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Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

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    #9032
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    tretorn wrote: »
    Most people in Ireland do not support abortion
    robindch wrote: »
    @tretorn - over to you.
    Since you haven't replied to the the moderator request to provide evidence to support your claim, I'm afraid that the claim is deemed "unsubstantiated" and any further claims to this effect may bring down the mighty wrath of the forum moderators.


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    #9033
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,365 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Spar supermarket chain in Northern Ireland caught up in promotion of anti-abortion agenda
    A majority shareholder linked to the Spar supermarket chain in Northern Ireland has been caught promoting a strong anti-abortion agenda which is against any legal reforms in Northern Ireland, it has been revealed.

    In December 2018, Ardbarron Trust Ltd, a Christian Charitable Trust and majority shareholder in Henderson Group (which runs the Spar wholesale and retail grocery business in Northern Ireland), made a submission to the UK’s Government’s Women and Equalities Committee seeking to influence its decision making on Northern Ireland’s abortion laws.

    In its submission, Ardbarron Trust Ltd, wrote: ‘The law in NI, as it currently stands is pro-life and that is our deeply held conviction to protect unborn children. Life is God’s gift to us and we are thankful that the current legal framework in NI has protected many, estimated at 100,000 people alive today as a consequence.’

    It goes on to say: ‘Devolution has protected the unborn as locally elected representatives made clear in February 2016… The number of abortions carried out in GB is staggering and often for social reasons only… We are glad that Northern Ireland is “out of step” with the rest of the UK and the wider world.’

    Humanists UK, which campaigns for the legalisation of abortion in Northern Ireland, said it was shocked by Ardbarron Trust Ltd’s submission and says the Northern Irish public deserved to know that Spar has links to an anti-abortion, anti-women’s rights agenda.

    Abortion law in Northern Ireland is one of the most restrictive in Europe and the criminal sanctions imposed are amongst the harshest in the world, with the maximum sentence being life imprisonment.

    Current restrictions force women to either travel to the UK to receive treatment, risk prosecution for procuring illegal online abortion pills, or continue their pregnancies against their wishes and in violation of their rights. There is no exception made for pregnancies that arise as a result of sexual crime or where there is a diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality.

    Humanists UK has also learned that Spar stocks Ashers Bakery products and that Ashers Bakery also made a submission to the Women and Equalities committee. Ashers Bakery made headlines after the famous ‘gay cake’ case where the Bakery refused to bake a cake with a slogan that supported same-sex marriage.

    Northern Ireland Humanists coordinator Boyd Sleator said: ‘It’s shocking that a majority shareholder in one of Northern Ireland’s biggest retail chains is making submissions about women’s reproductive rights to the UK Government, promoting views that are very harmful to the rights of women and totally counterproductive to the hard work being done to legalise abortion in Northern Ireland.

    ‘Spar in Northern Ireland, and across the UK, should make clear that it does not hold the same views as Spar in Northern Ireland’s majority shareholder, and take a strong stance by distancing themselves from these views and this company.

    ‘Employees, along with customers who shop there, deserve to know that this franchise has links to stopping progressive reforms of women’s rights in Northern Ireland. To press for something that the European Convention of Human Rights has specifically said is against people’s human rights is completely deplorable.’

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #9034
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Spar supermarket chain in Northern Ireland caught up in promotion of anti-abortion agenda

    Great. Wonderful to hear Spar is pro women unlike the anti women Humanist Association. I will make sure to give Spar custom.


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    #9035
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Great. Wonderful to hear Spar is pro women unlike the anti women Humanist Association. I will make sure to give Spar custom.

    Being anti abortion is not being pro women.


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    #9036
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Great. Wonderful to hear Spar is pro women unlike the anti women Humanist Association. I will make sure to give Spar custom.
    Opposing the availability of abortion is inherently anti women.
    You and your friends have show time and time again that you put women's rights far behind things like the right to conscientious objection or the right to trick people into coming to your anti-abortion counseling service.

    In what way is the Humanist Association anti-women? Please also provide evidence for this, as we will not believe your unsupported claims.

    Also, any chance you'll be going back to address the points I made to you and the questions you ignored?


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    #9037
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,574 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Great. Wonderful to hear Spar is pro women unlike the anti women Humanist Association. I will make sure to give Spar custom.

    Southern or Northern Spar branch?


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    #9038
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Calina wrote: »
    Being anti abortion is not being pro women.

    He knows that; he's just trying to get people's backs up.


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    #9039
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    He knows that; he's just trying to get people's backs up.

    Yes but for the benefit of waverers....


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    #9040
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Southern or Northern Spar branch?

    Could be worth dropping an email to the Southern Branch asking for comment.


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    #9041
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,132 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Great. Wonderful to hear Spar is pro women unlike the anti women Humanist Association. I will make sure to give Spar custom.

    The anti-women Humanist association?

    I think that ranks up there with the most bizarre statements in A&A. On boards, even.

    It's in a special class of statements, like "fascist liberals", "atheism is a religion", "atheists believe in nothing", "feminists are really anti-women" and so on.

    And that's where I stop. I don't want a ban. :rolleyes:


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    #9042
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    I predict that any protests at GP surgeries will be small-scale and sporadic and will quickly melt away as the protestors realize they're not making a blind bit of difference.

    Here's an article confirming my clairvoyance:P
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/11/irish-gps-slow-to-offer-abortions-despite-muted-backlash
    “We’re going around wondering, ‘are they planning something we’ve missed?’” said Mary Favier, a prominent pro-choice campaigner and GP who provides abortion services in Cork. “But we can’t see what it’s going to be.”

    Besides a fleeting protest in Galway – half a dozen people with placards picketed a surgery for a few hours – abortion has become available in 22 of Ireland’s 26 counties with barely any fuss.


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    #9043
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    The anti-women Humanist association?

    I think that ranks up there with the most bizarre statements in A&A. On boards, even.

    It's in a special class of statements, like "fascist liberals", "atheism is a religion", "atheists believe in nothing", "feminists are really anti-women" and so on.

    And that's where I stop. I don't want a ban. :rolleyes:
    Humanism is pro women but what this group espouses isn't humanist. It's a sop to moral relativism.


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    #9044
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Humanism is pro women but what this group espouses isn't humanist. It's a sop to moral relativism.
    Please explain, using evidence and examples, how the Humanist Association is anti-women.

    Please explain how being against the availability of abortion is anything other than anti-women. Please supply some support for this conclusion.

    Please go back and address the previous points you have ignored before jumping into a new point.


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    #9045
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,070 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Humanism is pro women but what this group espouses isn't humanist. It's a sop to moral relativism.




    You might be more specific and provide details.


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    #9046
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    King Mob wrote: »
    Please explain, using evidence and examples, how the Humanist Association is anti-women.

    Please explain how being against the availability of abortion is anything other than anti-women. Please supply some support for this conclusion.

    Please go back and address the previous points you have ignored before jumping into a new point.

    I never ignored your points.

    Being feminist means being for everyone. Abortion strips some of rights. You disagree which is fair enough but only because you're othering a marginalized group.


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    #9047
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,132 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Humanism is pro women but what this group espouses isn't humanist. It's a sop to moral relativism.

    The Humanist Association is humanist, so your post makes no sense.


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    #9048
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Calina wrote: »
    Being anti abortion is not being pro women.
    i believe it is, as a fundamental women's right is to be born, to grow and to exist and be part of society on an equal footing. abortion kills unborn women.
    King Mob wrote: »
    Opposing the availability of abortion is inherently anti women.
    You and your friends have show time and time again that you put women's rights far behind things like the right to conscientious objection or the right to trick people into coming to your anti-abortion counseling service.

    In what way is the Humanist Association anti-women? Please also provide evidence for this, as we will not believe your unsupported claims.

    Also, any chance you'll be going back to address the points I made to you and the questions you ignored?

    no women's rights are being put behind anything by us by being anti-AOD. by being anti-AOD we are actually trying to promote women's rights as we believe unborn women have a right not to be killed so they can be born and live to their full potential and be part of society. AOD is only an allowence that can be taken away by a government with no real consiquence if such is needed. whatever about being anti-women, the humanist association are not very humanist given they are okay with unborn human beings being killed for absolutely any reason. i'm very prowd to be against AOD and to be for actual women's rights. suggesting that AOD is a woman's right is in my view an insult to the genuine struggles of women.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #9049
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Humanism is pro women but what this group espouses isn't humanist. It's a sop to moral relativism.

    Utter nonsense. Humanism is ardently pro-choice, as evidenced by the Humanist Association of Ireland joining the Coalition to Repeal the 8th and Humanists UK intervening in a case recently where a mother was being prosecuted for providing abortion pills to her under age daughter.


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    #9050
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    I never ignored your points.
    Cool. Go back and point out where you addressed my previous question.
    Otherwise, answer it now:
    Please provide the scientific basis that lead the Catholic Church to adjust their position on abortion.
    Please provide the support that shows that your interpretation of the Catholic Church's position is accurate.
    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Being feminist means being for everyone. Abortion strips some of rights. You disagree which is fair enough but only because you're othering a marginalized group.
    Again, evidence please.
    Abortion does not strip anyone of rights.

    And even if in some bizarre alternate universe it did, it wouldn't make them anti-women.

    Also, you seem to have ignored my other point. So it's obviously some mistake and not you lying:
    Please explain how being against the availability of abortion is anything other than anti-women. Please supply some support for this conclusion.


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    #9051
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    end of the road wrote: »
    i believe it is, as a fundamental women's right is to be born, to grow and to exist and be part of society on an equal footing. abortion kills unborn women.



    no women's rights are being put behind anything by us by being anti-AOD. by being anti-AOD we are actually trying to promote women's rights as we believe unborn women have a right not to be killed so they can be born and live to their full potential and be part of society. AOD is only an allowence that can be taken away by a government with no real consiquence if such is needed. whatever about being anti-women, the humanist association are not very humanist given they are okay with unborn human beings being killed for absolutely any reason. i'm very prowd to be against AOD and to be for actual women's rights. suggesting that AOD is a woman's right is in my view an insult to the genuine struggles of women.

    Still waiting on your alternative to 12 weeks for victims of rape! Anytime your ready.


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    #9052
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    end of the road wrote: »
    no women's rights...
    End, go back and address the points you've left hanging before butting into points not made to you.

    Please show something to support your claim that the majority of people in Ireland are not in favour of the availability of abortion.

    Alternatively, you can admit you cannot support your claim.

    Otherwise, I see no reason to address your post.


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    #9053
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,132 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    end of the road wrote: »
    i believe it is, as a fundamental women's right is to be born, to grow and to exist and be part of society on an equal footing. abortion kills unborn women.

    There is no right to be born. An embryo is not a woman.


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    #9054
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,070 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    I never ignored your points.

    Being feminist means being for everyone. Abortion strips some of rights. You disagree which is fair enough but only because you're othering a marginalized group.




    Ahh, the usual nonsense.


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    #9055
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    end of the road wrote: »
    i believe it is, as a fundamental women's right is to be born, to grow and to exist and be part of society on an equal footing. abortion kills unborn women.



    no women's rights are being put behind anything by us by being anti-AOD. by being anti-AOD we are actually trying to promote women's rights as we believe unborn women have a right not to be killed so they can be born and live to their full potential and be part of society. AOD is only an allowence that can be taken away by a government with no real consiquence if such is needed. whatever about being anti-women, the humanist association are not very humanist given they are okay with unborn human beings being killed for absolutely any reason. i'm very prowd to be against AOD and to be for actual women's rights. suggesting that AOD is a woman's right is in my view an insult to the genuine struggles of women.


    Really scraping the barrel now with this reasoning, it's pure desperate


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    #9056
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Interesting observation I’ve made. When the SSM victory happened there were a couple of weeks of sporadic continuing argument on here and other SM but basically what happened in the main is that the pro SSM groups were satisfied with the victory, enjoyed celebrating and moved on with their lives ignoring and leaving the anti SSMs to mutter and gripe amongst themselves for a while, but in reality the conversation was over forever and it’s rarely mentioned anymore.
    8 months after the abortion referendum the row rages not just unabated but in some cases with further and added nastiness and mudslinging on both sides. Why’s this then?


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    #9057
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Interesting observation I’ve made. When the SSM victory happened there were a couple of weeks of sporadic continuing argument on here and other SM but basically what happened in the main is that the pro SSM groups were satisfied with the victory, enjoyed celebrating and moved on with their lives ignoring and leaving the anti SSMs to mutter and gripe amongst themselves for a while, but in reality the conversation was over forever and it’s rarely mentioned anymore.
    8 months after the abortion referendum the row rages not just unabated but in some cases with further and added nastiness and mudslinging on both sides. Why’s this then?

    I'd say it's due to lack of clarity about what repealing the 8th actually meant. With SSM it was very simple but with abortion, we've had months of debate about what abortion here would entail. I do remember when gay couples actually started happening a bit of grumbling for a week or two, now I'd imagine that this will continue as long as we have abortion but I don't see protests being a long term thing. There is also potential to expand abortion here which wasn't the case with ssm, that has to be a factor.


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    #9058
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,209 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Interesting observation I’ve made. When the SSM victory happened there were a couple of weeks of sporadic continuing argument on here and other SM but basically what happened in the main is that the pro SSM groups were satisfied with the victory, enjoyed celebrating and moved on with their lives ignoring and leaving the anti SSMs to mutter and gripe amongst themselves for a while, but in reality the conversation was over forever and it’s rarely mentioned anymore.
    8 months after the abortion referendum the row rages not just unabated but in some cases with further and added nastiness and mudslinging on both sides. Why’s this then?

    The mudslinging only comes from the anti-choice side, and they're being egged on by the RCC and the US anti-abortion industry. No surprises, this will keep on forever, the anti-women groups are relentless.


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    #9059
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    uptherebels wrote: »
    Still waiting on your alternative to 12 weeks for victims of rape! Anytime your ready.
    i don't believe rape is a good enough reason for abortion.
    Pherekydes wrote: »
    There is no right to be born. An embryo is not a woman.

    irrelevant, it will either be a man or woman which is good enough.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #9060
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Really scraping the barrel now with this reasoning, it's pure desperate
    not at all. it's those in favour of AOD who have to do that as far as i'm concerned as they can't put forward any actual arguments to support unborn babies being killed.

    Igotadose wrote: »
    The mudslinging only comes from the anti-choice side, and they're being egged on by the RCC and the US anti-abortion industry. No surprises, this will keep on forever, the anti-women groups are relentless.
    the trying to make out that pro-choice are all innocent little flowers has already been saw through. why you keep trying to engage in that tactic is a mystery. there were elements on both sides engaging in insults.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #9061
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'd say it's due to lack of clarity about what repealing the 8th actually meant. With SSM it was very simple but with abortion, we've had months of debate about what abortion here would entail. I do remember when gay couples actually started happening a bit of grumbling for a week or two, now I'd imagine that this will continue as long as we have abortion but I don't see protests being a long term thing. There is also potential to expand abortion here which wasn't the case with ssm, that has to be a factor.

    Nail on the head here I think. After all, we've only had the abortion service 'for a week or two' and it's still experiencing teething troubles. Once the service beds in and is seen to be working smoothly, I reckon nearly all the controversy will die away.


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