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https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules

Shane Ross' new speeding penalties

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24567…20

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    #32
    BronsonTB
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭BronsonTB


    Why not improve enforcement of existing laws first!
    (And increase the speed limits on some roads before penalising the motorist!)

    Until they change from the 'speed only' concentration & each driver actually becomes responsible (for there vehicle)
    Zero respect for the RSA
    Zero respect for the Garda
    Zero respect for the Councils
    Zero respect for the Politicians
    Zero respect for ignorant drivers that ignore the existing laws causing Shane Ross to propose such new measures

    Everyone has a part to play but complete complacency is commonplace by everyone.

    www.sligowhiplash.com - 3rd & 4th Aug '24 (Confirmed!)



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    #33
    Melodeon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭Melodeon


    The simplistic 10Km/h over, 20Km/h over, etc, increments are disproportionate in my opinion.
    50Km/h in a 40Km/h zone is a more egregious transgression than 130Km/h in a 120Km/h zone, again in my opinion.

    A percentage based scale would be more acceptable, I think: 10% over, 20% over, etc, perhaps.


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    #34
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,425 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    Is dangerous speeding* really that bad of an epidemic in this country?

    Are most speed related fatalities not on boreens, or at 4am, or single vehicle drivers?

    More emphasis on drink driving and driving education is what is needed. Slow oblivious drivers are more dangerous!

    *I'm defining dangerous speeding at either significantly over the speed limit or "over the limit" in poor conditions


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    #35
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,309 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Ridiculous idea. I'm in London these days and the UK limits and new fines were added last year. They are based on percentages. IE 30mph in a 20 mph zone is much more serious than 80mph in a 70mph zone. Bigger fine and more points. Why can't we do it like this if we have to do it?

    5 penalty points for 130km/h on an empty dry motorway is insane!


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    #36
    Tzardine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    V8 Interceptor wrote: »
    Because the Swiss do something ludicrous doesn't mean we should follow them.

    How about the way the Germans let you drive as fast as you like on some of their roads?

    Is is ludicrous though? They have half the fatalities per year than we do and are actually the second lowest in the world.

    Isn't that the whole point at the end of the day when it comes to road safety?


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    #37
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    seamus wrote: »
    Any changes should be harsh tbh. We need a good dose of cop on in this country. Driving is a privilege, not a right. A privilege that should be hard to earn and easy to lose. Getting caught speeding once in 3 years is a stupid mistake. Twice is being sloppy. Three times means you're a danger. Realistically the 3rd strike should come with a ban.

    It's very easy not to speed. We all know that. The only reason we whinge about these penalties is because we want to break the limits from time to time. How about we just...don't?

    These will be significantly softened anyway, if they even get further than cabinet.

    How about we tackle the problems which are actually causing deaths on our roads (unlike driving in excess of the speed limit, which is the primary cause of only ~5% of fatal crashes)? Say proper drink driving (by which I mean the huge numbers driving at multiples of the limit in rural areas every weekend, rather then the 'drop the limit to 50, and bag a few people the next day' PR stunts), and the seeming legions of banned and disqualified drivers driving around with an empty windscreen? Nah, that stuff is hard to tackle - let's go for another PR press release instead!


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    #38
    happyoutscan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,968 ✭✭✭happyoutscan


    He's working for Revenue obviously.


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    #39
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    So Ross is to bring his speeding penalty changes to cabinet today

    From RTE :



    Let's forego the usual "speed kills" and "don't speed, don't get caught" stuff shall we?

    Personally I think those changes are very harsh, especially for motorway drivers where 10-20 km/h over is not at all the same as in an urban area. This doesn't seem to have been factored in, and of course even the minimum penalty is higher than it is already which given how long the points stay on your license could see many off the road very quickly.

    What say ye? Proportionate or overkill?

    it should be percentage based


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    #40
    seamie78
    Registered Users Posts: 900 ✭✭✭seamie78


    so two speeding offences in 3 years and your off the road, I know of people who got caught twice in the same spot on the same day by a hidden speed trap. And I am not talking excessive speed


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    #41
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    seamie78 wrote: »
    so two speeding offences in 3 years and your off the road, I know of people who got caught twice in the same spot on the same day by a hidden speed trap. And I am not talking excessive speed

    In Australia you can be off the road in a single weekend - they double the penalty points on bank holiday weekends.


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    #42
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    How about we tackle the problems which are actually causing deaths on our roads (unlike driving in excess of the speed limit, which is the primary cause of only ~5% of fatal crashes)? Say proper drink driving (by which I mean the huge numbers driving at multiples of the limit in rural areas every weekend, rather then the 'drop the limit to 50, and bag a few people the next day' PR stunts), and the seeming legions of banned and disqualified drivers driving around with an empty windscreen? Nah, that stuff is hard to tackle - let's go for another PR press release instead!
    I think it's fair to say that an approach of only going after the "bad" things is what we operated for many years, and it doesn't really work that well. Mainly because people realise that by staying below the bar of acceptability, they can get away with poor driving.

    Road safety needs to be taken as a whole. Overall hygiene is more important than focussing all your resources on the problem areas.

    Not least because the people who drink-drive, the people who have no insurance and the people who break the speed limits, will all have significant overlaps. People who break the more serious laws, habitually break the less serious ones.

    So if you focus on less serious issues, like speeding, you will by default also catch those who engage in more serious behaviour. There is nobody on the road who drinks their head off, gets in the car, but never, ever breaks the speed limit.

    There is also the amplifying effect - if more conscientious drivers are paying more attention to adhering to the "small" issues, then the drivers who break them habitually will stick out like a sore thumb. If everyone is ignoring lights and breaking speed limits by 10km/h, then the actual dangerous drivers are that little bit less obvious and harder to catch.


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    #43
    MTBD
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭MTBD


    Tzardine wrote: »
    Is is ludicrous though? They have half the fatalities per year than we do and are actually the second lowest in the world.

    Isn't that the whole point at the end of the day when it comes to road safety?

    And is there any evidence whatsoever that their safety record is linked to income related fines?

    They also have some of the most flawless roads in the world. Have you ever driven on a Swiss road? If you can find a pothole there, please take a picture and put it on the internet. And they also have one of the highest income rates of all countries meaning that they drive newer and safer cars.

    Causation and correlation are not the same thing.


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    #44
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    seamus wrote: »
    I guess it would make people think about it more seriously. Bit harsh though. A bit of linking of databases would solve a lot of problems. ANPR scans the number plate, details of insurance & tax come up, as well as the registered owner's driving licence and photo.

    So at least if the person who has forgotten their licence is also the owner, the Gardai can confirm on the spot.

    How do they know the person driving the car is the owner unless the driver has a licence? It could be anybody.


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    #45
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    This thread will get hysterical before long. It couldn't be easier to avoid getting fines and points, those that exist now or which will in the future. It's a bold move to raise the possibility of introducing them, and should cop a few people on.


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    #46
    Andrewf20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,187 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    Sounds excessive. Enforcing harsh limits like this when conditions are good (clear, dry day with low traffic levels) is not a efficient way to making safer roads.

    This country also has a reputation for having speed limits on certain roads that seem to defy reason, meaning that if you miss the speed limit sign your intuition of what the limit is could see you get points when you least expect it. 50km/h on parts of the n81? (How is this the same as a housing estate?). Dunboyne bypass is 60km/h despite nothing of any danger on it. 30km/h limits on n3/4/7 - m50 links are another example. It would create a world where people are constantly checking their speedometer rather than spending more time looking at the road if paranoia about points sets in.

    It really bugs me how digital limits are created for an analog world. Is 145km/h on an empty, dry motorway really more dangerous than 120km/h in heavy motorway traffic in the rain.


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    #47
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Irish road traffic fatalities are also very low by international standards.

    I think I would weight those penalties differently.

    1. Urban speed limits needs to be adhered to. Doing more than 10kmh above a 50 should carry a far heavier penalty than doing a 10km above 120 kmh on a motorway.

    2. Link it to road type. I would also argue that on single carriage way roads there's a far greater need to stick to the speed limit. There are plenty of so called National Roads here with N designations that can't even handle 80kmh in some stretches.


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    #48
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    How do they know the person driving the car is the owner unless the driver has a licence? It could be anybody.
    Simple sanity check, that's all. ANPR pops up the details of the car, including the licence of the registered owner (if they have one).

    It means that if you do forget your licence while driving your own car, then the Gardai don't have to waste their time and your time, seizing the vehicle until you produce a licence. They can see off-the-bat that you have one.

    You could also provide the means for people to voluntarily link their licence to a vehicle (e.g. your spouse's car), so ANPR can pull up licence details of anyone who normally drives it.

    99% of the "no licence on me" situations are probably perfectly innocent. So while in theory I fully agree with lifting and seizing for no tax, insurance or licence, in practice we should minimise the volume of false positives. Laws which are hard to enforce are less likely to get enforced. Seizing a vehicle is slow and annoying, so we should ensure Gardai only have to do it when it's necessary.


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    #49
    highdef
    Registered Users Posts: 6,140 ✭✭✭highdef


    seamie78 wrote: »
    so two speeding offences in 3 years and your off the road, I know of people who got caught twice in the same spot on the same day by a hidden speed trap. And I am not talking excessive speed
    I've never heard of a hidden speed trap before although I can't say they don't exist as it's possible I just haven't seen them!

    Having said that, the people you know who were caught twice in one day must need their eyes checked or something. I've been driving over 18 years and am yet to get my first ticket of any kind.


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    #50
    seamie78
    Registered Users Posts: 900 ✭✭✭seamie78


    highdef wrote: »
    I've never heard of a hidden speed trap before although I can't say they don't exist as it's possible I just haven't seen them!

    Having said that, the people you know who were caught quite twice in one day must need their eyes checked out something. I've been driving over 18 years and am yet to get my first ticket of any kind.

    I myself have only had one speeding offence in 16 years driving, however I do think these new rules are excessive. I feel the present system works well in relation to speed


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    #51
    Micky 32
    Registered Users Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭Micky 32


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    How about we tackle the problems which are actually causing deaths on our roads (unlike driving in excess of the speed limit, which is the primary cause of only ~5% of fatal crashes)? Say proper drink driving (by which I mean the huge numbers driving at multiples of the limit in rural areas every weekend, rather then the 'drop the limit to 50, and bag a few people the next day' PR stunts), and the seeming legions of banned and disqualified drivers driving around with an empty windscreen? Nah, that stuff is hard to tackle - let's go for another PR press release instead!


    Aye the mentality of good old Ireland. If people researched they'll see that excessive speed isn't the biggest cause of road deaths on irish roads.


    Head on collisions, lack of attention, bad roads, inexperience , mobile phones, drinking , people on the wrong side of the road over white lines etc etc..


    I was involved in a head on collision once. A yank on the wrong side of the road on a bend. We were both doing 45mph in a 50mph zone ( it was 1998). Both cars were absolutely annihalated with the other driver with bad breakages, shoulder etc. All you could hear was the auld ones on the side of the road that had stopped at the scene " God they must have being going an awful merciful speed" :rolleyes:


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    #52
    highdef
    Registered Users Posts: 6,140 ✭✭✭highdef


    I agree that a percentage based system would be most suitable. 10% might seem a bit low to many but don't forget that would be 10% over the actual speed, not what your Speedo says. Your speedo could be reading 140 on the motorway but it's quite likely that you're still doing less than 10% over the 120 limit.

    Strict enforcement of the 50 should be enforced as these areas are must likely to have pedestrians about the place.


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    #53
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Micky 32 wrote: »
    Aye the mentality of good old Ireland. If people researched they'll see that excessive speed isn't the biggest cause of road deaths on irish roads.


    Head on collisions, lack of attention, bad roads, inexperience , mobile phones, drinking , people on the wrong side of the road over white lines etc etc..


    I was involved in a head on collision once. A yank on the wrong side of the road on a bend. We were both doing 45mph in a 50mph zone ( it was 1998). Both cars were absolutely annihalated with the other driver with bad breakages, shoulder etc. All you could hear was the auld ones on the side of the road that had stopped at the scene " God they must have being going an awful merciful speed" :rolleyes:

    Great story and all that, but that doesn't mean speeding doesn't need to be tackled.


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    #54
    Casati
    Registered Users Posts: 3,013 ✭✭✭Casati


    These punitive points will see me off he road and hundreds of thousands of others - but that might be real intention - ie to eliminate road congestion by banning huge numbers of drivers


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    #55
    Micky 32
    Registered Users Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭Micky 32


    Hurrache wrote: »
    Great story and all that, but that doesn't mean speeding doesn't need to be tackled.


    Yes as long as it's not treated as the main cause.;)


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    #56
    lertsnim
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭lertsnim


    I'd hope that the TD's who bother their holes to turn up for this challenge him on the stupidity of it. The seriousness of 10km/h over on a motorway is nothing close to that of 10 km/h over in a housing estate.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Absolutely idiotic, Ross is ruining the roads for us with this nonsense, draconian DD laws recently introduced and many other stupid suggestions etc.

    The rules are just fine as they are, in fact they are already too harsh considering how low speed limits are compared to the ability of modern cars to handle much higher speeds than when limits were introduced.

    The sooner Ross is got rid of the better. Speeding is also not a big cause of crashes or deaths and its just an easy target which makes these suggestions even more idiotic.


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    #58
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Slattsy wrote: »
    I think a tough stance on excessive speed would be warranted, and will certainly make people think twice about speeding.
    Whether that's a bigger fine, additional penalty points, or a charge on dangerous driving, it's certainly one to be debated openly and fairly.
    Agreed.
    However the penalties listed for lesser speeds is ridiculous.
    Agreed. They're far too low. Don't forget you're driving a lethal weapon and damage done increases as the square of speed so 40 in a 30 will do 1.8 times the damage. 50 in a 30 will do 2.8 times the damage.


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    #59
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Mooooo wrote: »
    What's the margin of error in the accuracy of Speedometers?
    +10/-0% by law

    Your speedo will always read faster than your road speed.


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    #60
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    Casati wrote: »
    These punitive points will see me off he road and hundreds of thousands of others - but that might be real intention - ie to eliminate road congestion by banning huge numbers of drivers

    I agree with criticism of parts of the idea but in all fairness it's not as if you're being forced to travel over the speed limit.


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    #61
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Id be ok with this if we made the M1, M3, N/M4 , N/M7 and N11 the 140kmh roads they should be and abolished the 30km limits in dublin that nobody sticks to.

    Shane is just a car nazi , determined to make motoring as painful as possible. We have far too many limits that are incorrectly low for this to be fair


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