Possible fallout from not being a union member?

#1 · 25-10-2018 08:49PM #1

So annoyed (yet again) at the TUI and our membership, they'd leave you down with a bang every time.

Really considering just cutting my losses and not bothering with any union membership . They don't represent me and haven't in a long time.

I'm not part of an income continuance plan so can leave quite easily. I know that I wouldn't get any pittance of a wage agreement that TUI pretended to negotiate.

Just wondering what other factors I should be considering first?

evolving_doors · 25-10-2018 09:08PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

So annoyed (yet again) at the TUI and our membership, they'd leave you down with a bang every time.

Really considering just cutting my losses and not bothering with any union membership . They don't represent me and haven't in a long time.

I'm not part of an income continuance plan so can leave quite easily. I know that I wouldn't get any pittance of a wage agreement that TUI pretended to negotiate.

Just wondering what other factors I should be considering first?

Maybe instead of thinking just individually and nationally, think about the school you're in. If the union numbers start to dwindle then it's open season, and you have no recourse or someone experienced to come in to the school and speak on you or the staff's behalf. First dissenter might be in the firing line with punitive timetable new school year.

...or maybe consider switching sides to the ASTI :eek:

Actually is it fair game to switch sides now as there's no dispute?

ethical · 25-10-2018 09:27PM

The one big reason to be a union member is to have legal cover ,should you need it,otherwise have very,very deep pockets to fork out for legal advice and protection when.if you require it!

deiseindublin · 25-10-2018 10:14PM

evolving_doors wrote: »

If the union numbers start to dwindle then it's open season

Is it not open season already?

deiseindublin · 25-10-2018 10:16PM

ethical wrote: »

The one big reason to be a union member is to have legal cover ,should you need it,otherwise have very,very deep pockets to fork out for legal advice and protection when.if you require it!

I reckon those of us disillusioned enough should be investing our subs in a rainy day fund for such legal advice. At least then you'd know there was nobody pretending to represent you.

Seámus-Púbach · 25-10-2018 11:00PM

On a similar theme, looking for info, I'm in an ASTI school and am not part off a union. Ironically its because I could not afford to join when renting in Dublin and not on full hours when I got out off college (after the initial 1st year). I've - foolishly- never really got around to joining as the years have passed.

2 Questions:
If I join over the mid term break for example, will I be paid up for just the rest of the academic year, or until next October/November?

If I join over the mid term break will I be permitted to vote in the upcoming ballot?

Cheer for any help

mtoutlemonde · 25-10-2018 11:08PM

Seámus-Púbach wrote: »

On a similar theme, looking for info, I'm in an ASTI school and am not part off a union. Ironically its because I could not afford to join when renting in Dublin and not on full hours when I got out off college (after the initial 1st year). I've - foolishly- never really got around to joining as the years have passed.

2 Questions:
If I join over the mid term break for example, will I be paid up for just the rest of the academic year, or until next October/November?

If I join over the mid term break will I be permitted to vote in the upcoming ballot?

Cheer for any help

If you join over mid-term you will pay for the rest of the year. You will not be a full member until ratified at branch meeting. If you're subbing, it's ~€50 for the year, if more it's calculated on your hours and comes from your payslip.

As far as I know you won't be able to vote in the upcoming ballot as you wouldn't be on the school list. I'm not a shop steward but there may be spare ballots for people like yourself just joining.

It's extremely important to be in a union for that one parent that could ruin your career!!!

Seámus-Púbach · 25-10-2018 11:10PM

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Seámus-Púbach wrote: »

On a similar theme, looking for info, I'm in an ASTI school and am not part off a union. Ironically its because I could not afford to join when renting in Dublin and not on full hours when I got out off college (after the initial 1st year). I've - foolishly- never really got around to joining as the years have passed.

2 Questions:
If I join over the mid term break for example, will I be paid up for just the rest of the academic year, or until next October/November?

If I join over the mid term break will I be permitted to vote in the upcoming ballot?

Cheer for any help

If you join over mid-term you will pay for the rest of the year. You will not be a full member until ratified at branch meeting. If you're subbing, it's ~€50 for the year, if more it's calculated on your hours and comes from your payslip.

As far as I know you won't be able to vote in the upcoming ballot as you wouldn't be on the school list. I'm not a shop steward but there may be spare ballots for people like yourself just joining.

It's extremely important to be in a union for that one parent that could ruin your career!!!

Thats the big one! Cheers for that reply!

Dunne_bkill · 25-10-2018 11:28PM

mtoutlemonde wrote:

If you join over mid-term you will pay for the rest of the year. You will not be a full member until ratified at branch meeting. If you're subbing, it's ~â‚¬50 for the year, if more it's calculated on your hours and comes from your payslip.

I'm a casual sub in a school for the year, can I join for this â‚¬50 fee? Was under the impression you had to have a contract somewhere.

SligoBrewer · 25-10-2018 11:31PM

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

If you join over mid-term you will pay for the rest of the year. You will not be a full member until ratified at branch meeting. If you're subbing, it's ~€50 for the year, if more it's calculated on your hours and comes from your payslip.

As far as I know you won't be able to vote in the upcoming ballot as you wouldn't be on the school list. I'm not a shop steward but there may be spare ballots for people like yourself just joining.

It's extremely important to be in a union for that one parent that could ruin your career!!!

There's no spare ballots for new members. Either you are in by a certain date or you are not. Sin é.

mtoutlemonde · 25-10-2018 11:34PM

Dunne_bkill wrote: »

I'm a casual sub in a school for the year, can I join for this €50 fee? Was under the impression you had to have a contract somewhere.

No you don't need a contract to be a member. You will need two ASTI members to sign your membership form though.

SligoBrewer wrote: »

There's no spare ballots for new members. Either you are in by a certain date or you are not. Sin é.

That's what I thought but just wasn't 100% sure.

Samsarah · 25-10-2018 11:45PM

ethical wrote: »

The one big reason to be a union member is to have legal cover ,should you need it,otherwise have very,very deep pockets to fork out for legal advice and protection when.if you require it!

Is there any evidence of unions providing representation for members when needed. I have heard many stories of the teaching unions throwing members under the bus at their time of need. I really don’t think that they can be relied on for protection of individual members rights.

SligoBrewer · 25-10-2018 11:47PM

Samsarah wrote: »

Is there any evidence of unions providing representation for members when needed. I have heard many stories of the teaching unions throwing members under the bus at their time of need.

Loads. People aren't going to divulge PI on here but safe to say the trope is true for a reason.

Samsarah · 25-10-2018 11:49PM

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Loads. People aren't going to divulge PI on here but safe to say the trope is true for a reason.

Sorry, but I do not believe your spin.

Snotty · 25-10-2018 11:55PM

Samsarah wrote: »

Sorry, but I do not believe your spin.

Me neither

SligoBrewer · 25-10-2018 11:55PM

Samsarah wrote: »

Sorry, but I do not believe your spin.

Believe what you want, it's your future not mine.

beveragelady · 26-10-2018 12:22AM

The most recent ballot leaves us with one of two possible conclusions to draw.
A) The majority of union members are grabby excrement-heads who decided to accept an unfair pay agreement because it suited them.

The ballot is a farce and a charade, and the TUI executive are laughing at us while returning whatever result they want.

Either way, it's not an organisation I want to be a part of any more.

If a union isn't able to use the voice of the many to protect the few, and the voice of the strong to protect the weak, what on earth is it all for?

Samsarah · 26-10-2018 12:45AM

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Believe what you want, it's your future not mine.

Yes it is. And I would like to go to work each day safe in the knowledge that my rights as an employee are protected. However I do not have that option because the unions representing teachers often lack the necessary expertise, and more importantly have become so political that they have lost sight of the members who fund their union.

evolving_doors · 26-10-2018 01:29AM

deiseindublin wrote: »

I reckon those of us disillusioned enough should be investing our subs in a rainy day fund for such legal advice. At least then you'd know there was nobody pretending to represent you.

You'd probably need 5 years of subs to press a solicitors doorbell.
And again employment law isn't quite as clearcut when it comes to the multitude of teaching contracts... presumably child protection would mean a knowledgeable solicitor in that area too.

evolving_doors · 26-10-2018 01:36AM

Samsarah wrote: »

Is there any evidence of unions providing representation for members when needed. I have heard many stories of the teaching unions throwing members under the bus at their time of need. I really don’t think that they can be relied on for protection of individual members rights.

In monthly newsletters they refer to cases (ASTI anyway, dunno about tui)
Also a regular poster on here said that their union got contracts sorted. Once the Principal knew the union were aware of the discrepancy they backed down.... could they have just gone the legal route straight away? Probably but legal should only be the final straw.
Also you can do a Google search for legal employment cases in the courts. Search for CID teacher court and away you go. Little bit of digging but the cases are there.

SligoBrewer · 26-10-2018 01:51AM

evolving_doors wrote: »

In monthly newsletters they refer to cases (ASTI anyway, dunno about tui)
Also a regular poster on here said that their union got contracts sorted. Once the Principal knew the union were aware of the discrepancy they backed down.... could they have just gone the legal route straight away? Probably but legal should only be the final straw.
Also you can do a Google search for legal employment cases in the courts. Search for CID teacher court and away you go. Little bit of digging but the cases are there.

Hey man, less of the spin.

mvron · 26-10-2018 07:04AM

Samsarah wrote: »

Is there any evidence of unions providing representation for members when needed. I have heard many stories of the teaching unions throwing members under the bus at their time of need. I really don’t think that they can be relied on for protection of individual members rights.

I'm one of the people who the union (successfully) fought for & I can honestly say that I will never give my membership because of it.

evolving_doors · 26-10-2018 08:18AM

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Hey man, less of the spin.

I'm only answering his question Sir.

Samsarah · 26-10-2018 10:19AM

evolving_doors wrote: »

In monthly newsletters they refer to cases (ASTI anyway, dunno about tui)
Also a regular poster on here said that their union got contracts sorted. Once the Principal knew the union were aware of the discrepancy they backed down.... could they have just gone the legal route straight away? Probably but legal should only be the final straw.
Also you can do a Google search for legal employment cases in the courts. Search for CID teacher court and away you go. Little bit of digging but the cases are there.

I’m thinking of filing grievances, dealing with the disciplinary process, dismissal cases which are considerably more complex. Dealing with contracts is quite straightforward and it would be easy enough to get representation outside of the union.

Samsarah · 26-10-2018 10:21AM

mvron wrote: »

I'm one of the people who the union (successfully) fought for & I can honestly say that I will never give my membership because of it.

It would be helpful if you could elaborate a little on your experience, without giving too much personal information.

gaiscioch · 26-10-2018 11:13PM

ethical wrote: »

The one big reason to be a union member is to have legal cover ,should you need it,otherwise have very,very deep pockets to fork out for legal advice and protection when.if you require it!

evolving_doors wrote: »

You'd probably need 5 years of subs to press a solicitors doorbell.

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

It's extremely important to be in a union for that one parent that could ruin your career!!!

All of these, 100%. None of us want to be the next Eileen Flynn, a non-ASTI teacher whose career was destroyed by thugs in power using legal judgements that were truly shocking. If it were possible to take out additional protection and I were in a fee-charging school I would as one's probably more likely to encounter a parent with big pockets, better connections and a partiality for threatening and intimidating there.

In that context, the union's resources should be able to not just protect your career and reputation but to help you protect your mental health. You really do not want to be alone when more connected people or a more powerful organisation decides to target you. That €335 I pay each year to the ASTI is just another insurance policy, a recognition that there are far more powerful people than I and that, as the Eileen Flynn case showed, it would be ineffably naive on my part to think justice will automatically triumph over injustice.

AndrewJRenko · 27-10-2018 12:00PM

beveragelady wrote: »

The most recent ballot leaves us with one of two possible conclusions to draw.
A) The majority of union members are grabby excrement-heads who decided to accept an unfair pay agreement because it suited them.
The ballot is a farce and a charade, and the TUI executive are laughing at us while returning whatever result they want.

Either way, it's not an organisation I want to be a part of any more.

If a union isn't able to use the voice of the many to protect the few, and the voice of the strong to protect the weak, what on earth is it all for?

Did you do much campaigning for votes yourself?

The union is a strong as the members.

beveragelady · 27-10-2018 12:11PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Did you do much campaigning for votes yourself?

The union is a strong as the members.

I've never known anybody to campaign for non-election votes in a TUI ballot. I've certainly never been approached by campaigners attempting to sway my vote.

So no, I don't get classes covered so I can travel to other schools to make speeches from the stump in the run-up to a ballot. However, I discuss and argue the various issues with colleagues. Will that do?

We keep being told that the union is as strong as its members, as if that should make us feel chastened for questioning its integrity and purpose. Infuriating.

AndrewJRenko · 27-10-2018 12:56PM

beveragelady wrote: »

I've never known anybody to campaign for non-election votes in a TUI ballot. I've certainly never been approached by campaigners attempting to sway my vote.

So no, I don't get classes covered so I can travel to other schools to make speeches from the stump in the run-up to a ballot. However, I discuss and argue the various issues with colleagues. Will that do?

We keep being told that the union is as strong as its members, as if that should make us feel chastened for questioning its integrity and purpose. Infuriating.

I didn't mention anything about going to other schools. If everyone interested covered their own school, that would make a big difference to the result. Turnout was very low, I hear.

Have you gone to union meetings to raise these issues? Or taken on the role of local union rep?

beveragelady · 27-10-2018 01:17PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I didn't mention anything about going to other schools. If everyone interested covered their own school, that would make a big difference to the result. Turnout was very low, I hear.

Have you gone to union meetings to raise these issues? Or taken on the role of local union rep?

I rarely miss a union meeting. I have been a branch secretary, and held other less taxing roles.
I have no idea why you're making this all about me though,

AndrewJRenko · 27-10-2018 01:33PM

beveragelady wrote: »

I rarely miss a union meeting. I have been a branch secretary, and held other less taxing roles.
I have no idea why you're making this all about me though,

Fair play for taking on those roles. Isn't that the solution - for the disgruntled teachers to take on more roles and be more active - to ensure the union is meeting their needs and addressing their issues. It is their union.

Possible fallout from not being a union member?

Comments