Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

wexie · 23-10-2018 07:38PM

Tadeo Mysterious SailboatMGS wrote: »

I don’t know because she hasn’t been put in prison. But I can tell you from spending some time in a cell for mental illness reasons if someone locked me in there for years I wouldn’t be begging to go back.

Besides that whether or not she goes back to being a criminal or not does not mean she just be left to do as she wants. How does that even make any sense to you? We’re not talking about whether to ground a rebellious teenager here, incarceration of a criminal should not be debated. It should be done. This kind of attitude is why there’s little ****s with hundreds of convictions and nary a day spent in a prison.

No, but would you really compare your self to her?

And I never said we should just let her at it, I said that sticking her in prison won't solve anything or make anything better. Literally the only thing it would achieve is to stop her robbing stuff while she's in prison.

I think we should be more focused on solving the actual problem rather than temporarily hiding it.

What kind of attitude? I think you're either misreading what I'm saying or being a little awkward. I've been pretty clear that the current system doesn't work, it provides neither real punishment nor real improvement. It's just keeping the wheels turning.

Paddy Cow · 23-10-2018 07:40PM

Where is Margaret's partner in all this? I think the kids all have the same father so does he not have some responsibility to provide for his kids?

wexie · 23-10-2018 07:41PM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Where is Margaret's partner in all this? I think the kids all have the same father so does he not have some responsibility to provide for his kids?

Well....he should do...whether or not he shares that sentiment, or by what means he feels he should be providing is a different thing altogether.

23-10-2018 07:43PM

wexie wrote: »

No, but would you really compare your self to her?

And I never said we should just let her at it, I said that sticking her in prison won't solve anything or make anything better. Literally the only thing it would achieve is to stop her robbing stuff while she's in prison.

I think we should be more focused on solving the actual problem rather than temporarily hiding it.

What kind of attitude? I think you're either misreading what I'm saying or being a little awkward. I've been pretty clear that the current system doesn't work, it provides neither real punishment nor real improvement. It's just keeping the wheels turning.

That is the purpose of prison though?? To punish and rehabilitate criminals. And I wouldn’t liken myself to her either, however no one wants to be confined to a small cell 20+ hours a day for months or years. These criminals aren’t stupid and they are well aware they can more or less get away with anything “minor”. If judges started handing down custodial sentences to people like her on their first or second offence then they’d soon start learning to behave. I mean as has been said why bother your barney to be law abiding when you won’t see the inside of prison walls. It’s a scandal that you have to be a murderer or pedo or similar to be incarcerated.

wexie · 23-10-2018 07:51PM

Tadeo Mysterious SailboatMGS wrote: »

That is the purpose of prison though?? To punish and rehabilitate criminals.

Ah....and there we have it...

From what I gather in Irish prisons rehabilitation is 'optional'....entirely up to the individual whether or not they want to engage (or at least that is what I have been told, I'd be delighted to be proven wrong).

Now....what do you think the odds are an individual like Margaret Cash is going to come into prison, sit herself down and think to herself :

'you know what, this really sucks, I shouldn't have ended up in here. But now that I'm here I'm going to use every resource available to me to make sure that I won't have to come back'

Personally I think those odds are somewhere between me getting to bed Scarlet Johansson and me having a drink (or a few) with Dean Martin

And yes she hasn't actually been in prison, but there should be no reason she can't be told (as part of a suspended sentence) : you're going on this course, you're going to make an effort, if you don't we'll be seeing you back in here.

Tadeo Mysterious SailboatMGS wrote: »

It’s a scandal that you have to be a murderer or pedo or similar to be incarcerated.

Yes it is

23-10-2018 07:53PM

Well then adopt a system of parole similar to the US. If a board of parole officers doesn’t feel you’ve rehabilitated then boo hoo too bad for you, back to your cell for another 6 months. We can’t allow this revolving door carry on anymore.

wexie · 23-10-2018 07:56PM

Tadeo Mysterious SailboatMGS wrote: »

Well then adopt a system of parole similar to the US. If a board of parole officers doesn’t feel you’ve rehabilitated then boo hoo too bad for you, back to your cell for another 6 months. We can’t allow this revolving door carry on anymore.

Couldn't agree more, but as it stands I'm not even sure if reoffending actually even triggers suspended sentences. I've heard of many cases where people have been convicted of crimes while already serving a suspended sentence. They then get to serve both sentences concurrently. Kinda like a BOGOF

on the last post, here's a good quote from the AMA currently happening :

I'm a Psychologist, AMA wrote: »

Research tells us that punishment doesn't stop people doing bad things, it just makes them more careful about being caught. But care and compassion and helping people get their needs met in safe or legal ways will be much more powerful in reducing the odds of ongoing offending behaviour.

end of the road · 23-10-2018 07:57PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I do think there is room for improvement with the amount of subjects being offered in secondary school especially in the senior end. Maybe more trade or practical stuff could be offered that is currently being offered in college of further education.
Now I do think it's important that the subjects are realistic and you have some hope of getting work from them. There's no point of having over wishy washy thing.

yes absolutely. a lot of children aren't academic and studious and there seems to be a bit of an issue with actually recognising this and providing an alternative to pure academic education. ireland isn't the only one guilty of that mind.

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Actually it's not that complex: make certain welfare payments contingent on meeting reasonable expectations (looking for work for JSA, children attending school for child benefit, working poor at top of housing list etc) and impose proportionate punishments for criminality, particularly repeat offenders.

Within a generation you'd disincentize a large amount of the traveling community (and many others) from the lifestyle that keeps them less educated, less healthy, more suicidal, more incarcerated, more violent and less employed than the settled community.

Of course this would require hard work from the state and cost political capital (in sustained attack from the quango sector) for any government. So it's easier to keep things going as a taxpayer funded free for all that fails both communities. Easier that is until voters demand better.

i have a feeling that the more likely reason it won't happen is that it would likely be unworkable and is unlikely to incentivise anything.

tuxy · 23-10-2018 08:02PM

Tadeo Mysterious SailboatMGS wrote: »

If judges started handing down custodial sentences to people like her on their first or second offence then they’d soon start learning to behave.

It's been done in other countries and has made the situation worse. What would we do different?

Tadeo Mysterious SailboatMGS wrote: »

Well then adopt a system of parole similar to the US. If a board of parole officers doesn’t feel you’ve rehabilitated then boo hoo too bad for you, back to your cell for another 6 months. We can’t allow this revolving door carry on anymore.

So copy the American system and increase our incarceration rates and crime rates simultaneously?

fritzelly · 23-10-2018 08:13PM

'you know what, this really sucks, I shouldn't have ended up in here. But now that I'm here I'm going to use every resource available to me to make sure that I won't have to come back'

She already said she knew it was stupid and won't do it again, no point going to jail to learn the lesson.

wexie · 23-10-2018 08:16PM

fritzelly wrote: »

She already said she knew it was stupid and won't do it again, no point going to jail to learn the lesson.

Well....no offence to her but I for one won't be holding my breath.

Wonder is Paddy Power giving any odds, I'm not a gambler but that'd be worth a punt...

And I should probably add that I don't actually care how she learns her lesson, just as long as she does.

Gatling · 23-10-2018 08:19PM

wexie wrote: »

Well....no offence to her but I for one won't be holding my breath.

Wonder is Paddy Power giving any odds, I'm not a gambler but that'd be worth a punt...

Shure isn't it cultural theft

fritzelly · 23-10-2018 08:24PM

I re-edited the post with the sarcasm font

wexie · 23-10-2018 08:26PM

fritzelly wrote: »

I re-edited the post with the sarcasm font

There's a special font? Why didn't I know about this? :eek:

Effects · 23-10-2018 08:31PM

fritzelly wrote: »

She already said she knew it was stupid and won't do it again, no point going to jail to learn the lesson.

That's what you're supposed to say. So the judge goes easier on you.
The majority of people before the judge don't mean it.
She's already been on the radio and disregarded 37 of her previous convictions as not being real crimes.
She's only sorry she was caught tbh.

fritzelly · 23-10-2018 08:36PM

Effects wrote: »

She's only sorry she was caught tbh.

As are most criminals

tuxy · 23-10-2018 08:36PM

How did she get away with claiming the other crimes were harmless? It's well known that she also assisted in the burglary of peoples homes in Enniscorty.

23-10-2018 08:48PM

tuxy wrote: »

It's been done in other countries and has made the situation worse. What would we do different?

So copy the American system and increase our incarceration rates and crime rates simultaneously?

I’d like to see proof America’s crime rates have risen as a direct causation of increased incarceration rates.

Effects · 23-10-2018 08:51PM

tuxy wrote: »

How did she get away with claiming the other crimes were harmless? It's well known that she also assisted in the burglary of peoples homes in Enniscorty.

She said she had no prior convictions. Then when asked about the previous convictions reported in the press she shrugged the majority of them off as only being driving offences.

Transcript of the segment on 98FM:

AK: You've a load of previous convictions Margaret, have you learned your lesson?

MC: I don't have a load of previous convictions...for shop lifting. I've one, one, one shop lifting charge.
I have other previous convictions and they're all road traffic offences. They're all road traffic offences, every one of them.

She was charged and convicted of handling stolen goods in 2017, from a burglary in 2013. This hardly counts as shop lifting.

tuxy · 23-10-2018 08:57PM

Effects wrote: »

She said she had no prior convictions. Then when asked about the previous convictions reported in the press she shrugged them off as only being driving offences.

I guess she thinks driving to someones home to liberate the contents is a driving convictions but how did this get past the person interviewing her?

Effects · 23-10-2018 08:57PM

Tadeo Mysterious SailboatMGS wrote: »

I’d like to see proof America’s crime rates have risen as a direct causation of increased incarceration rates.

wexie · 23-10-2018 08:58PM

Tadeo Mysterious SailboatMGS wrote: »

I’d like to see proof America’s crime rates have risen as a direct causation of increased incarceration rates.

You won't, the proof is that they haven't gone down despite the increased incarceration rates.

Unless of course you want to argue that they would be higher still without those rates?

'just' deciding to start sticking more people in prison is like sticking a plaster on a festering wound, looks good, makes it seem like you're doing something worthwhile but doesn't actually achieve anything. If anything it takes away attention from the real problems.

Unless of course you want to just stick them in prison and leave them there. Which I guess would be kind of a solution. While there are certainly people in our country for whom I don't think that would be unreasonable I wouldn't classify Margaret Cash as one just yet.

VonZan · 23-10-2018 08:59PM

tuxy wrote: »

How did she get away with claiming the other crimes were harmless? It's well known that she also assisted in the burglary of peoples homes in Enniscorty.

Women tend to get away with it a lot more due to children being involved, at least that's my experience. Gardai won't even press charges most of the time, even for repeat offenders.

tuxy · 23-10-2018 09:06PM

VonZan wrote: »

Women tend to get away with it a lot more due to children being involved, at least that's my experience. Gardai won't even press charges most of the time, even for repeat offenders.

I understand how that court case went for her as it was reported in the papers.
But how did she claim to an interviewer that stealing from someones house is harmless but doing the same in Penny's was stupid?

givyjoe · 23-10-2018 09:08PM

fritzelly wrote: »

She already said she knew it was stupid and won't do it again, no point going to jail to learn the lesson.

Having an absolute laugh.

ThunbergsAreGo · 23-10-2018 09:11PM

Why do travellers have their own budget?

Do we have one for the Polish etc?

23-10-2018 09:13PM

naughtb4 wrote: »

Why do travellers have their own budget?

Do we have one for the Polish etc?

something something ethnic minority something something poor craters

Uncharted · 23-10-2018 09:44PM

Absolute scum of the highest order...

What a country. What a system.

Calhoun · 23-10-2018 10:10PM

tuxy wrote: »

It's been done in other countries and has made the situation worse. What would we do different?

So copy the American system and increase our incarceration rates and crime rates simultaneously?

So does crime not happen if we don't convict people? The whole argument seems to be that if we just don't acknowledge crime exists then it wont.

Again i would like to know that if we aren't going to follow a crime a punishment model of society what are we going to do?

wexie · 23-10-2018 10:33PM

Calhoun wrote: »

So does crime not happen if we don't convict people?

Of course it does and of course it will.

Calhoun wrote: »

The whole argument seems to be that if we just don't acknowledge crime exists then it wont.

No that's not the argument, the argument is that punishment alone doesn't stop people from committing crimes, it just makes them more serious about not getting caught.

Calhoun wrote: »

Again i would like to know that if we aren't going to follow a crime a punishment model of society what are we going to do?

How about a crime preventing model of society? Or at least a preventing of reoffending?

Look at the countries with the lowest crime rates (in the West that is, don't start bringing up KSA or something like that, nobody wants to go to that model) are they locking people up more and longer and under more brutal conditions? Or are they looking at why people are committing these crimes and trying to address those issues?

And believe me it's not that I don't think there are a lot of people out there that need punishing, it's just that it's been proven time and time again it doesn't actually achieve anything long term. Look at how many young scrotes come before the courts, they get a suspended sentence, slap on the wrist and back to the same life they came from. No additional support, no education. They're sure as hell not getting it at home either. They're likely to end up being old scrotes raising a new generation of young scrotes unless something new gets tried.

(I'm probably a bit of an oddity in supporting this because I also still believe there are people that just can't be helped to be better people and I'd be quite happy to dump them all in a prison colony on one of the Islands but I do think that the majority of people can somehow be taught to be better. )

Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

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