Strokestown Mod Note in Post #4461

BattleCorp · 18-12-2018 10:25PM

Like I said it’s no excuse for shirking your responsibilities.

The ‘Top’ didn’t force this man to take out loans he couldn’t afford. It was his choice and his alone.

Who said he couldn't afford the loan? Maybe he just didn't bother his hole paying it back.

There was mention of him not making a payment on it for 14 years. I can't verify that so it might not be true.

simongurnick · 18-12-2018 10:25PM

relax carry on wrote: »

Because the loan was taken out years back before his Revenue issues. Looks like KBC have been trying to sort this since 2009.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/roscommon-eviction-kbc-seeking-debt-repayment-since-2009-1.3736042

I suspect they didnt do their due diligence. just like they didn't do their due diligence ahead of this debacle.
At this point, they havent got their money, the asset and it's a PR disaster. Clowns.

simongurnick · 18-12-2018 10:27PM

alias no.9 wrote: »

The owners of the Irish banks, the share holders in the banks, had their holdings wiped out, reduced to zero. The state intervened to stop the entire customer base from being wiped out too. You can argue the merits of that on another thread but it's simply not correct to say nobody was held to account.

Who went to jail?

simongurnick · 18-12-2018 10:28PM

alias no.9 wrote: »

Trackers that are being paid to schedule are not loss making, they cannot be milked to cover other losses but they are not loss making.

Why did banks offer to buy people out of those products?

Allinall · 18-12-2018 10:29PM

simongurnick wrote: »

Who went to jail?

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/bankers-jailed-financial-crisis-ireland-4082033-Jun2018/%3famp=1

alias no.9 · 18-12-2018 10:32PM

simongurnick wrote: »

Who went to jail?

Who in the family in question is going to jail for anything to do with the loan? Someone took a financial risk and lost their financial stake. In the case of the bank shareholders, the shares were rendered worthless, in the case of the farmer, he's lost the collateral he put up against the loan. Anything done to lessen the value of that collateral actually renders the farmer in a worse financial position.

h2005 · 18-12-2018 10:35PM

simongurnick wrote: »

So, that's the banks story. Main reason is they lost their holes on the tracker products and then decided not to pass on any interest rate reductions to the customers...but should we be surprised while lemmings like you lap it up.

Have a read of page 6 here:

https://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/PressPublicationsdoclib3.nsf/vPages/Newsroom~ibec-publishes-latest-economic-outlook-report-12-11-2018/$file/Ibec+Quarterly+Economic+Outlook+Q3+2018.pdf

Yeah I'm the lemming here:rolleyes:

simongurnick · 18-12-2018 10:36PM

Allinall wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/bankers-jailed-financial-crisis-ireland-4082033-Jun2018/%3famp=1

4 people...wow

alias no.9 · 18-12-2018 10:38PM

simongurnick wrote: »

Why did banks offer to buy people out of those products?

Before the ECB stepped in with its bond buying scheme, the banks were for a period of time at the mercy of international capital markets, they were for a while loss making but they are not loss making right now and haven't been for several years. Very few offers were made to buy people out of products, if I were to speculate it was simply a sample of customers to gauge reaction.

simongurnick · 18-12-2018 10:38PM

h2005 wrote: »

Have a read of page 6 here:

https://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/PressPublicationsdoclib3.nsf/vPages/Newsroom~ibec-publishes-latest-economic-outlook-report-12-11-2018/$file/Ibec+Quarterly+Economic+Outlook+Q3+2018.pdf

Yeah I'm the lemming here:rolleyes:

that's related to SME's not individuals

relax carry on · 18-12-2018 10:40PM

simongurnick wrote: »

I suspect they didnt do their due diligence. just like they didn't do their due diligence ahead of this debacle.
At this point, they havent got their money, the asset and it's a PR disaster. Clowns.

You suspect they didn't and I suspect they did. Woohoo, random statements are fun.

Here's why I suspect they did. If the borrower wanted to press the due diligence angle I'm sure his solicitor would have run with it anytime from 2009 to August 2018.

From the Irish Times article.

"High Court records show that KBC lodged proceedings against Michael Anthony McGann in July 2009 and that a possession order was awarded in the case in 2013. The size of the debt is not known but is understood to be in excess of €300,000.

It appears the 2013 possession order was not acted on. It is understood that attempts by the bank to negotiate a solution were unsuccessful. New affidavits were filed in the case in subsequent years. A renewal of the possession order was issued in June 2017. Mr McGann, who was legally represented, swore a new affidavit the following month, and a possession order was issued in August of this year.

Security men
It is understood Mr McGann’s home was visited by a representative of the county sheriff’s office in September and he advised that he would have to leave the property. On December 9th, the house was called on again and the occupants told that possession would be taken of the house two days later.

The court had told the bank it could take possession of the house at 1pm on December 11th and on that date papers to that effect were served by an agent of the sheriff. Security men who attended were engaged by the bank."

simongurnick · 18-12-2018 10:42PM

alias no.9 wrote: »

Before the ECB stepped in with its bond buying scheme, the banks were for a period of time at the mercy of international capital markets, they were for a while loss making but they are not loss making right now and haven't been for several years. Very few offers were made to buy people out of products, if I were to speculate it was simply a sample of customers to gauge reaction.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/apr/14/irelands-dirty-little-secret-tracker-mortgages

Lefty Bicek · 18-12-2018 10:42PM

alias no.9 wrote: »

Trackers that are being paid to schedule are not loss making, they cannot be milked to cover other losses but they are not loss making.

Worth remembering that the tracker mortgage scandal however, led to provisions (funds set aide to pay for future losses) of a combined figure of E900m !

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0118/934146-tracker-mortgage-update/

simongurnick · 18-12-2018 10:46PM

relax carry on wrote: »

You suspect they didn't and I suspect they did. Woohoo, random statements are fun.

Here's why I suspect they did. If the borrower wanted to press the due diligence angle I'm sure his solicitor would have run with it anytime from 2009 to August 2018.

From the Irish Times article.

"High Court records show that KBC lodged proceedings against Michael Anthony McGann in July 2009 and that a possession order was awarded in the case in 2013. The size of the debt is not known but is understood to be in excess of €300,000.

It appears the 2013 possession order was not acted on. It is understood that attempts by the bank to negotiate a solution were unsuccessful. New affidavits were filed in the case in subsequent years. A renewal of the possession order was issued in June 2017. Mr McGann, who was legally represented, swore a new affidavit the following month, and a possession order was issued in August of this year.

Security men
It is understood Mr McGann’s home was visited by a representative of the county sheriff’s office in September and he advised that he would have to leave the property. On December 9th, the house was called on again and the occupants told that possession would be taken of the house two days later.

The court had told the bank it could take possession of the house at 1pm on December 11th and on that date papers to that effect were served by an agent of the sheriff. Security men who attended were engaged by the bank."

I'm not talking about it as defence for the borrower. I'm talking about from the standpoint that KBC is a poorly run bank that does not effectivelly manage its loan portfolio,

Danzy · 18-12-2018 10:46PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Too late. The bank own the property now. There'll be no repayment plan.

They won't be able to sell it though so that is a different problem for them.

Drifter50 · 18-12-2018 10:48PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Too late. The bank own the property now. There'll be no repayment plan.

Bank may own the property now but it is never going to be sold in the future. This fiasco will stay with this property forever and no-one will buy it and if anyone does try to buy it, see what happens.

Seriously, there is extraordinary naievety being shown in some of the posts here. At the end of the day, the history of land being stolen, taken etc by British and foreign landlords goes away back in the west of Ireland.

If it was`nt so serious an issue, the stuff flying about on the Whats App trails down here show what the local people really think although its thinly veiled behind a "jokey" sort of description. " Hard border west of the Shannon from Athlone to Carrick" and " LVF out of Roscommon " etc etc

Poor decision making by KBC tho. It was clearly a non Irish approach to an Irish problem caused the issue. No-one thinking clearly and locally would employ this Craigavon bunch to collect a debt in the most Republican area of Leitrim / Roscommon. You only need to scratch the surface to see the underlying issues here and when you mix a bank into it, you might as well throw petrol on a chemical bonfire

I've Motor Neuron Disease, AMA · 18-12-2018 10:49PM

gandalf wrote: »

TBH you're right I am worried about the implications for those that are in genuine distress. These guys aren't and the sort of hysterics that has occurred over this will push the banks to dump all their problem loans to vulture funds and then those who have genuine reasons for their difficulties will be fecked.

Re processions of property where the debtors have no intention of servicing the debt at all should be streamlined and rather than dragging on for years it should take a year max. It was probably obvious early on that the chancer in Strokestown was gaming the system. Then there should be obligations put in place so banks have to help those with genuine reasons for not being able to meet their payments but who are engaging with the bank to find a solution. They also need to separate the residence from the rest of the farm so in the worst case scenario the farm is lost but the residence is retained.

I've followed this thread with great interest.

I do not really have any sympathy for this man as he deliberately deceived and defrauded the taxpayer. He could pay but chose not to.

I don't have much time for banks either as I found myself in genuine trouble before, took out a mortgage and paid for a number of years, overpaid by thousands at one stage but fell into difficulty. I became ill but just didn't know how ill i was. All offers to the bank were refused, the end result being there's an empty house sitting idle a few years now.

Banks don't help themselves either.

Allinall · 18-12-2018 10:50PM

simongurnick wrote: »

I'm not talking about it as defence for the borrower. I'm talking about from the standpoint that KBC is a poorly run bank that does not effectivelly manage its loan portfolio,

I think you’ll find they’re a very well run bank.

Check out their financial statements.

alias no.9 · 18-12-2018 10:50PM

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Worth remembering that the tracker mortgage scandal however, led to provisions (funds set aide to pay for future losses) of a combined figure of E900m !

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0118/934146-tracker-mortgage-update/

They may become loss making again in the future when the ECB bond buying program ends but they are not loss making right now.

Anyhow, even if the banks cost of borrowing exceeds the nominal rate on a tracker, the loss is limited to the margin between the rates when the loan is being repaid to schedule.

On the other hand, where a loan is delinquent, it doesn't matter what the rate is, tracker or subprime, there is a total loss. Delinquent loans, regardless of rates are where the banks lost their shirts, not trackers being paid to schedule.

Naos · 18-12-2018 10:51PM

Danzy wrote: »

They won't be able to sell it though so that is a different problem for them.

Sure you just make up things as you go along anyway.

fryup · 18-12-2018 10:53PM

Feisar wrote: »

Is fap fest like Octoberfest except with fapping? If so, count me in!

well we are talking about Strokestown

simongurnick · 18-12-2018 10:54PM

Allinall wrote: »

I think you’ll find they’re a very well run bank.

Check out their financial statements.

they won't look good for long if they continue to carry on like this. They've already alienated half the country alone.

relax carry on · 18-12-2018 10:56PM

simongurnick wrote: »

I'm not talking about it as defence for the borrower. I'm talking about from the standpoint that KBC is a poorly run bank that does not effectivelly manage its loan portfolio,

Ok to to hone in on the actual case itself and leaving aside the eviction action carried out by the security firm which seems to have become mired in emotional opinions; do you accept that the process followed from 2009 to August 2018 allowed the borrower ever chance to deal with his financial responsibilities?
I believe that if he had engaged in a meaningful manner including possibly selling some of his assets to meet his debts he may not have found himself in the situation he did. Instead he seems to have compounded his problems given what we know of his issues with Revenue.

Danzy · 18-12-2018 10:58PM

Naos wrote: »

Sure you just make up things as you go along anyway.

Ha. Honestly who do you think will buy this?

The bank messed this up in every way possible.

Allinall · 18-12-2018 11:01PM

simongurnick wrote: »

they won't look good for long if they continue to carry on like this. They've already alienated half the country alone.

Half the country eh?

Don’t think do.

Danzy · 18-12-2018 11:03PM

relax carry on wrote: »

Ok to to hone in on the actual case itself and leaving aside the eviction action carried out by the security firm which seems to have become mired in emotional opinions; do you accept that the process followed from 2009 to August 2018 allowed the borrower ever chance to deal with his financial responsibilities?
I believe that if he had engaged in a meaningful manner including possibly selling some of his assets to meet his debts he may not have found himself in the situation he did. Instead he seems to have compounded his problems given what we know of his issues with Revenue.

That seems a reasonable supposition. It may be wrong to a degree, who knows but in this case more right than wrong.

I have seen cases where people were paying debt back in time and at an impressive rate who hedge funds tried to close on. The land being worth potentially more for development than the loan for farming.

Fair dues to KBC for turning this into such a disaster for themselves.

pablo128 · 18-12-2018 11:07PM

Danzy wrote: »

Ha. Honestly who do you think will buy this?

The bank messed this up in every way possible.

What would happen if someone dared to buy this farm? Could you give me a few examples?

Naos · 18-12-2018 11:09PM

Danzy wrote: »

Ha. Honestly who do you think will buy this?

The bank messed this up in every way possible.

Well you do. You said KBC should be locked up for who they are hiring. Now you are saying the bank messed this up.

Who did KBC hire exactly?

How did KBC mess this up?

Where is the personal responsibility from the tax-dodging farmer?

martingriff · 18-12-2018 11:10PM

simongurnick wrote: »

they won't look good for long if they continue to carry on like this. They've already alienated half the country alone.

I say your figures are a bit off there. A lot of people will have sympathy for this case when someone loses a home but a lot will be lost due to the morans last weekend.

Spanish Eyes · 18-12-2018 11:10PM

If this happened in a city no one would give a sh!t really.

But in a rural community it is different. That is not to say that some in that community are not impressed with these defaulters either. But it may be an anti establishment thing going on or something.

Either way, there are a good number of people from all walks of life that have lived mortgage/repayment free for many years now, and have lived in the properties that they held up as security.

Many, many others worked their socks off to keep up their repayments. I know which cohort I admire anyway.

Strokestown **Mod Note in Post #4461**

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Strokestown Mod Note in Post #4461