Dublin Metro South vs Luas

L1011 wrote: »

Certain PRM, not all

100% low floor aisle is a given on any new tram, a hypothetical design without it wouldn't be acceptable.

The 3000/4000 series trams on the Red Line are 70% low floor - which is fine, as they're 16 years old already.

Excuse my ignorance, but what does PRM stand for?

L1011 wrote: »

Persons with Reduced Mobility, transport industry term for those for who accessibility measures / assistance is required and hopefully provided.

Okay, I have misjudged the proposal to upgrade Charlemont - Sandyford into a metro line. I now understand why it makes sense and I apologize for this long debate about higher capacity trams as an alternative to metro vehicles. Hopefully Metrolink from Swords to Sandyford will be implemented.

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Seems bonkers to de-rail metro for a large chunk of the southern metro on the basis of scare stories of years of closures and a relatively minor inconvenience to locals for one road. Parish pump at its finest in the south side.

On the one hand this is the localism and short term thinking I always complain about - but I think of the hospital and other big plans in Ireland that became disasters and I think is it THAT unreasonable of them to worry this will be a train crash that will go on for years?

hmmm wrote: »

Plans have been approved for a town of 25,000 people in Cherrywood at the far end of the LUAS, and lots more development in places like Leopardstown and Sandyford. Currently it's difficult to get on the LUAS at peak times.

The line has to be upgraded, or it grinds to a halt. A small group of very wealthy residents in a low density suburb in Ranelagh (who don't use the luas) have mounted a very effective campaign to block it, and gob****e politicians have fallen for it. They might get a surprise when they next knock on doors.

They should never make the mistake of thinking the loudest voices represent the majority - look at the abortion vote - this is why I've been encouraging everyone here to talk about how they want to spend money on PT infrastructure more than they want tax cuts when canvassers call around, change this impression of me feinism people have going.

jhenno78 wrote: »

Same old myths that the government has been too lame to debunk.

It's disruption to the service for 2 years, not closure. ie. different sections will need to be closed for certain limited periods over a 2-year period. The possibility of 4 years only comes into it when it takes baffling re-route south of beechwood.

SW route? Sure, it's totally justified in itself. If you've got an extra 3-4 billion knocking around then go for it. The green-line upgrade only accounts for a few percent of the budget. Also, the green line will need to be turned into metro soon anyway.

As to building a metro line on other land to the south west...that suggestion...urghh
It does seem like a huge waste to build what would basically be a duplication line.

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Excuse my naivety, but is there no provision under a CPO for situations like this? I.E, if a small group of people hold up and block a critical piece of infrastructure, can their protests not be overridden for the common good?

This is about two things, neither are about law or practicality:


1. In the internet age everyone thinks they are an expert because they can read the stuff themselves online, a really fatal assumption (think about the difference between reading how to do bypass surgery and actually doing it with a scalpel in your hand a few hours later) reading about something and being formally trained in it are not the same.


2. Irish politics, IMO because of the way our political system is designed, makes politicians hostages to local everything, there is no joined up national thinking instead there are a load of constituencies which are planned for an exist as local fiefdoms in their own right like the country is a broken jigsaw puzzzle, and the politicos don't get that these are a few malcontents, they think it represents a general view and are terrified to go against them.


Most Irish politicians pander instead of leading.

Did you see Ross on the news last night? (much of this is about his area) he said he was totally opposed to a 4 year closure, playing into the idea that there would be one, in essence confirming it.


What he should have said was:


"yes of course I'd oppose a 4 year closure that's absurd, but that's not what is being proposed, people are misinterpreting the plans when they read them, there would be disruption for a period not the entire line closed for that period, but small sections of it...our choice is to do this now or be over capacity in a few years, you may notice you can barely get on a luas in the morning NOW, imagine in 2027 when there is are 100,000 more people living on just the southern portion of that line? we have to do this for the long term greater good, and if that inconveniences small segments of people in the short term so be it, i will stay on top of this to ensure the plans are such that a disruption of that scale never happens, but we have to do this one way or the other"





But it's much easier to just throw the seal a fish when you know for sure that will make them clap. So now people who drive around in gas guzzling mercs and BMWs and never seen the inside of a Luas will be screwing younger working people over the next decade who will have to get up an hour or so earlier to have a better chance of squeezing into an overcrowded luas to have a good chance of getting to work on time...but it's ok as long as Tara gets her mochachinno faster right?

CatInABox wrote: »

In fairness, there's plenty of major projects that went off with only minor issues. At this stage, we've built dozens of motorways, two luas lines which have been extended successfully multiple times, and crucially for the Metrolink, we've built the one of the longest urban tunnels in Europe.

We're able to build these things, and our expertise is admired the world over, it's getting them through the political and legal system that we have a problem with.

It's not unreasonable to worry about cost or time ovverruns, but I think we need more CPO/eminent domain power in this country, as well as switch to MM PR so on a second ballot people vote for a PARTY as well as a person, that way we have people in the Dail who think on a NATIONAL level.


It's crazy that a small number of people put an indo in the job and hold this up, esp when his indo alliance said they'd not be like other independents that they would have a national vision, which we can now put in the same place as Labour Ireland and the UK lib dems promises on third level fees and the latters promise on PR...the bin.


Someone needs to talk to these residents like adults and tell them you made a mistake, you have misunderstood the plan, and were going ahead without you.

ohographite wrote: »

Okay, I have misjudged the proposal to upgrade Charlemont - Sandyford into a metro line. I now understand why it makes sense and I apologize for this long debate about higher capacity trams as an alternative to metro vehicles. Hopefully Metrolink from Swords to Sandyford will be implemented.

What are you doing? Don't you know how the internet is supposed to work? :eek:


Don't you know of the Dunning Kurger effect? You are meant to act like you know everything and everyone else is stupid! If people give you a good argument that starts to change your mind you are meant to immediately disengage your brain and engage your irrational emotional lizard brain reactions: "them other...other not me...other bad...me hate other". You are meant to think it's not possible to be persuaded by a good argument like a grown adult, you must instead think that changing your mind on a topic is a surrender and that it makes you a loser and a failure because it means you were in error before and not perfect and the net says everyone else is perfect, i mean they look perfect in their Instagram photos so they must BE perfect right? Those are not snapshots in time surely?



So since changing your mind = surrender, and surrendering is for losers, you can't change your mind. But you can't win on the merits of your argument as you've realized that it's in error...so what to do? You must attack the other person personally, make judgements about the kind of person they are even though you know nothing about them, hurl abuse at them, via an anonymous online name, that's the brave thing to do, and it will make you feel better because it means (snigger) they're stupid and you're not!

Considering that reworking the Green Line would involve not only reworking the existing alignment, closing grade crossings, some substation work as well, but also qualifying new equipment and operators over it, it seems unbelievable to be that Green Line downtown will be measured in months.

There is no guarantee that an unexpected event (in addition to all the expected reasons for delay) could not cause significant lag

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-light-rail-tunnel-collapse-1.3846147
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/city-of-ottawa-root-cause-report-rideau-sinkhole-1.4054616

Of course any DART interruption such as weather or industrial relations would be all the more painful without a fully functional LUAS

Sending Metro South towards Rathmines and Terenure instead creates a new transport alignment to take pressure off the Green Line inner catchment without a day's downtime for LUAS, and also reduces the need to push buses through these congested districts.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Mickey McDowell really should declare his interest in his investment property that backs on to the line in Ranelagh when writing about this issue;

https://twitter.com/SenatorMcDowell/status/1099440540137996289

Does he not live in that house? There was a sentry there when he was justice minister.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Manders Terrace is rented out afaik?

The sentry was posted on Charleston Road adjacent to the Luas bridge.

hmmm wrote: »

It does very little for the Green line catchment, which is due to see thousands of new apartments built along it in the next few years.

I wish people advocating for Metros/monorails to their own areas would realise that none of this is either/or - as if you have to get the Green line cancelled in order to get a line into your own area. The Green line upgrade will cost a relatively small amount, a brand new Metro line will cost billions and needs to serve more than a few wealthy areas full of 2 story houses.

The people who take the Green Line aren't all living in apartments adjoining the line, clearly. A metro path through Rathmines is going to attract some current Green Line custom. At Rathgar, there would only be a walk of ~1700m between a Metro stop and the LUAS Cowper stop.

While you assert that upgrading Green is not an either/or for other projects, there is only one way Metro is going to be extended and to do so into a currently functioning rapid transit line and given the startup costs for any further alignments into the city centre, it amounts to that.

An upgraded Green adds no resilency into the Dublin public transport network - an additional rapid transit alignment does, and likely removes more total buses from the centre than a Green upgrade would.

To the extent that one or more of planned road closures could help the existing service by allowing safe operation of additional frequencies. that could be looked at, perhaps?

As for "a few wealthy areas full of 2 story houses", this OSI map shows there is plenty of density in inner Dublin, not just in the direction of the Green line.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

A SW metro won't attract enough volume to eliminate the green line capacity issues. With the housing being built, planned to be built and additional custom from the north side an upgrade is the only option. ML would in fact add more resilience than SW metro as you'll end up with ML, GL North and GL South

Also there wouldn’t be anything like enough trip generators on the sw part to balance out the Northside part. The sw would be massively one way traffic with the city centre the driver in the morning and home in the evening. The airport and sandyford/Leopardstown created a bit of balance for for trips which would help the yields.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Mickey McDowell really should declare his interest in his investment property that backs on to the line in Ranelagh when writing about this issue;

https://twitter.com/SenatorMcDowell/status/1099440540137996289

Rather, every time he opens his mouth he should be hammered on his bias by other journalists. That he can get away without having to declare his personal interest in the matter fundamentally undermines our democracy.

Leave them to it, take the money and build the turn back at Stephen’s Green and resist when those unable to use the Green Line at peak in four year’s time come crying for an upgrade. I bet they won’t want a diversion out via Terenure then!

This is dreadful manipulative politicking and expression of narrow private interest of the worst sort. And when those between Sandyford and Dundrum realise what has happened when those Cherrywood apartments open it will be too late. And they’ll be angry. Very angry. Of course, Ross, McDowell and many others will be shuffled off from public life and avoid the consequences.

The Green Line in its current form is mortally wounded. Its death as a viable transport option is inevitable. The clock ticks, the apartments are being built. It is just a matter of time.

Would there be a possibility of operating a very high frequency service between Sandyford and Charlemont? This section of line should be able to take it and many passengers can then connect onto Metrolink. Then every second luas continues through the city centre to broombridge. Admittedly this might require the addition of a third platform in charlemont but I'm sure that could be managed. This might help with capacity issues.