General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

Podge_irl · 23-11-2018 10:42am

Edward M wrote: »

It'd put up six houses of the standard built for the travellers in Tipperary
But joking aside, it's a huge amount just on PR.
Remember, most things Govt do is in the media anyway, imagine spending taxpayers money to have a favourable spin put on it!

I would argue criticism from all and sundry gets about 10x the free media coverage that the actual actions get. I think, going back a long time, poor communication has been an issue for lots of governments. There is also no point having programs if people don't know about them.

tobsey · 23-11-2018 12:42pm

Good loser wrote: »

I see the average nurse gets paid €57,000 per annum.

The average guard gets about €55,000.

If they could 'come' 'together' that would be €112,000 per annum.

They could then afford a house in Dublin!

Yes, in their 40s though. That’s getting a bit late to be putting down roots and starting a family.

James Brown · 23-11-2018 3:51pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I would argue criticism from all and sundry gets about 10x the free media coverage that the actual actions get. I think, going back a long time, poor communication has been an issue for lots of governments. There is also no point having programs if people don't know about them.

We should not confuse communication with PR/spin.
Let's not make the mistake of thinking this sum was on getting the plain unbiased word of what's happening to the people.

James Brown · 23-11-2018 3:54pm

tobsey wrote: »

Yes, in their 40s though. That’s getting a bit late to be putting down roots and starting a family.

In short, it seems the consensus is the hospital trolley scandal is being caused by nurses taking too many holidays and they get paid a lot so housing isn't an issue and Leo can spend spend spend on PR/spin, what of it? Grand so...

blanch152 · 23-11-2018 3:58pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We should not confuse communication with PR/spin.
Let's not make the mistake of thinking this sum was on getting the plain unbiased word of what's happening to the people.

Someone else who didn't read the newspaper report, and only focussed on the headline.

blanch152 wrote: »

The newspaper report gives this quite reasonable explanation for the expenditure:

"“The expenditure referenced relates to a number of major cross-Government public information campaigns that the Department funded centrally during 2018, for example Healthy Ireland, Global Ireland, Project Ireland 2040, the Self Employed Benefits campaign, aimed at ensuring self employed people are aware of the new and existing benefits available to them.

“The majority of this expense was incurred prior to July 2018, before changes were made.

“Public information campaigns in the future will largely be funded by the relevant line Department, as opposed to being funded centrally from this Department.”

Are you arguing the truth of that? It is a factual part of the report, compared to the gibberings of Niall Collins.

Good loser · 24-11-2018 1:40am

Matt Barrett wrote: »

In short, it seems the consensus is the hospital trolley scandal is being caused by nurses taking too many holidays and they get paid a lot so housing isn't an issue and Leo can spend spend spend on PR/spin, what of it? Grand so...

Would be very grand altogether if a whistle blowing nurse turned up!!!

James Brown · 26-11-2018 3:57pm

Good loser wrote: »

Would be very grand altogether if a whistle blowing nurse turned up!!!

They do all the time, but some quarters dismiss their concerns by changing the narrative to suite their political agenda.

28-11-2018 11:54pm

After the BoE forecasts outlining various outcomes from the different Brexit scenarios today I hope Leo will can his ridiculous talk of 5 years of tax cuts and start to build a healthy government financial surplus for the shocks that maybe coming.

blackwhite · 29-11-2018 12:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

After the BoE forecasts outlining various outcomes from the different Brexit scenarios today I hope Leo will can his ridiculous talk of 5 years of tax cuts and start to build a healthy government financial surplus for the shocks that maybe coming.

I don’t think we’ve any political party here with the wit or the liathroidi to do anything as sensible as that.

The electorate has a long history of rewarding those who promise the most “goodies” and who spin the populist lines. Prudent policy gets punished.

Hence we get the politicians and parties that the electorate demands, instead of getting what the country actually needs.

Stephen Donnelly is a prime example. Started out as a rational voice but has slipped more and more into the habits of our populist politicians.

Another example is to look at how long George Lee’s sojourn lasted. He went to the party that talks the best game in terms of “economic responsibility” and found that even they would put electioneering ahead of sensible economics whenever they felt it was what the electorate would reward.

29-11-2018 12:27am

blackwhite wrote: »

I don’t think we’ve any political party here with the wit or the liathroidi to do anything as sensible as that.

The electorate has a long history of rewarding those who promise the most “goodies” and who spin the populist lines. Prudent policy gets punished.

Hence we get the politicians and parties that the electorate demands, instead of getting what the country actually needs.

Stephen Donnelly is a prime example. Started out as a rational voice but has slipped more and more into the habits of our populist politicians.

Another example is to look at how long George Lee’s sojourn lasted. He went to the party that talks the best game in terms of “economic responsibility” and found that even they would put electioneering ahead of sensible economics whenever they felt it was what the electorate would reward.

God forbid if you mentioned things like counter cyclical fiscal policy to them. They would be scrambling around for their dictionaries I suspect......

Podge_irl · 29-11-2018 11:22am

blackwhite wrote: »

I don’t think we’ve any political party here with the wit or the liathroidi to do anything as sensible as that.

It has nothing to do with wit or fortitude. We simply don't allow it by how we vote. No point blaming politicians for enacting the wishes of the electorate.

blackwhite · 29-11-2018 1:06pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

It has nothing to do with wit or fortitude. We simply don't allow it by how we vote. No point blaming politicians for enacting the wishes of the electorate.

Hence the second line of my post.

TBH - if there's anything to be learned from Brexit, Trump, etc - it seems that a large section of public globally is moving towards rejecting anything resembling "expert" opinion, and instead gravitating to the demagogues who tell them what they want to hear, and how everything is going to be great without ever having to take the tough decisions.

blackwhite · 29-11-2018 1:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

God forbid if you mentioned things like counter cyclical fiscal policy to them. They would be scrambling around for their dictionaries I suspect......

I'd be more cynical than that TBH - I'd say most of fully aware of what they *should* be doing, but it's a case of it being easier to retain public support by throwing out goodies, and pandering to the loudest (and usually least rational) voices.

blanch152 · 29-11-2018 2:20pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Hence the second line of my post.

TBH - if there's anything to be learned from Brexit, Trump, etc - it seems that a large section of public globally is moving towards rejecting anything resembling "expert" opinion, and instead gravitating to the demagogues who tell them what they want to hear, and how everything is going to be great without ever having to take the tough decisions.

blackwhite wrote: »

I'd be more cynical than that TBH - I'd say most of fully aware of what they *should* be doing, but it's a case of it being easier to retain public support by throwing out goodies, and pandering to the loudest (and usually least rational) voices.

Absolutely, hence the absolute gems of Constitutional amendments on water and suchlike.

James Brown · 29-11-2018 4:24pm

blackwhite wrote: »

I'd be more cynical than that TBH - I'd say most of fully aware of what they *should* be doing, but it's a case of it being easier to retain public support by throwing out goodies, and pandering to the loudest (and usually least rational) voices.

We have to consider backroom lobbying too. They don't merely pander to populism. I'd say it's a balancing act, get policies enacted to suit their own agenda while throwing a few goodies into the mix. Every government has done that just to varying degrees.

FreudianSlippers · 29-11-2018 4:59pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Hence the second line of my post.

TBH - if there's anything to be learned from Brexit, Trump, etc - it seems that a large section of public globally is moving towards rejecting anything resembling "expert" opinion, and instead gravitating to the demagogues who tell them what they want to hear, and how everything is going to be great without ever having to take the tough decisions.

You can see it on here constantly - the average Joe Soap now has access to more information due to the internet and they have the mistaken belief that "everyone is entitled to their opinion" means that their opinion carries weight in factual discussions. Joe Soap is no longer content to call-in to Joe Duffy... they believe they are entitled to have their opinions weighed with merit.

I'm educated in and work in the Legal/Political/Economic industry - if I had an opinion on plumbing or bricklaying (which I don't) I wouldn't expect someone with vast training and experience in those areas to entertain my opinions on same. Unfortunately, it seems that because some areas, such as my own, are not tangible (or not immediately tangible) that it doesn't work vice versa. A plumber or a bricklayer can literally show me why my opinions are bogus right then and there - a leaky pipe or a ****ty wall - but for "non-tangible" professions, the results are almost never immediate.

I am not trying to suggest that we shut down debate or opinions, but we've entered a very dangerous world where the counterpoint to an expert opinion is a feeling or a worldview.

FreudianSlippers · 29-11-2018 5:01pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We have to consider backroom lobbying too. They don't merely pander to populism. I'd say it's a balancing act, get policies enacted to suit their own agenda while throwing a few goodies into the mix. Every government has done that just to varying degrees.

Lobbying in Ireland is not as powerful as you'd imagine - the parish pump and NIMBY-ism is more powerful in Ireland than the lobbyist.

Chips Lovell · 30-11-2018 10:16am

Mod Note

I've carded one person and deleted their post. Less of the personal attacks please.

James Brown · 06-12-2018 7:34pm

The decent thing to do...

Seanad passes ‘historic’ Bill to ban sale of goods from occupied territories
The Seanad has passed legislation banning the importation or sale of goods or services from settlements condemned by the United Nations and European Union as illegal.

There was sustained applause and a standing ovation by Opposition Senators as the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill was supported without a vote in what has been described by Independent Senator Frances Black who championed the legislation as “historic”.

Ireland is the first EU member state to push such legislation but it has yet to be introduced and passed by the Dáil and even then the Government is likely to refuse to implement it.

The Government was defeated by 28 to 16 in an earlier vote about receiving the Bill for final consideration.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/seanad-passes-historic-bill-to-ban-sale-of-goods-from-occupied-territories-1.3721597

A start anyway.

blanch152 · 06-12-2018 7:41pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The decent thing to do...

A start anyway.

There are a mad collection of people who believe you can do your own set of trade deals without leaving the EU. Even the Brexiteers were sane enough to realise you had to leave to do your own trade deal.

James Brown · 10-12-2018 8:03pm

Nice win for ComReg. More important the practice ceases.

Eir settles ComReg court action on controls for €3m
The action arises from ongoing complaints by eir's rivals and from ComReg that the company was giving favourable treatment to its own retail arm in areas like fault fixing and new connections.

Eir's wholesale division is obliged by law to give equal priority to rivals as it does to its own retail operations.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1210/1016389-eir-comreg-court/

I remember being told I could keep my phone/landline number if I changed from Eircom, (at the time) but it would be a wait because they were in no rush to make it easy.

L1011 · 12-12-2018 4:33pm

So the C&S deal is extended on a day when nobody will notice. Bravo

James Brown · 12-12-2018 4:43pm

L1011 wrote: »

So the C&S deal is extended on a day when nobody will notice. Bravo

While sadly I don't think an election now would change things much this just cements the perception of the FF/FG party IMO. I suppose by 2020 FF might get away with faux outrage at the housing crisis etc. I'm sure there'll be handbags at dawn now and then throughout 2019 for perception purposes.

realdanbreen · 12-12-2018 4:45pm

L1011 wrote: »

So the C&S deal is extended on a day when nobody will notice. Bravo

Great news!
Keep up the good work.

abcabc123123 · 27-12-2018 4:17pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-metrolink-application-unlikely-before-2020-1.3741804

This makes my blood boil. A €100 million tunnel for the residents of Beechwood Avenue. Unbelievable.

BonnieSituation · 27-12-2018 5:31pm

abcabc123123 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-metrolink-application-unlikely-before-2020-1.3741804

This makes my blood boil. A €100 million tunnel for the residents of Beechwood Avenue. Unbelievable.

It's a 100million tunnel as part of a huge infrastructure project that will benefit the whole of the greater Dublin area. The tunnel is essential for segregation of metro and ensuring that maximum throughput on the line is maintained.

But you know that of course.

abcabc123123 · 27-12-2018 5:53pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's a 100million tunnel as part of a huge infrastructure project that will benefit the whole of the greater Dublin area. The tunnel is essential for segregation of metro and ensuring that maximum throughput on the line is maintained.

But you know that of course.

It's a 100 million additional cost that was not required - a pedestrian underpass or overpass would not impact throughput of the line and would keep the neighbourhood connected, at a tiny fraction of the cost. This is €100 million being spent so a couple of wealthy residents won't have noise pollution from passing trains.

BonnieSituation · 27-12-2018 7:56pm

abcabc123123 wrote: »

It's a 100 million additional cost that was not required - a pedestrian underpass or overpass would not impact throughput of the line and would keep the neighbourhood connected, at a tiny fraction of the cost. This is €100 million being spent so a couple of wealthy residents won't have noise pollution from passing trains.

It really isn't. I'm not a fan of the Beechwood cohort and their moaning but this is a great solution and so much better than the tunnel exiting at Charlemont.

I'd suggest you head on over to the transport infrastructure board to inform yourself.

road_high · 27-12-2018 9:58pm

L1011 wrote: »

So the C&S deal is extended on a day when nobody will notice. Bravo

There is no alternative- having an election right now would be extreme madness. The usual chorus of loons in SF and their perpetual oppose everything fellow travellers had the usual script ready but not one of them have an alternative (except anarchy) strategy. Regardless of when we have the next election.
FF will definitely regain much of their losses from SF who are becoming a more ridiculous prospect with each passing week/fake protest. FG will likely consolidate their position. I can’t see much change from the current status quo except perhaps FF swapping places or either FG or FF plus a few small parties and/or independents.

Whatever prospect SF had of making inroads to middle class voters has well and truly evaporated.

James Brown · 28-12-2018 3:59pm

I hope everyone on either side of the aisle had is having a great holiday season.

Leo Varadkar defends ‘vulture funds’ and criticises practices of Irish banks

Mr Varadkar also said that homeowners whose mortgages were sold off to such funds would be “no worse off” than those whose loans were owned by the banks.

The Taoiseach said he disagreed with the use of the term “vulture fund” and criticised the practices of our own banks.

“I’m always reluctant to use the term vulture funds because it is a political term. What we’re talking about here is investment banks, investment funds, finance houses, there are lots of different things and lots of different financial entities there and the term is used, vulture funds.

“But you’ll know from the numbers that they’re often better at write-downs of loans than our own banks.

“Our own banks tend to ‘extend and pretend’ rather than coming to settlements with people.

“Increasingly they’re covered by the same regulations and the same consumer protections as the banks,” he said.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/leo-varadkar-defends-vulture-funds-and-criticises-practices-of-irish-banks-1.3742477

So the man who would be CEO (his words) of Irish society seems to favour vulture funds over banks.
This raises a few questions. The tax payer bailed out the banks, part owned some. We were told this was essential. What ever about ones feelings about banks, most of them pay taxes back to the state coffers and have brick and mortar operations for the most part in Ireland.
It's my understanding that vulture funds operate under favourable rates of taxation?
Then of course, there's the recourse a indebted mortgage holder can approach an Irish Bank and even a politician in an effort to work out a repayment deal meaning the family may get to avoid homelessness.
Saying...

“Our own banks tend to ‘extend and pretend’ rather than coming to settlements with people.

Is Varadkar possibly looking at this too much from a short sighted business perspective? I mean isn't the home owner being able to remain housed more important than a vulture fund making profits it pays little tax on? Has the man who would be CEO lost perspective, giving the benefit of the doubt that he had perspective? Basically, is he about running business or running society? More hotels and customers for rental companies is good for business, the economy and....meanwhile we continue in crises?

Also...

“Increasingly they’re covered by the same regulations and the same consumer protections as the banks,” he said.

Increasingly? So he's defending private entities, many foreign, paying little tax in Ireland with less protections in place over Irish banks the tax payer has an interest in?

Fine Gael is supporting legislation which is being brought forward by the Fianna Fáil finance spokesman, Michael McGrath, to regulate the funds for the first time.

“So, what we’re working on is enacting legislation that Michael McGrath has brought forward, which is to make sure that so-called vulture funds are being regulated,” Mr Varadkar said.

Better years late, years into a housing crisis than never? Has all the inappropriate behaviour already taken place?

My take away is that Varadkar like many of his brethren favours the fortunes of private business over those of the society they profess to represent. The only question is is this intentional and to what degree? It seems social crises won't steer them away from what ever their end game is.

General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

Comments