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BMW timing chain issues (2018 update)

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24

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    #32
    Vicxas
    Registered Users Posts: 15,298 ✭✭✭✭Vicxas


    Friend of mine bought a second hand 5 Series diesel manufactured in early 2011.

    Driving home the car just died and he couldnt get it to start again. Fast forward to yesterday after Murphy and Gunn took a look at it, and the timing chain failed spectacularly it seems and took most of the engine with it.

    The good news is that M&G fought his corner with BMW Ireland and they agreed to some goodwill to get it repaired.

    So be careful out there, seems like those engines are still dying a death.


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    #33
    MetzgerMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 19,854 ✭✭✭✭MetzgerMeister


    A friend of mine (and member on boards) was about to buy an F30 330d with the N57 engine from the North. After he had made enquiries and was about to process payment the chain snapped in it and made sh!te of the engine. The car had 100,000 kms on it at the time.

    Personally I think it's down to the long service intervals which is why I'm doing oil changes at least once a year now that the service pack is up on mine.

    Also the chain issue is less reported on the six cylinders for 3 reasons IMO:

    1. Less of them sold

    2. As mentioned, the 6 cylinder has an easier life in theory.

    3. Much more oil in the engine - so even with long intervals it stays a bit fresher. The N57 has a capacity of 9 litres. The N47 only takes 5.2, so you can do a lot more miles on the same oil, BMWs ridiculously long service intervals are much easier to justify when the engine takes so much more oil. Plus the superior refinement of a six cylinder engine means the chain has a much easier time.


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    #34
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    MetzgerMeister wrote: »
    Also the chain issue is less reported on the six cylinders for 2 reasons IMO: 1. Less of them sold and 2. As mentioned, the 6 cylinder has an easier life in theory.

    3. Much more oil in the engine - so even with long intervals it stays a bit fresher...


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    #35
    rex-x
    Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭rex-x


    MetzgerMeister wrote: »
    A friend of mine (and member on boards) was about to buy an F30 330d with the N57 engine from the North. After he had made enquiries and was about to process payment the chain snapped in it and made sh!te of the engine. The car had 100,000 kms on it at the time.

    Personally I think it's down to the long service intervals which is why I'm doing oil changes at least once a year now that the service pack is up on mine.

    Also the chain issue is less reported on the six cylinders for 2 reasons IMO: 1. Less of them sold and 2. As mentioned, the 6 cylinder has an easier life in theory.

    The biggest reason is the oil capacity it's almost twice as much on the 3.0 engine


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    #36
    testicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,198 ✭✭✭testicles


    This post has been deleted.


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    #37
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    rex-x wrote: »
    MetzgerMeister wrote: »
    A friend of mine (and member on boards) was about to buy an F30 330d with the N57 engine from the North. After he had made enquiries and was about to process payment the chain snapped in it and made sh!te of the engine. The car had 100,000 kms on it at the time.

    Personally I think it's down to the long service intervals which is why I'm doing oil changes at least once a year now that the service pack is up on mine.

    Also the chain issue is less reported on the six cylinders for 2 reasons IMO: 1. Less of them sold and 2. As mentioned, the 6 cylinder has an easier life in theory.

    The biggest reason is the oil capacity it's almost twice as much on the 3.0 engine
    This. The N57 has a capacity of 9 litres. The N47 only takes 5.2, so you can do a lot more miles on the same oil, BMWs ridiculously long service intervals are much easier to justify when the engine takes so much more oil. Plus the superior refinement of a six cylinder engine means the chain has a much easier time.


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    #38
    rabbitinlights
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭rabbitinlights


    testicles wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I think we were just talking about the specific engine, rather than car models.


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    #39
    djan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭djan


    What are peoples thoughts on the N20 x28i petrol engines? Would these be on par in terms of reliability as the post '11 models?


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    #40
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    djan wrote: »
    What are peoples thoughts on the N20 x28i petrol engines? Would these be on par in terms of reliability as the post '11 models?

    Haven't heard of any problems with them, but then again very few cars were sold with this engine in Europe. Always struck me as a somewhat silly engine when the diesel equivalents in the range offered more power and mpg - and six cylinders (when you compare the x28i to the x30d model).


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    captainspeed wrote: »
    .....Always struck me as a somewhat silly engine when the diesel equivalents in the range offered more power and mpg - and six cylinders (when you compare the x28i to the x30d model).

    I suppose for folks not doing much mileage the x28i would be a savy enough choice. Especially compared to the x20d options.


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    #42
    millington
    Registered Users Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭millington


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Oh yes I'm not saying there was no issue. There was and BMW didn't do themselves any favours by how they handled it.
    But the truth is to get the chain done on an N47 you need to take the entire engine out. Its just not economical on the older models. And it only applied to the really old ones with the crap chain. In around 2010/2011 the problem was mitigated with a new tensioner. That one could be done without taking the engine out, much cheaper. As far as I know from the F30 onwards no catastrophic failures were reported. I mean apart from the odd weird outlier, but you always get those in any brand or make. And the F30 started in 2012 or late 2011 even?

    I would apply good common sense. If I was looking at a 2010 F10 I'd just listen to the chain. If she's noisy maybe I stay away. If she's not what are the chances she'll start tomorrow? She lasted this long after all...
    I know of 2 F30s that had catastrophic chain failure & I know of a 2010 E90 that had the chain start to rattle in the last few weeks.

    I also owned a 2011 F10 that had previously had an engine replacement due to a snapped chain.

    As far as I have seen, every N47 in every model has this problem. Can't speak for the 6 cylinders.


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    #43
    mossym
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭mossym


    millington wrote: »

    As far as I have seen, every N47 in every model has this problem. Can't speak for the 6 cylinders.

    every is a broad term. i've a 2011 f10, 520d automatic. coming up on 200k km and knock on wood but it's been perfect.

    i know of several others that have been similar. i also know quite a few which have had the issue.


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    #44
    millington
    Registered Users Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭millington


    mossym wrote: »
    every is a broad term. i've a 2011 f10, 520d automatic. coming up on 200k km and knock on wood but it's been perfect.

    i know of several others that have been similar. i also know quite a few which have had the issue.

    What I mean is every version of the N47 as theres a few different engine codes


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    #45
    Stallingrad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,149 ✭✭✭Stallingrad


    I have not heard of N47 failures post 2011, hard to believe that they did not correct all the issues by the 2012 onward.


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    #46
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,171 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    The problem is that it's a flaw in the design of the engine, they made modifications over the engine's life cycle to reduce the risk of failure (hence the variation in engine codes) but the underlying design flaw was still there until the engine was superseeded by the B47 engine in mid 2014.

    FWIW I've owned two cars with the N47 engine (2008 and 2011) and never had issues with them but I do know some people who did so its really a case of pay your money and take your chances imo. I'd certainly look for a car with a service history of more frequent interval oil changes than BMW recommend. It certainly reduces the risk.


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    #47
    testicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,198 ✭✭✭testicles


    This post has been deleted.


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    #48
    fmul9798
    Registered Users Posts: 758 ✭✭✭fmul9798


    Plenty of reports of failure on late 2011 models - check the usual UK forums. I doubt it was ever truly fixed.


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    #49
    rabbitinlights
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭rabbitinlights


    testicles wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yes it is, it's the twin sequential turbo version of the 2L N47.


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    #50
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    rabbitinlights wrote: »
    Yes it is, it's the twin sequential turbo version of the 2L N47.

    From the same engine family yes, but they are not the same. x23ds are N47S, the x25ds are N47S1.


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    #51
    rabbitinlights
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭rabbitinlights


    captainspeed wrote: »
    From the same engine family yes, but they are not the same. x23ds are N47S, the x25ds are N47S1.

    Interesting - What's the difference apart from the name? - I always thought it was just a different tune/compression to get from 204 to 218bhp?


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    #52
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    rabbitinlights wrote: »
    Interesting - What's the difference apart from the name? - I always thought it was just a different tune/compression to get from 204 to 218bhp?

    Not sure really, I'd imagine they changed some parts in the engine, they wouldn't just give it a slightly different code for no reason though.

    Usually they give them a new code to address a known fault with the original design, for example the N52N doesn't have the problem with the hydraulic tappets losing oil pressure and making a ticking noise when started up from cold that the N52 engine suffers from.

    A new code often doesn't result in a change to power and torque, it's usually addressing a design flaw (see above) or trying to reduce emissions (as is the case with the brand new B47D engine for the x20d models compared to the original B47 engine).


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    #53
    dub14
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭dub14


    Just spotted this thread.

    I've a 2012 5 series with 140k km. I need to get the flywheel replaced and I'm wondering should I go ahead and get the chain done now while the car is on the ramp anyway.

    I'm going to an indy that i trust and he's giving me prices for both options tomorrow (with or without the chain). I'll probably hold onto the car for another few years anyway. I'm guessing both jobs will be 2K or close to it

    Any thoughts


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    #54
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    dub14 wrote: »
    Just spotted this thread.

    I've a 2012 5 series with 140k km. I need to get the flywheel replaced and I'm wondering should I go ahead and get the chain done now while the car is on the ramp anyway.

    I'm going to an indy that i trust and he's giving me prices for both options tomorrow (with or without the chain). I'll probably hold onto the car for another few years anyway. I'm guessing both jobs will be 2K or close to it

    Any thoughts

    Is there any sounds such as rattling?

    I would go with his advice which may well be the safe bet and change.

    Look at it this way can you afford to lose the engine if it were to go.


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    #55
    rex-x
    Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭rex-x


    dub14 wrote: »
    Just spotted this thread.

    I've a 2012 5 series with 140k km. I need to get the flywheel replaced and I'm wondering should I go ahead and get the chain done now while the car is on the ramp anyway.

    I'm going to an indy that i trust and he's giving me prices for both options tomorrow (with or without the chain). I'll probably hold onto the car for another few years anyway. I'm guessing both jobs will be 2K or close to it

    Any thoughts

    There would be small savings to be made. The engine has to come out to do the chain, it doesn't for gearbox/flywheel, although they do have to come off to do the chain. If its not making any noise at the moment I would just motor on, keep an eye and service regularly (15k km's max)

    Chain and flywheel/clutch together would be over 2k


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    #56
    KFed
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭KFed


    My timing chain started rattling at 90k km so had it replaced. Total cost was c. 2k at a reputable bmw independent. It's not just the chain that's replaced, there's a few more bits and pieces, but it's the labour that really drives the price.

    Im not sure if there's always a rattle prior to failure or if there's a risk of a catastrophic failure with no prior notice. If it's a 2012 5 series, it's still a valuable car. If the chain goes it may destroy the engine and wrote off the car, economically. If you pay out the 2k and replace it, it should be good for end of life really.

    So, you'd get a lot of piece of mind for the 2k if you're going to keep the car long term.

    That said, if you don't spend it, keep an ear out for a rattle, it may be good for life regardless.

    Is the root cause of the failures not that the pitch of the teeth were off thus wearing into the chain over time leading to failure? I thought that was the root cause and would explain why some cars go and others are fine?

    Would more frequent oil changes solve the underlying problem?


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    #57
    windyout
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭windyout


    Thanks for the quick responses. I think if the uplift isn't too bad I'll get it all done and then that's it done for good (i don't do high mileage). There is no rattle that i've heard. There is a vibration in neutral and low gears but thats the flywheel. As KFed says its still a valuable car and to be honest there is no real benefit in changing it apart from a newer reg. Still a lovely drive and all internals working perfectly (air con, heated seats etc). If I was to trade in for a newer version it would cost me a lot more than 2K for very little benefit (i'm in a positive mood tonight :-))


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    #58
    lomb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,031 ✭✭✭lomb


    djan wrote: »
    What are peoples thoughts on the N20 x28i petrol engines? Would these be on par in terms of reliability as the post '11 models?

    I've an n20 28i in a z4. I've had the valvetronic motor and engine ecu fry. Likely as the engine runs hot. Ive removed the engine cover and insulation to keep it cool so it doesnt happen again.The turbo went around 35000 miles(white smoke from exhaust on startup a seal failure as it runs hot) They all have this and bmw recalled in the States for this.There is an issue is oil pump chain and main timing chain failure around 60000 miles on average due to plastic timing chain guides breaking and chain slap. There's a lawsuit in the States over this issue. On the bright side the chain is on the front of the engine unlike the diesels I think where the engine has to come out.
    Great engine though it has to be said. 245bhp with instant high torque. Good economy too.


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    #59
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    lomb wrote: »
    I've an n20 28i in a z4. I've had the valvetronic motor and engine ecu fry. Likely as the engine runs hot. Ive removed the engine cover and insulation to keep it cool so it doesnt happen again.The turbo went around 35000 miles(white smoke from exhaust on startup a seal failure as it runs hot) They all have this and bmw recalled in the States for this.There is an issue is oil pump chain and main timing chain failure around 60000 miles on average due to plastic timing chain guides breaking and chain slap. There's a lawsuit in the States over this issue. On the bright side the chain is on the front of the engine unlike the diesels I think where the engine has to come out.
    Great engine though it has to be said. 245bhp with instant high torque. Good economy too.

    Oouch. Sooo typical to BMW tough - progressive enginiering that bellies up soon enough.

    New Supra comes with BMW engines - but will not be offer with the stronger motors in some markets (exp. Australia) where Toyota historically offers longer bumper-to-bumper warranties. BMW simply refuses to stand by their engines for so long :D


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MetzgerMeister wrote: »
    .......

    3. Much more oil in the engine - so even with long intervals it stays a bit fresher. The N57 has a capacity of 9 litres. The N47 only takes 5.2, so you can do a lot more miles on the same oil, BMWs ridiculously long service intervals are much easier to justify when the engine takes so much more oil. Plus the superior refinement of a six cylinder engine means the chain has a much easier time.


    I don't think the larger oil capacity on the 6 cyl is too significant ..... there's 50% more engine there so 50% more oil would be 7.8l...... the 9l in the 3.0 is probably needed to mitigate the longer heat up times :)


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    #61
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Augeo wrote: »
    I don't think the larger oil capacity on the 6 cyl is too significant ..... there's 50% more engine there so 50% more oil would be 7.8l...... the 9l in the 3.0 is probably needed to mitigate the longer heat up times :)

    There's 50% more combustion chamber size, that has nothing to do with oil capacity one way or another. ....

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