Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

lawred2 · 22-10-2018 1:49pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The CBI issuing a warning:

CBI director general Carolyn Fairbairn said: “Unless a withdrawal agreement is locked down by December, firms will press the button on their contingency plans. Jobs will be lost and supply chains moved.

...

She added: “Many firms won’t publicise these decisions, yet their impact will show in lower GDP years down the line.

Waste of time. Only people listening to such claims are those that believe them already and are expecting them.

The rest will wave it away as another 'Project Fear' story

First Up · 22-10-2018 2:03pm

lawred2 wrote:

Waste of time. Only people listening to such claims are those that believe them already and are expecting them.

The rest will wave it away as another 'Project Fear' story

The problem is that the latter group depend on the former for their jobs.

Professor Moriarty · 22-10-2018 2:09pm

In all of this lunacy, in the latest YouGov poll, May (38%) continues to be more popular than Corbyn (24%) and Labour have dropped a percentage point to 36% while the Tories remain at 41%. Corbyn is an absolute disaster for Labour and Britain.

Leroy42 · 22-10-2018 2:09pm

First Up wrote: »

The problem is that the latter group depend on the former for their jobs.

Doesn't seem to matter. The likes of the head of Toyota (maybe it was Nissan) stating that any reductions in the frictionless border will lead to reduction in investment are met with incredulity and claims of bias and fear mongering.

You have MP's openly calling into question whether the CEO's of massive multi-billion UK based factories have any real idea what they are talking about and they are simply using Brexit as an excuse to cover up their bad performance.

Facts are disregarded. As that is fine as currently a lot of what is being talked about, ie reduction in investment etc, is not a fact but opinions. But there seemingly is not difference given between experts in the field and some guy who bought a car in Germany once. They are treated as equals.

It is why Brexit has been allowed get as far as it has. No actual facts, just some vague talking points and a position that can be changed to suit whatever narrative is required.

McGiver · 22-10-2018 2:16pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

A bit OT for this thread perhaps but, gosh, no, Naziism is not centrist; nor was it perceived to be so in the 1920s and 30s when it was competing with other political philosophies. It's strongly authoritarian and ultra-nationalist, and completely rejects the centrist notion of a balance between the individual, groups within society, and society as a whole. For Naziism it's all about the Volk, end of.

If anything, Italian Fascism would be a bit closer to political centre (though that's not saying very much) with it's vocationalist elements.

Sorry for OT, but I meant "economically centrist".

Here you go:

McGiver · 22-10-2018 2:20pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

In all of this lunacy, in the latest YouGov poll, May (38%) continues to be more popular than Corbyn (24%) and Labour have dropped a percentage point to 36% while the Tories remain at 41%. Corbyn is an absolute disaster for Labour and Britain.

How is this possible? Tory voters think there is a chance to get someone "a harder Brexiteer" than May so they stick to them? Undecided prefer Tories out of fear of Carbyn? I just can't explain this, it makes no sense, this has been the worst UK government since long time.

demfad · 22-10-2018 2:23pm

McGiver wrote: »

Good article and it posits rightly that fascism is a marriage of corporations and the state. You could argue that this is the reality in the US. Or that they are not very far from a complete corporate takeover of the state.

Note that Nazism and Fascism are quite different. Nazism is politically rather centrist with socialist elements, fascism proper is more right-wing. Pinochet's regime is good example of fascism, it was fantastic for "the markets" and the big corporations. Not so great for the people as human rights go.

Yes. In the US GOP gerrymandering has been around for a long time and now arguably facilitates minority Government. The southern strategy has alwyas used racial polarization to get votes which is a fascist tactic. The Formation of RW religious groups such as the Council for National Policy, Conservative think tanks like the Heritage foundation, Cato Institute etc to promite right wing policies and oppose global warming ideas becoming mainstream. We have seen the rise of the far-right slowly since the late eighties.
If the democratic checks on Free market capitalism fail maybe fascism is the inevitable endpoint? Media gets bought and used to promote the agenda (Murdoch).
It is not a coincidence that the two most open of free market countries end up with these fascist tendencies. The massive propaganda and distortion potential of social media makes it a unique threat to democracy. Add in authoritarian States ability in this environment to influence these ideas and divisions and you get where we are. The need to concede western social democracy died with the USSR and communist threat. Now Russia is pushing instead of fighting.

BonnieSituation · 22-10-2018 2:23pm

Hurrache wrote: »

The DUP, unsurprisingly, have said they're backing the amendment that will make any backstop illegal.

Good. The closer the wall gets to their backs the better.

Professor Moriarty · 22-10-2018 3:16pm

McGiver wrote: »

How is this possible? Tory voters think there is a chance to get someone "a harder Brexiteer" than May so they stick to them? Undecided prefer Tories out of fear of Carbyn? I just can't explain this, it makes no sense, this has been the worst UK government since long time.

Brexit issues aside, Corbyn is a disaster. His policies are too far left for most people. He lacks charisma. He's a poor debater. The vast majority of his MPs don't want him as leader. It's not that people want the Tories so much as they don't want Corbyn. If they had, for instance, Keir Starmer as leader then Labour would be a shoe in.

ancapailldorcha · 22-10-2018 3:23pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Brexit issues aside, Corbyn is a disaster. His policies are too far left for most people. He lacks charisma. He's a poor debater. The vast majority of his MPs don't want him as leader. It's not that people want the Tories so much as they don't want Corbyn. If they had, for instance, Keir Starmer as leader then Labour would be a shoe in.

Corbyn is enabling the current mess while his associates actively sabotaged the Labour Remain campaign. As you say, a centrist would have gotten the party into government in 2017. Then again, May might not have called the election if she were facing Keir Starmer or Chuka Ummuna.

He was on Andrew Marr recently and couldn't bring himself to call an anti-Semitic painting he was shown anti-Semitic, instead dancing around the issue. He's not a leader, he is a protest vote who has tapped into an unreliable voting demographic. I think he is a much more erudite and capable debater than he is given credit for though that may be down to the poor expectations fomented by the media, such as it is.

The UK is facing its biggest crisis since the second world war and while it may be a crisis they made themselves with appalling economic management of much of their territory culminating in a disastrous binary referendum to solve a hugely complex issue simply for the sake of the unity of the ruling party, it remains a significant crisis nonetheless for not just the UK but also Europe, especially Ireland.

The UK needs leadership. Jeremy Corbyn is not a man who can provide that and the electorate know it.

McGiver · 22-10-2018 3:34pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Brexit issues aside, Corbyn is a disaster. His policies are too far left for most people. He lacks charisma. He's a poor debater. The vast majority of his MPs don't want him as leader. It's not that people want the Tories so much as they don't want Corbyn. If they had, for instance, Keir Starmer as leader then Labour would be a shoe in.

I personally would like Starmer as the Labour leader. And I think all centre-left voters in the UK, even those who would vote Lib dems, would too. Could take good few percent off the moderate, not eurosceptic Tory voters too.

Leonard Hofstadter · 22-10-2018 3:40pm

There's plenty of good people in the UK Labour party, Starmer, Umuna and my personal favourite, Yvette Cooper. British Labour's woes started when they picked the wrong Miliband to replace Brown, had David been in charge they would have won the 2015 election and the rest would have been history.

Rhineshark · 22-10-2018 3:44pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Brexit issues aside, Corbyn is a disaster. His policies are too far left for most people. He lacks charisma. He's a poor debater. The vast majority of his MPs don't want him as leader. It's not that people want the Tories so much as they don't want Corbyn. If they had, for instance, Keir Starmer as leader then Labour would be a shoe in.

Thing is though, they're not. His policies being too far left, that is. The impression is certainly given that they are unpopular, but when offered in Labour's manifesto, discussed without Corbyn's name or offered by the Tories pretending they came up with them, they tend to do well.

I think not really knowing where Corbyn stands gives the impression of dishonesty to both aggravated Remainers and contemptuous Brexiters. Whiiich I can't really argue with tbh. At least with Johnson or Starmer, you might not *like* where they stand but you damn well know where it is.

Similar to May, Corbyn. The closet Remainer leading the bat**** leave party and the closet Brexiter leading the More Or Less Remain party.

Charisma - unsure, I've heard he is actually very charismatic and let's just say there weren't crowds singing Oh Theresa May (and not only because it doesn't scan), but I have no real personal frame of reference.

Debater - he's fairly woeful on PMQs. He should be able to have May's head on a pike within five minutes but it's like he's flailing a goldfish at her for all the use it is. Doesn't chase up questions, when he has her bang to rights he'll wander off onto another topic rather than corner her. Is it because he doesn't want to convince people regarding Brexit either? Not sure what he's like on non-brexit topics, if such even exist in Westminster anymore.

Leadership - well, he seems to keep surviving. I would be very dubious in being too sure what "the majority" is in Labour at the moment tbh. Easy enough to keep track of the Tories, often by following the trail of blood until you find where Gove is, but Labour are a bit more subtle. Or at least, don't have as much press fixated on their every internal squabble.

I'd be all in favour of Starmer getting in and at leadt it would be a clear choice for or against a guy who has stuck his banner into the ground rather than figuring out which is Corbyn's actual banner and what's a false flag.

Enzokk · 22-10-2018 3:50pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

In all of this lunacy, in the latest YouGov poll, May (38%) continues to be more popular than Corbyn (24%) and Labour have dropped a percentage point to 36% while the Tories remain at 41%. Corbyn is an absolute disaster for Labour and Britain.

I think it has become clear he is not the messiah, he is just another politician that will say and do what he wants only that he looks "funny" and supported things that the voting public hated during the Thatcher years. They see a 1980s Corbyn standing with the strikers and it is hard to support him when you didn't support him in the past.

McGiver wrote: »

How is this possible? Tory voters think there is a chance to get someone "a harder Brexiteer" than May so they stick to them? Undecided prefer Tories out of fear of Carbyn? I just can't explain this, it makes no sense, this has been the worst UK government since long time.

Did you see what he was tweeting about this weekend? He and his supporters were reminiscing about Chile and twenty years ago. That was very admirable from Corbyn and he usually is on the right side of history, yet on Brexit he is on the wrong side and this is what is hurting him.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Corbyn is enabling the current mess while his associates actively sabotaged the Labour Remain campaign. As you say, a centrist would have gotten the party into government in 2017. Then again, May might not have called the election if she were facing Keir Starmer or Chuka Ummuna.

He was on Andrew Marr recently and couldn't bring himself to call an anti-Semitic painting he was shown anti-Semitic, instead dancing around the issue. He's not a leader, he is a protest vote who has tapped into an unreliable voting demographic. I think he is a much more erudite and capable debater than he is given credit for though that may be down to the poor expectations fomented by the media, such as it is.

The UK is facing its biggest crisis since the second world war and while it may be a crisis they made themselves with appalling economic management of much of their territory culminating in a disastrous binary referendum to solve a hugely complex issue simply for the sake of the unity of the ruling party, it remains a significant crisis nonetheless for not just the UK but also Europe, especially Ireland.

The UK needs leadership. Jeremy Corbyn is not a man who can provide that and the electorate know it.

I am still baffled by some of the behaviour of him and his followers this weekend. If they weren't ignoring the march they were denigrating it or making fun of it. His supporters in the Labour party really has become a cult. James O'Brien has been unfairly critical of him sometimes, but he saw this cult a lot sooner than I did. As you mention there is the whole anti-semitism feeling around him. I am no supporter of Israel and wholly believe in the right of Palestine to exist as their own country but even I am shaking my head at the way he just refuses to see what is there.

This weekend march was the bread and butter of Labour supporters and we had their leader ignore the march and his supporters, who while they have have been magnificent in their work in getting the youth enthused about politics and their support for social issues, blindly follow their leader in supporting Brexit.

If there is an election and Jeremy Corbyn is elected it will be due to the circumstances and not his policies. He has come at the right time for a leader of the opposition, after 8 years of the other party being in charge and their policies making a mess of it. And yet still I can see a government that will need a coalition if there was an election, even with the mess of a Conservative party. It really isn't reflecting well on Corbyn at all now.

ancapailldorcha · 22-10-2018 3:58pm

Rhineshark wrote: »

Thing is though, they're not. His policies being too far left, that is. The impression is certainly given that they are unpopular, but when offered in Labour's manifesto, discussed without Corbyn's name or offered by the Tories pretending they came up with them, they tend to do well.

Of course but in any election, they'll be linked to both Corbyn and Labour. Remeber the cap on heating bills? That was Ed Miliband and it got pinched by Theresa May.

Rhineshark wrote: »

I think not really knowing where Corbyn stands gives the impression of dishonesty to both aggravated Remainers and contemptuous Brexiters. Whiiich I can't really argue with tbh. At least with Johnson or Starmer, you might not *like* where they stand but you damn well know where it is.

Similar to May, Corbyn. The closet Remainer leading the bat**** leave party and the closet Brexiter leading the More Or Less Remain party.

Corbyn is enjoying the luxury of constructive ambiguity. All he has to do is to wait for things to get worse under May and then play pin the tail on the Conservatives in 2022 if the Tories and the DUP make it that far. He has no incentive to help them at all but he will at some point have to reckon with the two halves in his party who are kept together by their mutual dislike of the Tories. Liberal Metropolitan middle class students and working class northerners want mutually exclusive things. This can't be ignored when Labour gain power.

On the whole "closet remainer" thing, I don't buy it. May gave one speech in favour of Remain but couldn't help herself and threw in the tens of thousands nonsense. I think she is a true convert who did vote remain but now sees leaving as an opportunity to enact her authoritarian, right wing policies free from ECJ and EU interference. The Snooper's Charter was her handiwork, remember.

Rhineshark wrote: »

Charisma - unsure, I've heard he is actually very charismatic and let's just say there weren't crowds singing Oh Theresa May (and not only because it doesn't scan), but I have no real personal frame of reference.

I mean, it's subjective but I found him to be a much better debater and speaker than May in the run up to GE 2017. Mind you, they never actually debated each other which was a disgrace but he held his own very well in front of hostile questions from the audience.

Rhineshark wrote: »

Debater - he's fairly woeful on PMQs. He should be able to have May's head on a pike within five minutes but it's like he's flailing a goldfish at her for all the use it is. Doesn't chase up questions, when he has her bang to rights he'll wander off onto another topic rather than corner her. Is it because he doesn't want to convince people regarding Brexit either? Not sure what he's like on non-brexit topics, if such even exist in Westminster anymore.

Leadership - well, he seems to keep surviving. I would be very dubious in being too sure what "the majority" is in Labour at the moment tbh. Easy enough to keep track of the Tories, often by following the trail of blood until you find where Gove is, but Labour are a bit more subtle. Or at least, don't have as much press fixated on their every internal squabble.

I'd be all in favour of Starmer getting in and at leadt it would be a clear choice for or against a guy who has stuck his banner into the ground rather than figuring out which is Corbyn's actual banner and what's a false flag.

I don't watch PMQ's. I find it too tedious and don't really see the point.

Corbyn will either be PM directly or one of his proteges will be PM if for no reason than people will get fed up of the Tories. It's the pendulum effect and we've had the Tories for nearly a decade now and they've nothing to show for their tenure.

Enzokk · 22-10-2018 3:58pm

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

There's plenty of good people in the UK Labour party, Starmer, Umuna and my personal favourite, Yvette Cooper. British Labour's woes started when they picked the wrong Miliband to replace Brown, had David been in charge they would have won the 2015 election and the rest would have been history.

This is always said about Labour that the wrong Miliband was elected leader, but at the time David was Tony Blair's Labour. He was with Blair all the way, from the good to the absolutely terrible and he would have been hit by same accusations that Ed got hit with, only this time he was in the cabinet when the disaster of the financial crash unfolded and crucially the Iraq war.

Labour needed a change from the Blair at the time. They couldn't just elect another one of them and expected an uptick of their performance in the polls.

ancapailldorcha · 22-10-2018 4:08pm

Enzokk wrote: »

I am still baffled by some of the behaviour of him and his followers this weekend. If they weren't ignoring the march they were denigrating it or making fun of it. His supporters in the Labour party really has become a cult. James O'Brien has been unfairly critical of him sometimes, but he saw this cult a lot sooner than I did. As you mention there is the whole anti-semitism feeling around him. I am no supporter of Israel and wholly believe in the right of Palestine to exist as their own country but even I am shaking my head at the way he just refuses to see what is there.

This weekend march was the bread and butter of Labour supporters and we had their leader ignore the march and his supporters, who while they have have been magnificent in their work in getting the youth enthused about politics and their support for social issues, blindly follow their leader in supporting Brexit.

If there is an election and Jeremy Corbyn is elected it will be due to the circumstances and not his policies. He has come at the right time for a leader of the opposition, after 8 years of the other party being in charge and their policies making a mess of it. And yet still I can see a government that will need a coalition if there was an election, even with the mess of a Conservative party. It really isn't reflecting well on Corbyn at all now.

I think he's genuinely principled and has actually fought for great causes in his day. The issue is that it was all protesting and activism, not leadership. He's used to like minds holding the same views about the same things. The principles end, however when it comes to the possibility of power and he's not going to jeopardise this by holding May to account on Brexit as doing so in any meaningful way would mean supporting a People's Vote given the mess the Conservatives have made of it.

The weekend was a golden opportunity for him to show real opposition to the government in front of likely hundreds of thousands of Labour voters and members. It's fantastic he stood up for Chileans under Pinochet, whom Thatcher thanks for fighting for freedom but as above, it's protesting and not leading.

I don't know enough about the Israel-Palestine conflict to hold an opinion on it. I think that this is beneficial in this instance in that I have no biases when dismissing or emphasizing anti-Semitism on Corbyn's part. I'd be reluctant to go around branding him an anti-Semite but it seems to be dirt that never seems to come completely off.

I'm not really sure how a coalition would work with the Tories to be honest. The Lib Dems are still in the wilderness while the centre has collapsed. I can't see the SNP being too willing unless they get another IndyRef as a concession and no Tory wants to be remembered for breaking up the United Kingdom. UKIP has become the party of nasty, ethnic nationalism that Farage effectively steered it away from.

Leroy42 · 22-10-2018 4:11pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't watch PMQ's. I find it too tedious and don't really see the point.

TBH, with the weakness of TM and the crapfest that is Brexit together with the completely divided party that she 'leads' PMQ's really should be weekly viewing for anyone interested in politics even if purely to see a PM get eviscerate on a weekly basis.

That it is, and I totally agree with you, tedious and pointless, is entirely down to his complete lack of ability and suits TM down to the ground.

Yvette Cooper, for example, in the few committee meetings, has showed much better command of her brief and has left TM looking foolish and clueless.

That Corbyn has hardly been able to do that throughout his leadership tells you all you need to know.

McGiver · 22-10-2018 4:32pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think he's genuinely principled and has actually fought for great causes in his day. The issue is that it was all protesting and activism, not leadership. He's used to like minds holding the same views about the same things. The principles end, however when it comes to the possibility of power and he's not going to jeopardise this by holding May to account on Brexit as doing so in any meaningful way would mean supporting a People's Vote given the mess the Conservatives have made of it.

The weekend was a golden opportunity for him to show real opposition to the government in front of likely hundreds of thousands of Labour voters and members. It's fantastic he stood up for Chileans under Pinochet, whom Thatcher thanks for fighting for freedom but as above, it's protesting and not leading.

I don't know enough about the Israel-Palestine conflict to hold an opinion on it. I think that this is beneficial in this instance in that I have no biases when dismissing or emphasizing anti-Semitism on Corbyn's part. I'd be reluctant to go around branding him an anti-Semite but it seems to be dirt that never seems to come completely off.

I'm not really sure how a coalition would work with the Tories to be honest. The Lib Dems are still in the wilderness while the centre has collapsed. I can't see the SNP being too willing unless they get another IndyRef as a concession and no Tory wants to be remembered for breaking up the United Kingdom. UKIP has become the party of nasty, ethnic nationalism that Farage effectively steered it away from.

The question is why Starmer or Ummuna don't try ousting Corbyn. They should have done it a long time ago. Ummuna was quite visible at the march, is he preparing to make the move?

Imreoir2 · 22-10-2018 4:54pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

If anything, Italian Fascism would be a bit closer to political centre (though that's not saying very much) with it's vocationalist elements.

Italian Fascism was nothing more than a tool for the personal power of its leader. It had no ideology beyond power and squad violence, Mussolini said as much himself. They published volumes of "definative fascist doctrine" and if you were to read it you would find that it contained no principles that were not directly contradicted somewhere else in the same publications. It was intentially all things to all people. You want Italy to be a great imperial power? Fascism is for you, you want to see international imperialism smashed? Fascism is yer only man. Hate the Jews? Fascism is the answer. Hate the Germans? Join the Fascist party. Il Duce will make Italy a great military power and lay waste to Italy's rivals while ensureing peace and prosperity in Europe. Italy will aquire an Empire and defend the freedom of small nations. It was very 1984, but far more cynical, they neither demanded nor really expected to be believed. They did not need to be believed as long as they could control access to the truth and use the cudgel and castor oil against any opposition.

ArmaniJeanss · 22-10-2018 4:57pm

Think I said before that PMQs (specifically who 'won'?) is pretty much always subjective.
Like browse the Guardians last few reports on it here and you'll see 'All too easy for Corbyn as Maybot reduced to babble', 'PMQs verdict : Corbyn shreds Mays conference promises', 'quizmaster Corbyn leaves May flummoxed' as some of the positive headlines.
(and hell the Guardian ain't no member of the Corbynista fan club and there are some negative headlines also)

But doubtless the Express would have headlined my examples as 'May DESTROYS Corbyn with this GREAT riposte' and suchlike.

Unless someone breaks down and cries there's never a real winner.

Hurrache · 22-10-2018 4:57pm

Are we back to square one all over again re the backstop?
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1054399522741329920

And a bit of cakeism?
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1054398888025690112

Professor Moriarty · 22-10-2018 4:57pm

McGiver wrote: »

The question is why Starmer or Ummuna don't try ousting Corbyn. They should have done it a long time ago. Ummuna was quite visible at the march, is he preparing to make the move?

I think Momentum has a lot to answer for. It wields power way beyond its size not least because its members are zealots relative to the ordinary Labour member.

ancapailldorcha · 22-10-2018 5:02pm

McGiver wrote: »

The question is why Starmer or Ummuna don't try ousting Corbyn. They should have done it a long time ago. Ummuna was quite visible at the march, is he preparing to make the move?

He won 59.5% of the vote in 2015 when he was first elected leader. He increased that to 61.8% when he ran against Owen Smith in 2016.

The centrists see that he's effectively invincible so another failed challenge will accomplish nothing but irk Momentum which is already pushing for deselection of MP's it disagrees with though hopefully Kate Hoey might find herself on their hit list.

Dyr · 22-10-2018 5:04pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think Momentum has a lot to answer for. It wields power way beyond its size not least because its members are zealots relative to the ordinary Labour member.

I think the same could be said about Labours parliamentary party and HQ from Blairs era onwards, they became increasingly distant from their voters and their membership

Corybns problem is that he's a well meaning do-gooder, The Brits generally don't like that type in charge of things like defence, law etc. Too afraid to make unpleasant decisions.

trellheim · 22-10-2018 5:50pm

Steve Baker has withdrawn the NI bill amendments https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1054391914072629249

He's nearly the most hardline of all the ERG . I wonder what circle was squared there. Very very interesting.

My amendments to the NI (Executive Formation etc) Bill could only be voted upon by amending its emergency programming

I’m persuaded this would not be in the public interest: I have withdrawn them

The substantive issues of the Union remain of concern

Strazdas · 22-10-2018 6:13pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Italian Fascism was nothing more than a tool for the personal power of its leader. It had no ideology beyond power and squad violence, Mussolini said as much himself. They published volumes of "definative fascist doctrine" and if you were to read it you would find that it contained no principles that were not directly contradicted somewhere else in the same publications. It was intentially all things to all people. You want Italy to be a great imperial power? Fascism is for you, you want to see international imperialism smashed? Fascism is yer only man. Hate the Jews? Fascism is the answer. Hate the Germans? Join the Fascist party. Il Duce will make Italy a great military power and lay waste to Italy's rivals while ensureing peace and prosperity in Europe. Italy will aquire an Empire and defend the freedom of small nations. It was very 1984, but far more cynical, they neither demanded nor really expected to be believed. They did not need to be believed as long as they could control access to the truth and use the cudgel and castor oil against any opposition.

As was Nazism in fact. One historian (I think it might have been the German writer Joachim Fest) pointed out that Nazism was a very negative and destructive ideology, concerned primarily with tearing things down and that Hitler was no empire builder (despite outward appearances).

A constant theme in Hitler's and Goebbels speeches were the words 'destroy', 'destruction' and 'annihilation', almost giving the game away.

Enzokk · 22-10-2018 7:19pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not really sure how a coalition would work with the Tories to be honest. The Lib Dems are still in the wilderness while the centre has collapsed. I can't see the SNP being too willing unless they get another IndyRef as a concession and no Tory wants to be remembered for breaking up the United Kingdom. UKIP has become the party of nasty, ethnic nationalism that Farage effectively steered it away from.

I wasn't thinking about a Tory coalition. If any party had sense they would stay away from a coalition with the Tories as the example of the Libdems should have made all parties run away. They were blamed for all the wrongs of what happened with the government and all their policies that were enacted that were half decent were seized upon by the government as their own. Unsurprisingly they said before the last election, I think, that they would only go into a coalition with the Conservatives. As I said any party with sense...

I was thinking about Labour only getting in with support from the SNP. I still think there is a good chance they will destroy the Tories in an election, but with the way they have not seized the momentum now they risk losing their shot. I think a lot of people would have sat up and be concerned at the conference where there was a debate on should they support a second referendum. Maybe he isn't sincere when he says he wants to return Labour to the members when on this point he is not embracing what they want.

J Mysterio · 22-10-2018 10:00pm

UK will not renege on Irish border backstop deal, says Bradley

Minister says government is committed to everything it agreed to last December

Rhineshark · 22-10-2018 10:40pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

UK will not renege on Irish border backstop deal, says Bradley

Minister says government is committed to everything it agreed to last December

????

Argh, my head. Will these people stop lying for five minutes or at least pick a consistent lie!

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Comments