How much wattage to charge up an EV?

Andy From Sligo · 01-10-2018 6:24pm #1

take a Nissan Leaf for example - if you plug it into your home how many watts does it consume as its charging the batteries?

also what happens if you have a long power outage (sometimes with some people lasting a couple of days) , say like in a storm, and you have to charge up your vehicle ? - how do you get by?

n97 mini · 01-10-2018 6:43pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

take a Nissan Leaf for example - if you plug it into your home how many watts does it consume as its charging the batteries?

At home:
Granny cable (aka 13-pin plug) = 2.2kw
Home charge point = 3.3kw
Home charge point, if supported by car and charge point = 6.6kw (some Leafs), 7.2kw for others like i3 and Ioniq.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

also what happens if you have a long power outage (sometimes with some people lasting a couple of days) , say like in a storm, and you have to charge up your vehicle ? - how do you get by?

If you have no electricity you can't charge. You'd need to get a generator or drive to somewhere that has electricity.

Andy From Sligo · 01-10-2018 7:44pm

n97 mini wrote: »

At home:
Granny cable (aka 13-pin plug) = 2.2kw
Home charge point = 3.3kw
Home charge point, if supported by car and charge point = 6.6kw (some Leafs), 7.2kw for others like i3 and Ioniq.

If you have no electricity you can't charge. You'd need to get a generator or drive to somewhere that has electricity.

thanks for that - thats quite high wattage .

- and if your talking most home/small industrial petrol generators that would be pushing most of them to the limit wouldnt it?

KCross · 01-10-2018 8:19pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

also what happens if you have a long power outage (sometimes with some people lasting a couple of days) , say like in a storm, and you have to charge up your vehicle ? - how do you get by?

Go to a rapid charger on the public network..
https://www.esb.ie/our-businesses/ecars/charge-point-map

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

- and if your talking most home/small industrial petrol generators that would be pushing most of them to the limit wouldnt it?

EV's can charge as low as 6A (1.3kW) so a small generator would handle that. Some EV's dont like small generators though if they are not properly earthed.

ELM327 · 02-10-2018 8:42am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thanks for that - thats quite high wattage .

- and if your talking most home/small industrial petrol generators that would be pushing most of them to the limit wouldnt it?

I just googled domestic generator and while most were in the 2kva range this one is 6.7kva so should be perfectly capable of charging even a 32a Ioniq/i3

https://ige.ie/neilsen-6-7kva-silent-diesel-generator-electric-start/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwrszdBRDWARIsAEEYhrdPiB1PAwinXn-F1zW2ccMQHVD7jgy4Ngpt_iweiBfCnivLU86JKqkaAkAgEALw_wcB

unkel · 02-10-2018 9:06am

KCross wrote: »

EV's can charge as low as 6A (1.3kW) so a small generator would handle that. Some EV's dont like small generators though if they are not properly earthed.

Toying with the idea of picking up a cheap second hand petrol genny. You sometimes see a Parkside (Lidl) 1200W come up for around €50-€100. It looks like a very capable genny, from some research. I wonder how tight the 6A minimum is. 6A * 240v = 1440W, so well over the 1200W peak of the Parkside. Would it charge an EV at all? It has continuous output of 1000W, with peak of 1200W

I'd get one just for having it. Probably never get to use it as in the 18 years in the house, we only ever had 1 powercut that lasted more than a couple of hours. And I could use the car to run an emergency electricity supply to the house. Probably never use it for charging the car either. But you never know.

ELM327 wrote: »

I just googled domestic generator and while most were in the 2kva range this one is 6.7kva so should be perfectly capable of charging even a 32a Ioniq/i3

https://ige.ie/neilsen-6-7kva-silent-diesel-generator-electric-start/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwrszdBRDWARIsAEEYhrdPiB1PAwinXn-F1zW2ccMQHVD7jgy4Ngpt_iweiBfCnivLU86JKqkaAkAgEALw_wcB

A massive diesel generator for massive money to charge your EV. Are you trolling ELM327?

ELM327 · 02-10-2018 9:08am

unkel wrote: »

A massive diesel generator for massive money to charge your EV. Are you trolling ELM327?

Not to charge the car solely but just to illustrate that such products exist.
Plus charging it from a generator is not going to be very cost efficient I imagine.

unkel · 02-10-2018 9:26am

KCross wrote: »

EV's can charge as low as 6A (1.3kW) so a small generator would handle that. Some EV's dont like small generators though if they are not properly earthed.

Toying with the idea of picking up a cheap second hand petrol genny. You sometimes see a Parkside (Lidl) 1200W come up for around €50-€100. It looks like a very capable genny, from some research. I wonder how tight the 6A minimum is. 6A * 240v = 1440W, so well over the 1200W peak of the Parkside. Would it charge an EV at all? It has continuous output of 1000W, with peak of 1200W

I'd get one just for having it. Probably never get to use it as in the 18 years in the house, we only ever had 1 powercut that lasted more than a couple of hours. And I could use the car to run an emergency electricity supply to the house. Probably never use it for charging the car either. But you never know.

ELM327 wrote: »

I just googled domestic generator and while most were in the 2kva range this one is 6.7kva so should be perfectly capable of charging even a 32a Ioniq/i3

https://ige.ie/neilsen-6-7kva-silent-diesel-generator-electric-start/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwrszdBRDWARIsAEEYhrdPiB1PAwinXn-F1zW2ccMQHVD7jgy4Ngpt_iweiBfCnivLU86JKqkaAkAgEALw_wcB

A massive diesel generator for massive money to charge your EV. Are you trolling ELM327?

KCross · 02-10-2018 10:47am

unkel wrote: »

Toying with the idea of picking up a cheap second hand petrol genny. You sometimes see a Parkside (Lidl) 1200W come up for around €50-€100. It looks like a very capable genny, from some research. I wonder how tight the 6A minimum is. 6A * 240v = 1440W, so well over the 1200W peak of the Parkside. Would it charge an EV at all? It has continuous output of 1000W, with peak of 1200W

My bet is that it wouldnt relaibly charge the car, if at all.

6A is the min and if it drops below that the car will stop the charge session... unless your Ioniq is different to the Leaf, which is possible.

EV's also, I believe, check the earth and it might decide to reject the power from the generator regardless of whether it is delivering 6A or not. The Zoe is known to be very fussy on that front.

I know on my own Leaf when I was bringing it back on the Ferry I asked them to give me access to a 3-pin socket and it refused to charge on it eventhough it did light up the granny cable... EV's need a good sine wave and good earth.... cheap genie's will probably fail both of those checks.

unkel · 02-10-2018 11:13am

From research the Parkside has a good pure sine wave output and you can ground your genny easily enough. But I guess you're probably right, it's too light. No point in buying one that might not even perform one of the two tasks you'd buy it for in case you ever need them

Still you could buy a 2-3kW one handily enough for about €150

Mycroft H · 02-10-2018 11:18am

unkel wrote: »

From research the Parkside has a good pure sine wave output and you can ground your genny easily enough. But I guess you're probably right, it's too light. No point in buying one that might not even perform one of the two tasks you'd buy it for in case you ever need them

Still you could buy a 2-3kW one handily enough for about €150

Stretch your budget and get a Honda 2.2kW whisper generator. Rescue group I work with has one for outdoor lighting. It rarely gets used but it always starts first time even when lying up for a little while.

ELM327 · 02-10-2018 11:23am

If/when we ever move out the country again I will be looking at buying a generator to run the house during power outages. During the last 3 years living in a country house, we had many blackouts due to storms etc.

I have ASD and suffer drastically with change in home situations and we also have a couple of reptiles and tortoises so they need constant heat too. For those reasons a generator can be an invaluable resource even if it's rarely used

unkel · 02-10-2018 11:39am

For light backup use (tv, internet, charging phone, fridge / freezer), your EV will do nicely. I've yet to find out how much amps you can draw from the aux battery of Ioniq safely (with the engine on, of course, to keep it topped up)

Obviously that won't do if you need to create heat. Pardon my ignorance, but does it do any harm for your pets to be cold for a day or so? I'd have thought being cold blooded, they could handle that?

ELM327 · 02-10-2018 11:48am

unkel wrote: »

For light backup use (tv, internet, charging phone, fridge / freezer), your EV will do nicely. I've yet to find out how much amps you can draw from the aux battery of Ioniq safely (with the engine on, of course, to keep it topped up)

Obviously that won't do if you need to create heat. Pardon my ignorance, but does it do any harm for your pets to be cold for a day or so? I'd have thought being cold blooded, they could handle that?

I havent found a way to do V2G/V2H from a non chademo car without invalidating the warranty. Even the Mirai has a chademo port for this reason.

The tortoises particularly need constant heat and humidity, our climate will make them hibernate for most of the year. (There's about the most off topic post I think the EV forum will ever see

:D)

unkel · 02-10-2018 12:03pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I havent found a way to do V2G/V2H from a non chademo car without invalidating the warranty.

Woot?

How would the manufacturer ever know if you connected an inverter with crocodile clips to your aux battery? You can buy these things in any auto shop like Halfords.

KCross · 02-10-2018 12:16pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The tortoises particularly need constant heat and humidity, our climate will make them hibernate for most of the year. (There's about the most off topic post I think the EV forum will ever see :D)

Wellll.... turtle mode in an EV is officially a tortoise if you look at the picture of it, so I think you can be afforded a little latitude on that one!

KCross · 02-10-2018 12:17pm

unkel wrote: »

Woot?

How would the manufacturer ever know if you connected an inverter with crocodile clips to your aux battery? You can buy these things in any auto shop like Halfords.

I dont think a few crocodile clips on the 12V battery could be considered V2G tech, its a little more complicated than that!

ChaDeMo supports V2G today, CCS doesnt (yet). I believe thats what ELM is referring to.

ELM327 · 02-10-2018 12:23pm

unkel wrote: »

Woot?

How would the manufacturer ever know if you connected an inverter with crocodile clips to your aux battery? You can buy these things in any auto shop like Halfords.

Exactly as kcross says, I don't think a few loose wires going to a 12v battery is quite the same as connecting the chademo connector on a leaf directly.

I think CCS2.0 is rumoured to have V2G/V2H but I may have dreamt that.

KCross wrote: »

I dont think a few crocodile clips on the 12V battery could be considered V2G tech, its a little more complicated than that!

ChaDeMo supports V2G today, CCS doesnt (yet). I believe thats what ELM is referring to.

zilog_jones · 02-10-2018 2:40pm

What's the maximum power you could reasonably get from the 12V system anyway? Maybe 200-300W or so? It couldn't be considered a realistic V2H solution really.

Both generations of the Prius PHV had an optional extra 100V AC 1500W inverter which gives you internal and external (via Type 1 adaptor) mains sockets - Japan only, of course. I think something similar is available in Japan for the Outlander PHEV - I've seen a kettle being plugged into it somehow. This stuff is a lot more marketable in such a disaster-prone country.

ELM327 · 02-10-2018 3:05pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

What's the maximum power you could reasonably get from the 12V system anyway? Maybe 200-300W or so? It couldn't be considered a realistic V2H solution really.

Both generations of the Prius PHV had an optional extra 100V AC 1500W inverter which gives you internal and external (via Type 1 adaptor) mains sockets - Japan only, of course. I think something similar is available in Japan for the Outlander PHEV - I've seen a kettle being plugged into it somehow. This stuff is a lot more marketable in such a disaster-prone country.

+1
If you see the leaf 40 for comparison, Bjorn did a video where it was powering a coffee shop trailer via Chademo V2H.

Zenith74 · 02-10-2018 3:22pm

FWIW below is the electricity usage for our house over the last 10 months. Two BEVs were added in May/June to replace two petrol cars. I'd say we were spending about €200 a month on petrol, compared to about €50 per month extra on our electricity bill now.

Electricity+Usage+with+two+BEVs.PNG

slave1 · 02-10-2018 4:14pm

unkel wrote: »

For light backup use (tv, internet, charging phone, fridge / freezer), your EV will do nicely.

Agreed, I had my eye on an inverter on Amazon for a while and when it hit the warehouse I snapped it up.
Works perfectly via 5v socket or battery if higher load.

Just hope I never have to use it now but it will keep my stove boiler pump and TV going as well as the wifi and fridge/freezer if leccie ever goes.
Just going to park my ICE car and box the L30 in as you need to have the car on to use the 12v battery as your source...

Andy From Sligo · 02-10-2018 4:30pm

how do you earth a genny by the way? - would you really have to like drive an earth rod into the ground?

unkel · 02-10-2018 4:39pm

KCross wrote: »

I dont think a few crocodile clips on the 12V battery could be considered V2G tech

I didn't mention V2H / V2G!

We were just discussing emergency backup for your home essentials here. You can use either your ICE (with the engine running) or your EV (switched on) for this

zilog_jones wrote: »

What's the maximum power you could reasonably get from the 12V system anyway? Maybe 200-300W or so?

I'd like to think it's a lot more than that. But even with just 300W you can keep all the essentials I mentioned up and running. My own ancient inverter is that, just 300W

Iirc both the Leaf and BMW i3 can handle 80A off the aux battery. That's nearly a kilowatt!!! I haven't seen figures for Ioniq. I also doubt you can get anything like that from an ICE as I suspect the alternator wouldn't be powerful enough to keep up with that.

ELM327 · 02-10-2018 4:42pm

unkel wrote: »

I didn't mention V2H / V2G!

We were just discussing emergency backup for your home essentials here. You can use either your ICE (with the engine running) or your EV (switched on) for this

I'd like to think it's a lot more than that. But even with just 300W you can keep all the essentials I mentioned up and running. My own ancient inverter is that, just 300W

Iirc both the Leaf and BMW i3 can handle 80A off the aux battery. That's nearly a kilowatt!!! I haven't seen figures for Ioniq. I also doubt you can get anything like that from an ICE as I suspect the alternator wouldn't be powerful enough to keep up with that.

I wouldnt feel comfortable running the house on that sort of setup. I know what you're getting at now but to be honest it's too flimsy for me.

I remember my leaf aux battery was only rated 60A (and it had the renault nissan badges still on it so it was the OEM supplied one). Havent even opened the hood of the Ioniq since I got it so I don't know what it's rated for. 20k km and not even looked under the hood.:cool:

KCross · 02-10-2018 4:44pm

unkel wrote: »

I didn't mention V2H / V2G!

We were just discussing emergency backup for your home essentials here. You can use either your ICE (with the engine running) or your EV (switched on) for this

Well, you replied and quoted a post from ELM specifically discussing V2G and invalidating warranty so that was the context provided.

Maybe you missed that?

Obviously a dealer/manufacturer wouldnt easily know you were running stuff off a few crocodile clips on the 12V although I'm sure they would figure it out if they looked at the cars logs which would show it running for hours on end with no mileage being clocked up and the DC-DC inverter kicking in to top up the 12V battery. That stuff is almost certainly all logged in the ECU.

slave1 · 02-10-2018 5:05pm

KCross wrote: »

..That stuff is almost certainly all logged in the ECU.

Interesting in these GDPR days would that data be available to them though without your permission, I highly doubt it

KCross · 02-10-2018 5:33pm

slave1 wrote: »

Interesting in these GDPR days would that data be available to them though without your permission, I highly doubt it

Thats stretching GDPR a bit. All its doing is logging its own data. It doesnt have your name/address and bank details in its ECU!

unkel · 02-10-2018 9:15pm

KCross wrote: »

Obviously a dealer/manufacturer wouldnt easily know you were running stuff off a few crocodile clips on the 12V although I'm sure they would figure it out if they looked at the cars logs which would show it running for hours on end with no mileage being clocked up and the DC-DC inverter kicking in to top up the 12V battery. That stuff is almost certainly all logged in the ECU.

Even if it is logged at that level (which I doubt), you can just say you were charging up your heavy duty laptop through the cigarette lighter. There is no way they can disprove that (onus of proof is with them)

ELM327 wrote: »

I remember my leaf aux battery was only rated 60A

60Ah, not 60A. Very different thing

traco · 02-10-2018 10:50pm

I don't know how good the EV charging circuitry is but I have seen a decent brand generator zap the charging circuitry for 72V lithium batteries. Do some research and make sure their out put is a nice and clean.

unkel · 02-10-2018 11:22pm

Was that some sort of test bench setup? I doubt it was an actual EV. Very unlikely the car will let you charge at all if it isn't happy with the output from the genny. And of course you will need a pure sine wave output.

How much wattage to charge up an EV?

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