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Jobs for the girls

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37 Steve456


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If the creation of gender-specific posts is legally defensible at all (which is open to doubt), it's certainly only defensible if less radical measures have already been tried and found ineffective. So, yeah, at the very least you'd want to give it lash with the gender-balanced interview panels and other changes in the recruitment and selection process before you go full throttle with gender-specific positions.

    It's the (actually rather small number of) gender-specific posts that have attracted all the media attention, but actually what MMO'C has proposed has a number of elements to it, including gender-balanced panels and a great deal else. She may not care whether the gender-specific posts work out so long as the rest of her proposals are accepted, which it sounds as if they will be. Probably the most intrusive measure from the university point of view is the financial penalties that will be triggered if overall numbers of senior women don't hit certain targets within a few years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    Imagine if this goes ahead, it could harm women in private industry. Prospective employer's will be asking themselves "did she earn the job on merit, or only get it because not enough women applied"
    Hardly women in private industry, since the proposal relates to creating female-only professorial positions in third-level colleges.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Hardly women in private industry, since the proposal relates to creating female-only professorial positions in third-level colleges.

    If moving from third level into private sector. But if the minister/government get their way. It might open the door to other areas to adopt such a regressive move


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,639 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    If there is such inequality because of it being men promoting men to professorships, would an easy solution be to have the interview panels consist of an equal number of men and women? That would create a level playing field, wouldn't it?
    That is simplistic. The make up of the interview panel is of little help if the vast majority of candidates are from one gender.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,639 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    On the broader issue, I think we should do away with experts on research, policy and law and instead, have all new developments come from the combined wisdom of AH posters who know next to nothing about the the issues in question.

    What could possibly go wrong?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    That is simplistic. The make up of the interview panel is of little help if the vast majority of candidates are from one gender.


    And if the vast majority of candidates are from one gender, whose fault is that? It's not the employers. They advertise the role and both male and female candidates are free to apply.

    Certain jobs appeal to men more than women and vice versa. That's just the way it is. Unless you are arguing that there must be an equal number of men and women applying for every single job?

    If both genders can apply for the role, then where is the bias at that stage? Bias could potentially come into play later in the selection of candidates for interview but if the interview selection panel is 50:50 male/female, then that reduces the likelihood of bias.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭ahnowbrowncow


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    If there is such inequality because of it being men promoting men to professorships, would an easy solution be to have the interview panels consist of an equal number of men and women? That would create a level playing field, wouldn't it?

    There isn't even an inequality in promotion.

    This post shows that the number of female promotions is in proportion to the number of female applicants.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108613066&postcount=8681

    The issue, if it is even an issue, is that women aren't applying for the top positions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    On the broader issue, I think we should do away with experts on research, policy and law and instead, have all new developments come from the combined wisdom of AH posters who know next to nothing about the the issues in question.

    What could possibly go wrong?

    For the record, this isn't AH.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    In academia, I reckon it's likely to be a legacy issue. That is, more men began their working life in the sector (and indeed most sectors) in the '70s and '80s than women. In academia particularly, once you get a full-time permanent post, relatively few leave. What I'm suggesting is that, back in the day, if you get a full time lectureship in 1980, you'd be more likely than not to still be in the same department in the same university decades later. This effect, I suspect, also applies to the more senior posts.

    However, I'm also not aware of any historical statistical data on this, so it's supposition based on personal observation.

    But essentially what I am suggesting is that (a) there are few enough of the top-level academic jobs going, and (b) for historical reasons most of the incumbents and senior potential candidates for those happen to be men. And this can be very subject/specialism dependent, too.

    This will naturally change over time as previous generations of male incumbents retire and more women rise through the academic ranks. I believe that the academic labour market has until relatively recently (last 15 to 20 years, so 'tortoise time'!) been quite isolated from job mobility trends.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    On the broader issue, I think we should do away with experts on research, policy and law and instead, have all new developments come from the combined wisdom of AH posters who know next to nothing about the the issues in question.

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Indeed everyone in AH is a self proclaimed expert on just about everything at times.

    Mind you the expertise of the experts on research, policy and law at the Gender Equality Taskforce is questionable in light of the report Peregrinus linked to, may as well of handed it over to AH for quality expertise :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Thanks, GM228. You read the cases so I don't have to.

    It did occur to me, after I had posted, that it was a little odd to be citing the authority of the Netherlands Institute for Human Rights, and accepting at face value the claim that NIHR was interpreting and applying ECJ cases rather than to cite the relevant ECJ cases directly, and that this might be explained if the interpretation asserted by the NIHR was, ah, at the more favourable end of a scale of possible readings of the ECJ cases. And your analysis suggest that this is very much so.

    I think the problem is the five members of the Taskforce had no legal training or experience, I would imagine they have a solicitor in the background, but not sure. At least one of the members should have been legally trained IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,313 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    If there is such inequality because of it being men promoting men to professorships, would an easy solution be to have the interview panels consist of an equal number of men and women? That would create a level playing field, wouldn't it?

    No, because a fair proportion of women defer to men and discriminate against other women - you get stuff like this: https://twitter.com/BiellaColeman/status/1060947727692021761


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I'm not questioning the validity of that Irish Research Council flyer quoted above, nor am I doubting the truth of it, but based on the information contained in it, you can't say conclusively that gender blinding improves the likelihood of women doing better if the application process is gender blind. My rationale behind this is that it mentions the percentage of female applicants in 2014 but fails to mention it for 2017. I'm only playing devil's advocate here but maybe there was a higher percentage of female applicants in 2017 and that's why the percentage of awards to females were higher.

    That said, I'm happy enough that my original point still stands as part of the solution though. The article you quoted says so in the last paragraph.

    Realistically though, how are gender-blind interviews held. I know you can have them over the phone etc. with voice changers etc., but is that a realistic approach?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,370 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    I would have thought that it’s unconstitutional with regards article 40.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,313 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Realistically though, how are gender-blind interviews held. I know you can have them over the phone etc. with voice changers etc., but is that a realistic approach?
    Interviews were only given some of the marks in awarding funds. Up to that point, assessment was anonymised.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,313 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    ted1 wrote: »
    I would have thought that it’s unconstitutional with regards article 40.
    Do you mean this?

    https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Historical_Information/The_Constitution/February_2015_-_Constitution_of_Ireland_.pdf
    ARTICLE 40

    1 All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law
    You can hardly take that line alone, without considering the following line.
    This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.

    Balancing past discrimination is a social function.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,370 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Victor wrote: »
    Do you mean this?

    https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Historical_Information/The_Constitution/February_2015_-_Constitution_of_Ireland_.pdfYou can hardly take that line alone, without considering the following line.



    Balancing past discrimination is a social function.

    I’d certainly challenge it , I’d add that i have never seen a female bin person , school janitor , etc and on the basis of singularity of high reward positions that it’s singular discrimination agsinest men in high profile positions and that if they were serious they should start at mid income positions


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I think you'd have your work cut out. The constitutional guarantee of equality before the law is mainly seen as directed at how the state treats you in its laws, and not at how non-state actors treat you in social, economic, etc relationships. Sex discrimination in employment was commonplace and explicit for forty years after the Constitution was enacted and what prevents it now is not the Constitution, but the employment equality legislation. I think it would be a significant expansion of the scope of Art 40.6.1 to hold that it binds employers in the context of an employment relationship, and the courts would be reluctant to take that step.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,313 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Art 40.6.1
    Is that the correct one?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    No, it isn't. I mean Art. 40.1 - the guarantee of equality before the law.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Victor wrote: »
    No, because a fair proportion of women defer to men and discriminate against other women - you get stuff like this: https://twitter.com/BiellaColeman/status/1060947727692021761

    I support going gender blind. A blind algorithm is the way to go but it is not always possible. It would work fine as a way to promote a lecturer to professor but you couldn't use it hire lecturers.

    That been said in Australia going gender blind has reduced the numbers of women in some jobs.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888

    Another example is the famous Uber study. Female Uber drivers earn less even though pay is based on an entirely gender blind formula. It couldn't be more gender blind. They earn less as they prefer to drive more safely by going at a slower speed, while men driver fast, incur risk to themselves and gain more pay as a result.
    http://fortune.com/2018/02/06/uber-gender-pay-gap-study/


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,767 ✭✭✭SterlingArcher


    GM228 wrote: »
    Indeed everyone in AH is a self proclaimed expert on just about everything at times.

    Mind you the expertise of the experts on research, policy and law at the Gender Equality Taskforce is questionable in light of the report Peregrinus linked to, may as well of handed it over to AH for quality expertise :)

    I would go further and say that the Gender Equality Taskforce was wholly compromised.

    At least with the AH expertise there were no personal or subsidised financial gains or promise's to be made.

    We are talking about the installation of systematic discrimination into academia.

    Nobody in their right mind could consider this a wise move and the fact it is being ham fisted in speaks volumes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robp wrote: »
    . . . Another example is the famous Uber study. Female Uber drivers earn less even though pay is based on an entirely gender blind formula. It couldn't be more gender blind. They earn less as they prefer to drive more safely by going at a slower speed, while men driver fast, incur risk to themselves and gain more pay as a result.
    http://fortune.com/2018/02/06/uber-gender-pay-gap-study/
    Which just goes to show that a "gender-blind" formula isn't necessarily truly gender-blind. What seems to be at work here is that the formula implicitly endorses the more typically male prioritisation of speed over safety, and therefore pays more money to drivers who share this priority, who are mostly men.

    It's not that different from saying that an employment requirement of "must be at least 1.80 metres in height" is gender-blind. Formally it's gender-blind, but in practical operation it's anything but; it will result in an overwhelmingly male workforce.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Which just goes to show that a "gender-blind" formula isn't necessarily truly gender-blind. What seems to be at work here is that the formula implicitly endorses the more typically male prioritisation of speed over safety, and therefore pays more money to drivers who share this priority, who are mostly men.

    It's not that different from saying that an employment requirement of "must be at least 1.80 metres in height" is gender-blind. Formally it's gender-blind, but in practical operation it's anything but; it will result in an overwhelmingly male workforce.

    There is nothing stopping women driving fast. Many women do drive fast and do so to a very high level. I'm a male and several female friends drive much faster and safer than me. Amongst US female Uber drivers, females on average choose to drive slightly slower. But is a choice. To imply women can't drive faster is patronising.

    The Uber workforce exists to service a purpose. So do professors. And if either sex is not willing to do service that purpose than they don't deserve a job.

    Look either men and women are essentially identical and should be equally represented or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robp wrote: »
    There is nothing stopping women driving fast. Many women do drive fast and do so to a very high level. I'm a male and several female friends drive much faster and safer than me. Amongst US female Uber drivers, females on average choose to drive slightly slower. But is a choice. To imply women can't drive faster is patronising.

    The Uber workforce exists to service a purpose. So do professors. And if either sex is not willing to do service that purpose than they don't deserve a job.

    Look either men and women are essentially identical and should be equally represented or not.
    I'm not saying that they can't drive faster; I'm saying that, as reported, they typically don't drive faster. They balance the speed/safety tension differently to men.

    The point here is that the formula pays more to faster drivers, therefore rewarding those drivers (mostly men) who prioritise speed. But this may simply reflect the fact that the formula was developed by men, or that it was developed by studying data from a pool of mostly male Uber drivers, and so it reflects the typically male prioritisation. It doesn't follow that the formula is in some objective sense "right", or that it is optimal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I'm not saying that they can't drive faster; I'm saying that, as reported, they typically don't drive faster. They balance the speed/safety tension differently to men.

    The point here is that the formula pays more to faster drivers, therefore rewarding those drivers (mostly men) who prioritise speed. But this may simply reflect the fact that the formula was developed by men, or that it was developed by studying data from a pool of mostly male Uber drivers, and so it reflects the typically male prioritisation. It doesn't follow that the formula is in some objective sense "right", or that it is optimal.

    Do you think that it should be readjusted?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't know; I just don't start from the assumption that it is presently optimal.

    Basically, you can't defend the outcomes this formula produces by pointing to the fact that these are the outcomes it produces. My view would be that a formula that works to pay more to men than to women (or vice versa) requires investigation, and possibly revision. But you can't say that it definitely requires revision; that judgement can only be made after the investigation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't know; I just don't start from the assumption that it is presently optimal.

    Basically, you can't defend the outcomes this formula produces by pointing to the fact that these are the outcomes it produces. My view would be that a formula that works to pay more to men than to women (or vice versa) requires investigation, and possibly revision. But you can't say that it definitely requires revision; that judgement can only be made after the investigation.

    It appears to me that the algorithm is as gender blind as an algorithm can be, and that equality of opportunity to earn equal amounts has been afforded to both genders.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It appears to me that the algorithm is as gender blind as an algorithm can be, and that equality of opportunity to earn equal amounts has been afforded to both genders.
    It depends on what you mean by "gender-blind".

    To go back to an earlier example, a job requirement of "must be at least 1.80m in height" is formally gender-blind, but of course will exclude far more women than men. In its impact it's not gender-neutral at all.

    Suppose we adopt this requirement for, say, a retail sales assistant position. Leaving aside the question of justice/fairness to applicants, there's an issue from the employer's point of view; lots of otherwise well-qualified applicants are going to be excluded by this. And, in other respects, some of them might make better sales assistants that some of the people who meet the criterion - they might be better at communicating with customers, for example, or more creative in meeting customers needs. And this doesn't just affect the employers, of course, but also the customers.

    So we should ask ourselves "Why is this requirement here? Just how important is it that the assistants should be at least 1.80m tall?" And we might find that the requirement was included, say, because of a need to reach goods stored on the top shelf. In which case we should at least consider whether a better approach - better for employers, better for customers, fairer to jobseekers - might be to drop the requirement and instead provide footstools, or rearrange the shelving. Everyone's a winner!

    Right: The Uber case. According to the article, the gender disparity was the result of a number of factors:

    - Experience: 77% of women quity driving for Uber within 6 months, as compared with 65% of men. Longer-serving drivers tend to earn more.

    - Speed: The male drivers tend to drive faster. The algorithm rewards this.

    - Pitch: The male drivers are more likely to ply for hire in areas of higher demand, and more frequent surge pricing.

    OK: Without thinking too deeply about it, two things leap out. First, the higher dropout rate for female drivers is in itself concerning, no? The gig economy is supposed to be flexible, to suit those who seek control over their work /life balance, etc. It's supposed to address the problems of inflexibility and demands for a 40-hour commitment that work to women's disadvantage in more traditionally-structured employments. But that doesn't seem to be working here. Why? There have already been reports of toxic and abusive culture at Uber; are these two things connected? It certainly seems worth looking into. This doesn't necessarily suggest that the algorithm needs changing, but it does point to other action that may need to be taken.

    Secondly, the algorithm rewards speed, but does it ignore the safety/punctuality bonuses that are associated with driving at lower speed? If it rewards the one but not the other, that looks skewed, and it's a skew that impacts differently on men and women. It may be there's a good reason the relative rewards attached to speed and to safety/punctuality but, given that they impact differently on different genders, this looks like indirect discrimination unless and until that reason is identified and found to be objectively justified.

    So, yeah, formal gender-blindness isn't really enough to avoid either the moral or the economic problems that result from employment/payment practices that tend to disfavour one gender.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It depends on what you mean by "gender-blind".

    To go back to an earlier example, a job requirement of "must be at least 1.80m in height" is formally gender-blind, but of course will exclude far more women than men. In its impact it's not gender-neutral at all.

    Suppose we adopt this requirement for, say, a retail sales assistant position. Leaving aside the question of justice/fairness to applicants, there's an issue from the employer's point of view; lots of otherwise well-qualified applicants are going to be excluded by this. And, in other respects, some of them might make better sales assistants that some of the people who meet the criterion - they might be better at communicating with customers, for example, or more creative in meeting customers needs. And this doesn't just affect the employers, of course, but also the customers.

    So we should ask ourselves "Why is this requirement here? Just how important is it that the assistants should be at least 1.80m tall?" And we might find that the requirement was included, say, because of a need to reach goods stored on the top shelf. In which case we should at least consider whether a better approach - better for employers, better for customers, fairer to jobseekers - might be to drop the requirement and instead provide footstools, or rearrange the shelving. Everyone's a winner!

    Right: The Uber case. According to the article, the gender disparity was the result of a number of factors:

    - Experience: 77% of women quity driving for Uber within 6 months, as compared with 65% of men. Longer-serving drivers tend to earn more.

    - Speed: The male drivers tend to drive faster. The algorithm rewards this.

    - Pitch: The male drivers are more likely to ply for hire in areas of higher demand, and more frequent surge pricing.

    OK: Without thinking too deeply about it, two things leap out. First, the higher dropout rate for female drivers is in itself concerning, no? The gig economy is supposed to be flexible, to suit those who seek control over their work /life balance, etc. It's supposed to address the problems of inflexibility and demands for a 40-hour commitment that work to women's disadvantage in more traditionally-structured employments. But that doesn't seem to be working here. Why? There have already been reports of toxic and abusive culture at Uber; are these two things connected? It certainly seems worth looking into. This doesn't necessarily suggest that the algorithm needs changing, but it does point to other action that may need to be taken.

    Secondly, the algorithm rewards speed, but does it ignore the safety/punctuality bonuses that are associated with driving at lower speed? If it rewards the one but not the other, that looks skewed, and it's a skew that impacts differently on men and women. It may be there's a good reason the relative rewards attached to speed and to safety/punctuality but, given that they impact differently on different genders, this looks like indirect discrimination unless and until that reason is identified and found to be objectively justified.

    So, yeah, formal gender-blindness isn't really enough to avoid either the moral or the economic problems that result from employment/payment practices that tend to disfavour one gender.

    Uber doesnt exist to fulfil the expectations of your ideological agenda. It doesn't exist to provide jobs for women, or men. It exists to make a a ton of money by displacing taxis and making transport easier. To argue it was designed for men by men is not only far fetched but plucked out of thin air. By your logic allowing men to take less sick days then women is indirect discrimination because it allows them to advance their careers in way lost to women.


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