I think the company is trying to make me quit my job

kitkat2018 · 02-12-2018 4:46pm #1

Hi,

I am middle aged and I had a career change into software engineering and went for the interview process in a large cooperation. They made me an offer and I accepted it.

1 year later I have been struggling to keep up with the other developers. Basically, I don't have the work experience for this job and I find it very difficult. Normally, I have to ask members of my team to help me get things done when I get stuck. And I don't like asking them as it makes me feel useless and it slows them down. But if I don't ask, then I can't get my work done. Normally I can get to 70 - 80% before I ask.

Over the last 18 months I have had different managers and my current manager have given subtle hints that I am under performing in our one-to-one weekly meetings. Sometime asking me technical questions that they know I can't answer and make me feel small. And now have given me extra workload on a project that is very complicated and above my skill set. That I don't know how to start.

This has made me feel ill with the dread of going to work. Getting stuck on complicated problems. I have learnt a lot from this job and I can take those skills to another company that I am more qualified for.

But now I am facing more questions in meetings where I can't answer their questions and I think this is just their way of putting more and more pressure to force me to quit as I look useless. But I don't want to quit as I would walk away with nothing, but if they make me redundant so I can get my compensation package from them.

I have done nothing wrong apart from being under qualified for this position as I don't have the work experience for it. I work hard and trying to grow with the company but its a very slow process. I would rather stay but with all this pressure its making me dread going to work as somehow I feel I am being bullied. At the end of the day I would rather they make me redundant at least I would get something out of them. But I think they are trying avoid that. Even if I quit I would still have to give 4 weeks notice and still expected to complete my work in that time, so I think it better to just keep on until they let me go.

Any advice on this?

Wanderer2010 · 02-12-2018 5:43pm

Well, first off forget about redundancy- you have to be there at least two years for that and no company is going to pay you off if they feel you aren't a fit. They may very well be hoping you might move on as they don't want to admit they took on someone who didn't have 100% of the skills.

On the other hand it sounds like you are a very good employee doing your best to meet them halfway. You have two options here- hold a meeting with your manager and tell him or her that you are struggling a bit to reach all your goals and can you get extra training, either a few hours a week with someone very experienced or in house training? That's shows you are trying to be proactive to solve the problem. If that doesn't work and they give you the brush up you should look around for something else and put this down to a bad experience. Its not worth being stressed over every day. Good luck!

OMM 0000 · 02-12-2018 5:46pm

I'm sorry, but I sort of agree with your managers.

As a programmer you are supposed to be able to research solutions yourself. Especially after 18 months experience. That means looking at previous stackoverflow answers, or asking questions on stackoverflow. A programmer who cannot do this is bad.

I manage a team of software developers.

Do you think you have an aptitude for programming? Could QA be a better role for you? QA automation is a very good job.

Xterminator · 03-12-2018 3:50pm

Hi Op

People are not made redundant roles are.

to be made redundant your work would have to decide they could manage with one less software developer than they currently have, and would be restricted from hiring a replacement for some time.

That doesn't really fit with your situation.

What training have you requested/ been given on the last 18 months? If you have nt formally requested training, do so straight away. Next time your qualifications are questioned, you can reply, yes im still waiting on that course. So it may help upskill you, but also would help you cope with work scenarios by indicating you are aware of shortcomings and willing to tackle.

Have you been doing night classes/distance learning to help with the new unfamiliar role? If not why? Whats holding you back?

_Brian · 03-12-2018 4:04pm

Have you called straight out that while your qualified that your finding your lack of experience is holding you back ??

You need to have this conversation straight 1:1 with your manager. Maybe your colleagues are giving you a dig out but moaning to the manager about having to give up their time.

Either way, have it out on the open. Ask for further training, perhaps mentoring from someone experienced.

Don’t just try to muddle on until it’s too late and your facing discipline for lack of performance as a project fails.

I would tend to try and sort things in your current job rather than looking to jump ship and start again.

georgewickstaff · 03-12-2018 4:05pm

1. Have a good look at your contract. It should at the very least outline the role and basic requirements that you were hired for. You obviously satisfied the people interviewing you at the time. You must also have successfully completed your probation period.

2. So what has happened since then? If the role has changed have you had any training? If not why not?

3. Check your company website for their dignity in the workplace policy. If your line managers are repeatedly setting you impossible tasks that may be considered a form of bullying. If your line managers are denying you training opportunities when you need them, that may also be a form of bullying. If your line managers are treating you less favourably then other members of staff you've guessed it, that could also be considered bullying. If your line managers are undermining you, see above..

You need to speak to someone and outline your concerns and the effect it is having on you. Trying to force you out the door is not an acceptable way for a company to conduct themselves despite what some of the usual IBEC cheerleading dullards on here who will be along shortly will tell you.

Berserker · 04-12-2018 5:02pm

kitkat2018 wrote: »

Over the last 18 months I have had different managers and my current manager have given subtle hints that I am under performing in our one-to-one weekly meetings. Sometime asking me technical questions that they know I can't answer and make me feel small. And now have given me extra workload on a project that is very complicated and above my skill set. That I don't know how to start.

I find it odd that you'd be asked technical questions in a one-to-one meeting. You should be driving those meetings.

Also, as a developer with less that two years experience, I'd question why they are giving you complete ownership on a complicated project. Failure to deliver the project on time would reflect badly on them, far worse than you. Based on my experience in the sector, well over ten years, I can tell you that their manager would question why they made you, a junior member of staff, responsible for a complex project. It shows poor judgement on their part.

Were any issues raised during your last year end or quarterly review?

stinkbomb · 05-12-2018 5:55pm

kitkat2018 wrote: »

I have done nothing wrong apart from being under qualified for this position as I don't have the work experience for it. I work hard and trying to grow with the company but its a very slow process. I would rather stay but with all this pressure its making me dread going to work as somehow I feel I am being bullied. At the end of the day I would rather they make me redundant at least I would get something out of them. But I think they are trying avoid that. Even if I quit I would still have to give 4 weeks notice and still expected to complete my work in that time, so I think it better to just keep on until they let me go.

Any advice on this?

You are not being bullied and your attitude is not good. You are not up to the job and are embarrassed as they know it and you know it. It's not likely they will make you redundant, they need someone in the job, but they need someone who can do all of the work, and not 70 to 80% of it which is what you can do.

Sorry to be blunt but I think you're trying to make out that its not you, its them.

drunkmonkey · 05-12-2018 6:10pm

Have you thought about moving to management, you've your time served at the coal face.

Lorikeet111 · 05-12-2018 6:12pm

This is a very tricky one, i dont think its fair to just say tough luck to the OP. I think the main issue here could be in IT now our job roles change faster than ever before, if i was to look at my contract now i dont think it would match 20% of what i do day to day.

I think you need to have a open conversation with your manager and come up with a 6 months plan on how you can still contribute to the team and not adding extra work load on your colleagues. In this time either use it to train up in your role or look for another job that you can look forward to again.

Dreading going to work can only put a strain on your mental health and well-being so best of luck getting on top of it.

beauf · 05-12-2018 7:17pm

Are one-to-one weekly meetings normal?

OMM 0000 · 05-12-2018 7:23pm

Lorikeet111 wrote: »

This is a very tricky one, i dont think its fair to just say tough luck to the OP.

kitkat2018 wrote: »

I have to ask members of my team to help me get things done when I get stuck... if I don't ask, then I can't get my work done.

kitkat2018 wrote: »

[They] have given me extra workload on a project that is very complicated and above my skill set. That I don't know how to start.

The main task of being a programmer is being able to solve problems. That means using google, using stackoverflow, reading books, watching training videos, experimenting, using the debugger, asking questions on reddit, etc.

I have over 20 years development experience and I still have to do some of the above multiple times per day.

There will be times when you need to ask one of your teammates to explain a piece of code, but typically this means the code is badly written and needs to be refactored. Maybe the developer hacked together the code without thinking, or maybe he thought he was being "clever" by writing a short but hard to understand piece of code.

If you are sitting at your desk, refusing to figure out an answer yourself, and instead waiting for a teammate to tell you what to do... it means you're unsuited to programming. I've worked with maybe 500 programmers over the years and I've never met anyone who continuously cannot complete his work because he needs his teammate's help every time.

It is my opinion that the OP is not suited to programming. It sounds like she's one of those people who is working as a programmer because she heard the money is good, rather than because she likes it.

She should consider moving to a different role. Product manager is relatively easy and pays very well. QA is tough (thankless) but pays well.

I know my above comment will be unpopular. I don't mean for it to be harsh. I just know a bad programmer when I see one. There are jobs which would suit her better.

OMM 0000 · 05-12-2018 7:29pm

Just to add one more thing:

I've moved people into different roles before.

Example 1:

I had a programmer on one of my teams who just couldn't do a good job. He was smart, and he thought in a very unique way, but it took him forever to do anything and the quality was aways bad. I tried a buddy system, etc., but it didn't work. So I moved him into a QA role and he really thrived. There is a lack of very technical QA people, so he was invaluable. He was much happier in QA.

Example 2:

I had a girl on my team who was a terrible programmer. She didn't get it at all, and she wasn't making much progress. It was really bothering her. It was making her depressed. She just didn't have the brain for it and it was making her feel trapped. She was a lovely person and a good communicator, so I moved her into a product manager role. She was great. It made her happy. Total success.

So don't be afraid to move into a different role. Your development background will help you.

rgodard80a · 05-12-2018 8:43pm

kitkat2018 wrote: »

I am middle aged and I had a career change into software engineering

What courses did you do to move to software engineering ?
Did you complete a computer related degree maybe at nighttime ?

Do you like software engineering, do you have enthusiasm for it, to continue to learn and maybe even complete pet projects at home ?
Or did you just move to it for financial reasons and your heart is not in it?

Good developers will learn and write their own pet projects at home.

A weekly 1:1 meeting is not normal, maybe 3 months at most. If it's a constructive meeting, where they're finding out the gaps in your knowledge and giving you a mentor/buddy to help then that's positive. Maybe working out which tasks might be suitable for you next by assessing your knowledge in a certain area.

If you're middle aged and only just moved into development then you have a lot to catch up on. I've 25 years experience, lead a team and I still have to keep up to date with technologies and work on areas I didn't deal with much in the past. Specialisation tends to be key, that could mean focusing on the web layer - Angular/React/Javascript etc, or backend with web services, restful servers, cloud, big data, databases etc.

A lot of developers have "imposter syndrome" where they think they shouldn't be in a new role.

Managers wouldn't intentionally give you a role in a project to let you fail.
That would risk their project and reflect badly on them.

micks_address · 05-12-2018 8:47pm

I would say the fact they gave you the position kwowing your relevant experience then they should be prepared to give you time to get up to speed, provide additional training if required and on the job coaching etc. The question I'd have is if you want this though or just don't fancy programming so it's always going to be an uphill struggle?

micks_address · 05-12-2018 8:49pm

rgodard80a wrote: »

kitkat2018 wrote: »

I am middle aged and I had a career change into software engineering

What courses did you do to move to software engineering ?
Did you complete a computer related degree maybe at nighttime ?

Do you like software engineering, do you have enthusiasm for it, to continue to learn and maybe even complete pet projects at home ?
Or did you just move to it for financial reasons and your heart is not in it?

Good developers will learn and write their own pet projects at home.

A weekly 1:1 meeting is not normal, maybe 3 months at most. If it's a constructive meeting, where they're finding out the gaps in your knowledge and giving you a mentor/buddy to help then that's positive. Maybe working out which tasks might be suitable for you next by assessing your knowledge in a certain area.

If you're middle aged and only just moved into development then you have a lot to catch up on. I've 25 years experience, lead a team and I still have to keep up to date with technologies and work on areas I didn't deal with much in the past. Specialisation tends to be key, that could mean focusing on the web layer - Angular/React/Javascript etc, or backend with web services, restful servers, cloud, big data, databases etc.

A lot of developers have "imposter syndrome" where they think they shouldn't be in a new role.

Managers wouldn't intentionally give you a role in a project to let you fail.
That would risk their project and reflect badly on them.

Re 1:1s it depends a lot of US companies have 1:1s weekly or every two weeks if you are more senior..depends on the relationship with manager and employee

rgodard80a · 05-12-2018 8:59pm

micks_address wrote: »

Re 1:1s it depends a lot of US companies have 1:1s weekly or every two weeks if you are more senior..depends on the relationship with manager and employee

Yeah, I haven't worked with a US company... mainly because I heard they worked you harder :-)

If there's plenty of other IT jobs available in the locality, then sounds like a move would be worthwhile... but still actively working on their weak areas in development.

Berserker · 06-12-2018 2:55pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Have you thought about moving to management, you've your time served at the coal face.

He has eighteen months experience in the sector.

georgewickstaff · 06-12-2018 3:45pm

stinkbomb wrote: »

You are not being bullied and your attitude is not good. You are not up to the job and are embarrassed as they know it and you know it. It's not likely they will make you redundant, they need someone in the job, but they need someone who can do all of the work, and not 70 to 80% of it which is what you can do.

Sorry to be blunt but I think you're trying to make out that its not you, its them.

Yes, lets drive a coach and horses through probation, fair procedure, possible constructive dismissal and Dignity in work policies because its the internet.

Good lad.

BnB · 08-12-2018 11:15am

Great advice there in the two posts from OMM 0000.

I studied Comp Eng and worked as a developer for about 10 years. Moved on from programming now but still in a technology company.

From my own experience, people I studied with and people I worked with, I would agree with those 2 posts 100%.

Programming is something that you either have or you don't. No one knows every single possible commad/function/whatever of the language they are working with. But good developers have the ability/mindset to come up against something they don't understand and do a bit of research and get past it.

You have a good 18 months experience now in a development team. You can use that experience to shift into another area of software development that isn't quite coding. Anything like project management, quality etc etc. One thing I have seen over the years is the amount of project managers who have never written a line of code in their lives and haven't a clue how a development team works... I think you could bring a lot to a role like that

On a personal level, stop torturing yourself. It is OK to admit when something is not working out for you. Life is too short for that. I read a lot of biographys and all of the most successful people in the world have always had the ability to recognise when something wasn't working and take action.

I don't know you at all but I believe that the day you decide for sure that this isn't for you, you will feel a huge weight off your shoulders. Best of luck

Avatar MIA · 08-12-2018 11:23am

Some good advice on thread.

Doubt the OP will be back though, especially when it looks like the pay off isn't likely to come.

n!ghtmancometh · 09-12-2018 4:45pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

The main task of being a programmer is being able to solve problems. That means using google, using stackoverflow, reading books, watching training videos, experimenting, using the debugger, asking questions on reddit, etc.

I have over 20 years development experience and I still have to do some of the above multiple times per day.

There will be times when you need to ask one of your teammates to explain a piece of code, but typically this means the code is badly written and needs to be refactored. Maybe the developer hacked together the code without thinking, or maybe he thought he was being "clever" by writing a short but hard to understand piece of code.

If you are sitting at your desk, refusing to figure out an answer yourself, and instead waiting for a teammate to tell you what to do... it means you're unsuited to programming. I've worked with maybe 500 programmers over the years and I've never met anyone who continuously cannot complete his work because he needs his teammate's help every time.

It is my opinion that the OP is not suited to programming. It sounds like she's one of those people who is working as a programmer because she heard the money is good, rather than because she likes it.

She should consider moving to a different role. Product manager is relatively easy and pays very well. QA is tough (thankless) but pays well.

I know my above comment will be unpopular. I don't mean for it to be harsh. I just know a bad programmer when I see one. There are jobs which would suit her better.

Op didn't hire themselves, employer has to bear a bit of responsibility if 18 months later their hire still isn't suitable for the role.

Also what's wrong with taking a job for the money? is that a cardinal sin now or something? Or have you bought into the corporate management bs of being passionate about a company that will discard you in a heartbeat.

Avatar MIA · 09-12-2018 6:31pm

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Op didn't hire themselves, employer has to bear a bit of responsibility if 18 months later their hire still isn't suitable for the role.

Also what's wrong with taking a job for the money? is that a cardinal sin now or something? Or have you bought into the corporate management bs of being passionate about a company that will discard you in a heartbeat.

Since when is 18 months a heartbeat? The OP is constantly being helped and admits he's not up to the job.

Those that shout "corporate BS" can never see it from the corporate POV.

OMM 0000 · 09-12-2018 6:37pm

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Op didn't hire themselves, employer has to bear a bit of responsibility if 18 months later their hire still isn't suitable for the role.

I agree.

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Also what's wrong with taking a job for the money? is that a cardinal sin now or something? Or have you bought into the corporate management bs of being passionate about a company that will discard you in a heartbeat.

Programming is not a normal job. Almost no one can do it, and to be good at it you have to genuinely enjoy it. It requires continuous lifelong learning.

Other roles such as product management, QA, support, & technical writing don't require this sort of dedication / passion.

I've been in management (CTO) for 10 years so this is something I know well.

The stuff you read on the BBC about how everyone should learn programming is nonsense. It's not going to work.

beauf · 09-12-2018 7:45pm

I think lots of that is true of many jobs and lots of people don't need to be hermits to coding to be productive programmers.

If a workplace isn't trying to be inclusive and is letting you sink or swim on your own, then you are probably incompatible with each other.

limnam · 09-12-2018 7:50pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Programming is not a normal job. Almost no one can do it, and to be good at it you have to genuinely enjoy it. It requires continuous lifelong learning.

For the most part this is not true.

There's many different levels of complexity and language.

If you take someone working deep in the linux kernel or writing file systems etc.

Then yes very few people can to do it and do it well, the premier league.

Then you have legendary cobol folks who never learn anything new and write and maintain the same thing for decades.

Then there's the huge amount of people in between.

Learning any new skill especially as you get a bit older can be daunting and a lot harder than the 6yr old who picked up basic and went on to be a rock star

It could be the OP is just not in the right company working on the wrong type of projects without a decent mentor etc.

Or maybe soft dev in general is not the right place. But I think jumping the gun that it's not for them based on whats been provided here is a little premature.

A lot of people make out programming is only for a certain mind set and only the special chosen few can do it and for the most part it's BS.

OMM 0000 · 09-12-2018 9:03pm

limnam wrote: »

A lot of people make out programming is only for a certain mind set and only the special chosen few can do it and for the most part it's BS.

It's not BS.

I'd say 80% of the students in my CS degree couldn't program. Similarly in my CS masters.

There's a reason only very few CS graduates work as programmers.

There's a reason why it's very difficult to hire programmers, especially good ones.

I've been doing this for 20+ years.

You have to have a certain type of brain to program. It's not the regular brain.

I agree with you that it's possible the OP could thrive at a different company, but the evidence she has provided tells me she won't.

Berserker · 09-12-2018 9:28pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'd say 80% of the students in my CS degree couldn't program. Similarly in my CS masters.

There's a reason only very few CS graduates work as programmers.

Agree 100%. I used to tutor a programming module in an NUI. The failure rate was through the roof. A heavy majority of the class couldn't grasp it. Correcting those exams was an experience I'll never forget. Try as I might, I just couldn't give marks away. One of the best devs I ever worked with was an artist, art grad. Not sure how he started off in the programming game but he was superb.

beauf · 09-12-2018 10:03pm

In fairness a lot of people will have 20+ years of experience. I know people with 30+ yrs of experience, and they build bad systems repeatedly.

There is a difference between not everyone is a programmer, and you have to be in the top 10% of programmers or give up and work in a shop.

Because there is a flip side to this. That top 10% won't want to do all the lesser work, and that 90% who you need to for all that other work, you've sent home for an early bath. The other side is that 10% will often build systems that no else can maintain. They don't build KISS. So if they leave, and they will once all the cool stuff is gone, you have a problem.

I do think this idea that everyone can and should code is wrong. Its a mindset of problem solving. Not everyone can be in the top 5% of coders. But I don't think its unique to programming. Lots of industries and roles that are high level and highly specialized. They all think not everyone can do what they can do. But every industry has that top 5%.

I think all of this is over the head of the OP. The OP needs to find somewhere that fits them better. A better work/life balance.

limnam · 09-12-2018 10:21pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

It's not BS.

I'd say 80% of the students in my CS degree couldn't program. Similarly in my CS masters.

There's a reason only very few CS graduates work as programmers.

There's a reason why it's very difficult to hire programmers, especially good ones.

I've been doing this for 20+ years.

You have to have a certain type of brain to program. It's not the regular brain.

I agree with you that it's possible the OP could thrive at a different company, but the evidence she has provided tells me she won't.

I can't argue against what happened/happens on CS courses.

The majority of the best dev's I've came across didn't do a CS degree.

I'm not suggesting that to reach a certain level in certain languages is not "hard" but the ones who are really good you're doing a disservice to say "they're wired that way" it's horse sh|t. It's generally down to level of interest/hard work etc and a dash of talent.

But again to claim only some people can code is utter nonsense. Sure there will only be a handful of linus/stallman's etc but with the right application and interest pretty much anyone can.

beauf · 09-12-2018 10:34pm

limnam wrote: »

....but with the right application and interest pretty much anyone can....

Not everyone has the interest. So that rules out "anyone".

I think the company is trying to make me quit my job

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