As that material condition was not adhered to, in my opinion (and it is only opinion), this renders the Irish licence void/invalid (and in these respects and in these circumstances I am using those terms interchangeably). This is consistent with ireland’s requirement to ensure that “due diligence” is performed, that additional licences are not held and that any purported to be issued are “withdrawn or cancelled”. It seems clear that the actions do not per se invalidate the pre existing licence so it is easy to see that in order to give effect to the requirement that 2 licences not be held that it is the Irish one which must cease to exist.

To understand the incorporation of EU directives in to Irish law, you can read here.

Directives
Directives require EU countries to achieve a certain result, but leave them free to choose how to do so. EU countries must adopt measures to incorporate them into national law (transpose) in order to achieve the objectives set by the directive. National authorities must communicate these measures to the European Commission.

Transposition into national law must take place by the deadline set when the directive is adopted (generally within 2 years). When a country does not transpose a directive, the Commission may initiate infringement proceedings.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/types-eu-law_en

Your outrage and antagonistic approach is well suited to After Hours.

Jamsiek · 27-03-2019 02:56PM

Phoenix Better Roster wrote: »

There is significant advantages to having two passports depending on which passports you have. I’m not sure about the “not always to your advantage” bit. I know one or two people with two passports and they often enter a country on one and leave on another depending where they are going and it makes things very handy.

Having two EU licenses may only have a few specific benefits mostly related to insurance.

But being able to hold an EU and US license (which is easy enough to achieve) is of massive advantage and similar with some other non-eu licenses.

Agreed. I have Irish and Canadian passports and driving licenses and not giving up any of them. It's the best of both worlds as I can travel around Europe or North America with zero hassle.

Having passports or licenses from two European countries probably wouldn't be much benefit though IMO

Holding both Irish and UK driving licences

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