Front door handle - don't want to have to use key on inside

fjon · 25-01-2019 10:38AM #1

I'm probably going to make a balls of explaining this, but hopefully it makes sense.

My front door is one of those where you need to lift the handle and turn the key to lock it. Both inside and outside require a key to lock.
Is it possible to change the inside so that I don't need a key and just have to turn a lever such as this?
Would I need to buy a whole new pair of door handles, or it is possible to what's already in place?
Hope that makes sense!

xDerp · 25-01-2019 10:45AM

fjon wrote: »

I'm probably going to make a balls of explaining this, but hopefully it makes sense.

My front door is one of those where you need to lift the handle and turn the key to lock it. Both inside and outside require a key to lock.
Is it possible to change the inside so that I don't need a key and just have to turn a lever such as this?
Would I need to buy a whole new pair of door handles, or it is possible to what's already in place?
Hope that makes sense!

Is it a euro cylinder?

I think you're looking for something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Avocet-ABS-Quantum-Cylinder-Security/dp/B071VVGKR6/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1548409454&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=avocet+thumb+turn&psc=1

It takes a minute to switch them, make sure you measure the old one because they come with different internal and external lengths.

Spocker · 25-01-2019 10:59AM

You're looking for a thumb lock, any decent builders suppliers or DIY shop will have them

https://www.windowanddoorparts.ie/shop/door-parts/iseo-door-cylinder-barrel-thumb-turn/

As xDerp said, make sure to measure the one you currently have, it should just be a single screw on the side of the door holding it in place, easy to take out

fjon · 25-01-2019 11:11AM

Great, you guys are fast! Looks pretty simple - unscrew the screw on the side of the door, take the cylinder out and get one the same size with a thumb lock on it. Definitely seems doable! The fact that I need to life the handle before locking the door doesn't make any difference?

Edit - something like this seems like it would be the right thing.

Spocker · 25-01-2019 11:44AM

You'll still have to lift the handle, thats what puts the rest of the 3 or 5 point locking mechanism in place.

Yep, Woodies have them, heres a better filter/search: https://www.woodies.ie/catalogsearch/result/?q=thumbturn+euro

fjon · 25-01-2019 11:52AM

Thanks, that's very helpful. One more question - what size cylinder should I go for? The current one seems to be 40-5-40 (85 total). The cylinders seem to come in lengths of 70,80,90.
There is quite a bit of the cylinder protruding in the current one that's installed, so maybe an 80mm would work?

Pic of cylinder: https://imgur.com/X7cIp93
Pic of inside lock: https://imgur.com/a/kUvAUTD

Roddylarge · 25-01-2019 11:52AM

is it possible to change to a thumb turn but keep the existing lock.
Id like to do this but not have to go to the expense of getting new keys cut.

fjon · 25-01-2019 11:53AM

Roddylarge wrote: »

is it possible to change to a thumb turn but keep the existing lock.
Id like to do this but not have to go to the expense of getting new keys cut.

The cylinders aren't really that expensive, unless you have a fancy lock at the moment?

Roddylarge · 25-01-2019 11:54AM

its more the fact that as a family we have about 6/7 keys for the front door id rather not have to add in the expense of getting those all cut again.

listermint · 25-01-2019 02:40PM

Dont install a thumb lock, they are a burglars dream.

Its a fools errand as all it takes is a smash window and they are right in your front door in seconds and conversely if they get in somewhere else they have a handy exit out the front door with any / all large items inside.

Id recommend keeping the key

Cerco · 25-01-2019 02:42PM

If it is for outside door I would recommend an abs type. This protects against “bumping” and “snapping”, both techniques used by burglars.
You can also get the above with “anti drill” option.

Do not have the cylinder lock proud on the outside , where a vice grips can get a grip and break the cylinder (snapping). The anti snap locks have a sacrificial piece that comes away without breaking the whole cylinder, so lock remains intact.

You may have to go to a locksmith to get a thumb turn fitted on an abs lock.

They are made by Yale and Avocet amongst others.

fjon · 25-01-2019 02:46PM

listermint wrote: »

Dont install a thumb lock, they are a burglars dream.

Its a fools errand as all it takes is a smash window and they are right in your front door in seconds and conversely if they get in somewhere else they have a handy exit out the front door with any / all large items inside.

Id recommend keeping the key

Didn't think of that - there's a window right beside the door that if smashed would allow easy access to the lock.

However, the front door is extremely overlooked and I imagine it would take some effort to break a double-glazed window so might not be an ideal way to gain access.

listermint · 25-01-2019 02:47PM

fjon wrote: »

Didn't think of that - there's a window right beside the door that if smashed would allow easy access to the lock.

However, the front door is extremely overlooked and I imagine it would take some effort to break a double-glazed window so might not be an ideal way to gain access.

Double Glazed window can be smashed through in seconds. Community Garda will tell you a thumb lock is less than ideal. The benefits do not out weigh the risk

fjon · 25-01-2019 02:57PM

Just wondering - would there not be fire regulations with having an unimpeded escape route?
I'm in the top part of a duplex, and I believe they have more or less the same regulations as apartments?

Calibos · 25-01-2019 06:13PM

Ran into this issue after renovation that included new front door. Hated the fact that it was incumbent upon my feckless family to lock the door with the key whenever they came in otherwise the door could be simply opened from the outside with the handle.

I ended up drilling the door and fitting a standard Yale in addition to the existing multipoint lock. At least this way, someone couldnt simply walk in off the street during the day. We lock the main lock at night but again, at least there is some small backup with the Yale if a family member forgets to double lock the door when they come in at night.

Cerco · 25-01-2019 06:22PM

Calibos wrote: »

I ended up drilling the door and fitting a standard Yale in addition to the existing multipoint lock.

What type of door is it?
Would you mind posting a photo? I would like to do this for the same reason.
Is the lock fitted on the rim?
TIA.

Calibos · 26-01-2019 01:23AM

Cerco wrote: »

What type of door is it?
Would you mind posting a photo? I would like to do this for the same reason.
Is the lock fitted on the rim?
TIA.

Twas about 9 years ago but it was something like this one.

https://www.ie.screwfix.com/yale-bs-night-latch-brass-40mm.html

The part that wraps around the edge of the door prevented flush fitting because of the Metal strip of the other locks multipoint locking system running down the centre of the edge of the door from top to bottom on the door. I dremeled off a few millimeters (Still a few millimeters of metal away from the screwholes that you screw through into the edge of the door).

Might not be explaining well. Willl take a photo tomorrow if you want.

That said, Screwfix also seem to have other yales that are purely flush mount to the door with nothing wrapping around the edge of the door.

Cerco · 26-01-2019 07:28PM

Thanks Calibos, you have explained it well. I didn’t think about shaving off a few mill to get it fitting with multi point bar.
The non wrapping option would probably work better for me. I will take a look at screwfix
Cheers
Cerco

Quackster · 03-02-2019 05:16PM

listermint wrote: »

Dont install a thumb lock, they are a burglars dream.

Its a fools errand as all it takes is a smash window and they are right in your front door in seconds and conversely if they get in somewhere else they have a handy exit out the front door with any / all large items inside.

Id recommend keeping the key

I'd rather have my house burgled that have loved ones die in a house fire because they couldn't get the door open to escape because it was locked and the key wasn't in the inside lock.

Quackster · 03-02-2019 05:22PM

Calibos wrote: »

Ran into this issue after renovation that included new front door. Hated the fact that it was incumbent upon my feckless family to lock the door with the key whenever they came in otherwise the door could be simply opened from the outside with the handle.

The simplest way to solve this is to replace the door's lever/lever handles wth lever/pad handles. This prevents the door being opened from the outside without the key, even if it's not locked.

fjon · 03-02-2019 06:47PM

Quackster wrote: »

The simplest way to solve this is to replace the door's lever/lever handles wth lever/pad handles. This prevents the door being opened from the outside without the key, even if it's not locked.

Can someone not still smash the glass beside the door and reach in and open it though?

Quackster · 03-02-2019 07:12PM

fjon wrote: »

Can someone not still smash the glass beside the door and reach in and open it though?

If you opt for a thumb lock on the inside, yes.

But in my book fire safely trumps security. Always.

listermint · 04-02-2019 01:04AM

Quackster wrote: »

I'd rather have my house burgled that have loved ones die in a house fire because they couldn't get the door open to escape because it was locked and the key wasn't in the inside lock.

If the front door is your only planned escape option then I'm sorry . Your planning is terrible.

listermint · 04-02-2019 01:05AM

Quackster wrote: »

If you opt for a thumb lock on the inside, yes.

But in my book fire safely trumps security. Always.

Your plan is not safe. Are you a safety officer ? I suggest a retrain.

Calibos · 04-02-2019 03:50AM

Quackster wrote: »

The simplest way to solve this is to replace the door's lever/lever handles wth lever/pad handles. This prevents the door being opened from the outside without the key, even if it's not locked.

Are we sure we're talking about the same thing. My door handles need to be pushed up to engage the multipoint locking system before the key can be turned to lock.

dathi · 04-02-2019 10:12AM

Quackster wrote: »

The simplest way to solve this is to replace the door's lever/lever handles wth lever/pad handles. This prevents the door being opened from the outside without the key, even if it's not locked.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MACO-CTS-35-45mm-SPLIT-SPINDLE-PZ92-LOCK-CASE-GEARBOX-MECHANISM-FOR-UPVC-DOOR/173310842920?hash=item285a219828:m:mADtYYhmDl5J6SLAz9rTKWA:rk:6:pf:0

you need to replace the lock mechanism with a split spindle gearbox to prevent it being opened from the outside, not just the handle. as the locks that open with handle from outside have one metal spindle going from front to back , the split locks have two spindles that rotate independently

Sleeper12 · 04-02-2019 10:22AM

listermint wrote:

If the front door is your only planned escape option then I'm sorry . Your planning is terrible.

Usually with fires your planned escape routes are restricted. It's very possible that the front door is the only way out

TheChizler · 04-02-2019 10:33AM

listermint wrote: »

Your plan is not safe. Are you a safety officer ? I suggest a retrain.

What's the problem with having the front door as a possible escape route? Instead of keeping the secret to yourself.

From a burglary poing of view, if they're going to the bother of smashing a pane of glass to open a thumb lock, why not go to the bother of smashing a large enough window to enter through?

dathi · 04-02-2019 10:36AM

Quackster wrote: »

I'd rather have my house burgled that have loved ones die in a house fire because they couldn't get the door open to escape because it was locked and the key wasn't in the inside lock.

taken from the building regs TGDs part B fire safety

1.4.3.2 Door fastenings - In general, doors on
escape routes, whether or not the doors are fire
doors, should either not be fitted with lock, latch or
bolt fastenings, or they should only be fitted with
simple fastenings that can be readily operated in the
direction of escape without the use of a key

Quackster · 04-02-2019 10:43AM

Calibos wrote: »

Are we sure we're talking about the same thing. My door handles need to be pushed up to engage the multipoint locking system before the key can be turned to lock.

Yep, lever/pad handles work with the same multipoint locking systems and the lever or pad has to be pushed up to engage the multipoint locks too.

When you just close the door, the door is locked from the outside by the main latch (like the latch on an old-fashioned door). For additional security, you then have the option of engaging the multipoint locks using the key (or thumb-turn), as you would with standard lever/lever door handles.

Quackster · 04-02-2019 10:48AM

dathi wrote: »

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MACO-CTS-35-45mm-SPLIT-SPINDLE-PZ92-LOCK-CASE-GEARBOX-MECHANISM-FOR-UPVC-DOOR/173310842920?hash=item285a219828:m:mADtYYhmDl5J6SLAz9rTKWA:rk:6:pf:0

you need to replace the lock mechanism with a split spindle gearbox to prevent it being opened from the outside, not just the handle. as the locks that open with handle from outside have one metal spindle going from front to back , the split locks have two spindles that rotate independently

Yep, that may be true but IMO it's still a more satisfactory solution than fitting an additional latch lock. The lock mechanism in my own front door works with either lever/lever or lever/pad handles but I guess they wouldn't be fitted as standard in doors fitted with lever/lever handles.

Front door handle - don't want to have to use key on inside

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