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Mairia Cahill vindicated

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    #152
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    FTA69 wrote: »
    You must have missed the part when the authorities ignored her rapist and tried to flip a young rape victim into becoming an informer, thus risking her life for their political benefit?

    It's really, really transparent here who is genuinely criticising all sides for their handling of this tragic case and who is using a victim of sexual abuse to crowbar in their own seething hatred of Sinn Féin et al. Absolutely stupid. This isn't a simple narrative of Republican baddies at all.

    You carry on with the victim blaming. Good lad.


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    #153
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    The annoying thing is that these last x pages have seemed to be people generally accepting (or not disagreeing with) each other's points but bound and determined that their specific point should be the *main* point.

    I may have missed a particular comment, but I'm not really sure why FB is getting quite this sat on.

    We *know* that there a plenty in the nationalist community today that will not or cannot trust the PSNI. See "A Mother Brings Her Son to be Shot", events of which happened in 2012.

    When the official law enforcement is not trusted vigilante justice starts up and is resorted to because there seems to be no other choice.

    And given vigilante justice is based on either mob rule or someone who won't face justice for their own decisions, this easily turns into gang control of an area.

    There is plenty of blame to go around, against the PSNI and against SF, as Mary-Lou McD obviously agreed.

    The man or men accused are not yet officially guilty as they have not been tried and, despite NI justice too often apparently being who is on which end of the gun, he should probably get a trial, no?

    This does not mean that Mairia Cahill was not abominably treated and had her name dragged through the mud due to powerful factions working their own self-interest.

    Which point am I missing that is making this go round in circles of "no, PSNI, no, SF"?


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    #154
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    garhjw wrote: »
    Any trial should be held in the SCC. By doing this, Sinn Fein or the animals they represent can’t interfere with jurors or witnesses. Funny how SF want it abolished.

    I'm pretty sure the SCC holds no sway or authority in the north.


    Text book just wading in and displaying utter cluelessness.
    garhjw wrote: »
    I am aware of that but when you are dealing with terrorist, rapists and their sympathisers, witnesses and jurors need protection. For these type of people, the UK should use an SCC mechanism as it is proven to work. Her rapist is happy to stand trial as he knows witnesses, victims and jurors can be targeted

    Text book wading in and displaying utter cluelessness part 2.

    It was the PSNI/RUC who ultimately denied Cahill any justice she may have been due.

    You might have missed this from earlier in the thread.
    The Ombudsman found no evidence that anyone had been protected from prosecution or that the PSNI investigation became subject to adverse political interference.

    Three of the officers recommended for action have been disciplined. The fourth has retired.

    PSNI Chief Constable George Hamilton said the three women were failed by the police.

    "I apologise unequivocally for the hurt and distress caused to them and for the failures in the police investigation," he said.

    Now I realise that may be an uncomfortable truth for some, but its fact non the less.


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    #155
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Rhineshark wrote: »
    The annoying thing is that these last x pages have seemed to be people generally accepting (or not disagreeing with) each other's points but bound and determined that their specific point should be the *main* point.

    I may have missed a particular comment, but I'm not really sure why FB is getting quite this sat on.

    We *know* that there a plenty in the nationalist community today that will not or cannot trust the PSNI. See "A Mother Brings Her Son to be Shot", events of which happened in 2012.

    When the official law enforcement is not trusted vigilante justice starts up and is resorted to because there seems to be no other choice.

    And given vigilante justice is based on either mob rule or someone who won't face justice for their own decisions, this easily turns into gang control of an area.

    There is plenty of blame to go around, against the PSNI and against SF, as Mary-Lou McD obviously agreed.

    The man or men accused are not yet officially guilty as they have not been tried and, despite NI justice too often apparently being who is on which end of the gun, he should probably get a trial, no?

    This does not mean that Mairia Cahill was not abominably treated and had her name dragged through the mud due to powerful factions working their own self-interest.

    Which point am I missing that is making this go round in circles of "no, PSNI, no, SF"?

    Even Gerry Adams accepted that the IRA investigation was 'totally wrong'.

    I looked it up there and he said this as far back as 2014.


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    #156
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    garhjw wrote: »
    You carry on with the victim blaming. Good lad.

    Sorry can you please point out where I once blamed Cahill or put the onus of her treatment on her? I've made around three posts, it shouldn't be hard.

    I haven't blamed any victim here, I've blamed the IRA and I've blamed the police - both of whom are culpable for the lack of justice here. You on the other hand, are coming out with a load of nonsense about the state ensuring she's protected from the evil terrorists when the state itself tried to use her. Do you understand the significance of that like? Or are you only able to trot out false accusations and inaccurate, glib dismissals?


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    #157
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,326 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    garhjw wrote: »
    You carry on with the victim blaming. Good lad.

    This isn't an acceptable manner of posting here. Please read the charter before posting again.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #158
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,411 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Sorry to bother you with inconvenient facts, but SF and IRA members who have committed crimes have gone to jail, the leaders brother for instance, just like members of other political parties have.

    Mairia Cahill's case collapsed because the police were trying to get somebody else. The same thing happened when Aine Adams went to them with her complaint.

    Can you point to a single case of witnesses or jurors being 'targeted' since the Diplock courts were dismantled? I would be interested to see how often this has happened.

    After it was covered up for how long?


    Sure wasn't there a thread on here about that and we had one of ye hard core SF acolytes argue for many days over the use of the word pedophile.


    Keep up the defence lads am sure the army council thank you for it.


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    #159
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    After it was covered up for how long?


    Sure wasn't there a thread on here about that and we had one of ye hard core SF acolytes argue for many days over the use of the word pedophile.


    Keep up the defence lads am sure the army council thank you for it.

    Which I have always criticsed Gerry Adams for.

    I have also criticised the IRA consistently for engaging in delivering justice in abuse cases. They simply should not have been doing that. I understand too that the context in which they had to respond to the likes of Mairia Cahill's requests was absurd and the fault of a corrupt police force and state who failed to deliver a justice system and a police force that could be trusted. Even after the RUC was restructured and renamed in disgrace it is clear that elements had an agenda that further denied justice being served here.

    As Rhineshark says, this cannot be looked at through a simple lens. There were many factors at play.


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    #160
    Dick Pickle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭Dick Pickle


    Nice little drop in the polls for Provisional Sinn Fein. Public obviously reacting to see their true colours in recent days.


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    #161
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Dick Pickle wrote: »
    Nice little drop in the polls for Provisional Sinn Fein. Public obviously reacting to see their true colours in recent days.

    Apart from this poll most likely having been conducted long before this report was released, there's "a nice little drop" for all of the big 3.

    What has happened recently that resulted in losses for FG/FF too do you think?

    I'd certainly not be taking much solace in those numbers if I was a govt minister at the minute, that's for sure.


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    #162
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Cahill previously supporting the IRA, dissident Republicans or now social democrat types has nothing at all to do with the case at hand to be honest and shouldn't really be discussed in my opinion, at least not in the context of her rape.

    It's a very sad story the whole thing, and sadly it was probably inevitable considering the organisations she was dealing with and the political context at the time. An illegal organisation not at all equipped to deal with this and a police force who cared more about squeezing her for information rather prosecuting her abuser.

    The thing is while the PSNI have publicly laid bare their involvement and apologised comprehensively to Mairia Cahill, as have the Prosecution Service, Sinn Fein and the IRA continue to duck and dive and pretend they did nothing wrong.

    We still haven't had Sinn Fein confirm that they knew about the abuse in 1997 but didn't expel the member until 2000. We still haven't had them confirm that the knew about the kangaroo court. It is all hide and cover-up, just like the Catholic Church.


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    #163
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    After it was covered up for how long?


    Sure wasn't there a thread on here about that and we had one of ye hard core SF acolytes argue for many days over the use of the word pedophile.


    Keep up the defence lads am sure the army council thank you for it.

    I had forgotten that. Wasn't there some lad who seemed to be arguing that Liam Adams wasn't a pedophile because Aine Adams was the only one he had abused and she had gone through puberty?

    It was completely disgusting as a defence of the man.


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    #164
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The thing is while the PSNI have publicly laid bare their involvement and apologised comprehensively to Mairia Cahill, as have the Prosecution Service, Sinn Fein and the IRA continue to duck and dive and pretend they did nothing wrong.

    We still haven't had Sinn Fein confirm that they knew about the abuse in 1997 but didn't expel the member until 2000. We still haven't had them confirm that the knew about the kangaroo court. It is all hide and cover-up, just like the Catholic Church.

    5 members of SF turned up at court which was supposed to 'uncover' what went on here.
    That is 5 members, who were summoned to account for themselves and went voluntarily to do that and presumably would have accepted any sentence handed down for wrongdoing.

    Gerry Adams has apologised and called what the IRA did 'totally wrong' and given his account of what went on with Mairia Cahill.

    Mary Lou has apologised as well now and admitted that some things were not done right.

    One of the defendants has letters (written evidence) which shows that Mairia Cahill got help and support from members of SF and Mairia thanked her for that - profusely, some would say on seeing the quotes from them.

    What exactly is required from SF now is vague, as Mairia Cahill has rejected the apology she asked for from SF but has accepted the PSNI apology. Strange.


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    #165
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    5 members of SF turned up at court which was supposed to 'uncover' what went on here.
    That is 5 members, who were summoned to account for themselves and went voluntarily to do that and presumably would have accepted any sentence handed down for wrongdoing.

    Gerry Adams has apologised and called what the IRA did 'totally wrong' and given his account of what went on with Mairia Cahill.

    Mary Lou has apologised as well now and admitted that some things were not done right.

    One of the defendants has letters (written evidence) which shows that Mairia Cahill got help and support from members of SF and Mairia thanked her for that - profusely, some would say on seeing the quotes from them.

    What exactly is required from SF now is vague, as Mairia Cahill has rejected the apology she asked for from SF but has accepted the PSNI apology. Strange.

    The public have heard from the PSNI and the Crown Prosecution Service the full warts and all of their involvement, the complete truth and the complete facts and Mairia Cahill has been vindicated.

    Time for Sinn Fein to publicly set the record straight on all they knew and all they did (or didn't do).


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    #166
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The public have heard from the PSNI and the Crown Prosecution Service the full warts and all of their involvement, the complete truth and the complete facts and Mairia Cahill has been vindicated.

    Time for Sinn Fein to publicly set the record straight on all they knew and all they did (or didn't do).

    They have if you had listened.
    They attempted to help her and there is written evidence to back that up. Mairia Cahill actually thanking a member for their help. Mairia threatened to sue when the particular defendant mentioned these letters.


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    #167
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,269 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    Until SF shake their past they'll continue to be a party that the majority of people don't take serious.


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    #168
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote:
    Do you have a link to where Sinn Fein set out clearly all records in relation to the membership and subsequent expulsion of the man alleged to have raped Mairia Cahill?

    If not, they are still hiding. The PSNI were able to confirm disciplinary action for those who failed Mairia Cahill. What did Sinn Fein do to those who failed Mairia Cahill?



    P.S. Maybe I shouldn't ask, as the IRA were still active.

    There are people involved here who have rights as well as Mairia Cahill.

    Releasing documents prejudicial to a fair trial would be wholly wrong of SF as an organisation.

    If I was as concerned for Mairia Cahill as some purport to be and indeed if Mairia is concerned about getting her alleged abuser off the streets, then it is WAY past time that funding was raised to get this whole thing into a court of law.

    Perhaps it could be a little project you could start yourself. I would contribute to it financially in the interests of justice.


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    #169
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,411 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I had forgotten that. Wasn't there some lad who seemed to be arguing that Liam Adams wasn't a pedophile because Aine Adams was the only one he had abused and she had gone through puberty?

    It was completely disgusting as a defence of the man.

    He kept quoting dictionary versions of the word pedophile and claimed it was not relevant to Adams. Cant search the thread at the moment as am on phone but would be interested to know if the same poster is in here these days still defending SF.


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    #170
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    There are people involved here who have rights as well as Mairia Cahill.

    Releasing documents prejudicial to a fair trial would be wholly wrong of SF as an organisation.

    If I was as concerned for Mairia Cahill as some purport to be and indeed if Mairia is concerned about getting her alleged abuser off the streets, then it is WAY past time that funding was raised to get this whole thing into a court of law.

    Perhaps it could be a little project you could start yourself. I would contribute to it financially in the interests of justice.

    That is a very strange argument, a clerical type of argument, one might say.

    The only people that could be helped by any withholding of documents are the defendants. The less information available to the prosecution, the less chance of a successful prosecution.

    What you are clearly implying is that Sinn Fein have some documentation (presumably from the kangaroo court or the expulsion) that would incriminate the person accused of harming Mairia Cahill, and that they are justified in withholding it so he can present a defence. Isn't that the exact same thing as a cover-up? And the exact same thing that the Catholic Church did?


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    #171
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That is a very strange argument, a clerical type of argument, one might say.

    The only people that could be helped by any withholding of documents are the defendants. The less information available to the prosecution, the less chance of a successful prosecution.

    What you are clearly implying is that Sinn Fein have some documentation (presumably from the kangaroo court or the expulsion) that would incriminate the person accused of harming Mairia Cahill, and that they are justified in withholding it so he can present a defence. Isn't that the exact same thing as a cover-up? And the exact same thing that the Catholic Church did?

    I didn't say anything of the kind.

    5 people were clearly going to defend themselves and clearly had evidence in the form of written material that would back up what they did in this case.

    As long as they willingly offered themselves for trial suggestions of a 'cover up' are ridiculous.

    SF releasing any information they have on the defendant before a trial would prejudice the case.
    I know you in your vigilantism would have no problems with that (republican rights do not seem to matter to you) but lawyers for the defendant certainly would.


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    #172
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I didn't say anything of the kind.

    5 people were clearly going to defend themselves and clearly had evidence in the form of written material that would back up what they did in this case.

    As long as they willingly offered themselves for trial suggestions of a 'cover up' are ridiculous.

    SF releasing any information they have on the defendant before a trial would prejudice the case.
    I know you in your vigilantism would have no problems with that (republican rights do not seem to matter to you) but lawyers for the defendant certainly would.


    Nobody willingly offers themself for trial!!!!!!! You don't get a choice.

    In any event, there isn't going to be a trial. The PSNI and the CPS have messed up so much that it isn't possible (unless there are some third parties hiding new evidence) so there is nothing stopping SF from publishing their files on the matter.


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    #173
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Nobody willingly offers themself for trial!!!!!!! You don't get a choice.

    In any event, there isn't going to be a trial. The PSNI and the CPS have messed up so much that it isn't possible (unless there are some third parties hiding new evidence) so there is nothing stopping SF from publishing their files on the matter.

    Have any of them fled the jurisdiction or attempted to? No, they haven't and further, they have said again and again they are going to vociferously defend themselves.

    Maria has mentioned civil proceedings several times.

    Other than her word, she doesn't seem to have any physical evidence of what she alleges happened after the alleged rape. The defendants have written evidence that shows they tried to help herand get her to go to the police. So we will see what happens next.


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    #174
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/sinn-fein-tried-to-conceal-a-coverup-the-apology-to-me-is-not-enough-37320476.html

    I never realised that the two other children were abused after Sinn Fein learned of the abuse of Mairia Cahill and did nothing about it.

    Words fail me as I think of them following in the footsteps of the Catholic Church.


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    #175
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    garhjw wrote: »
    supporting / defending Sinn Fein on this issue is like arguing that jimmy saville did a lot of good because he raised money for charity.

    You should be ashamed of yourselves for the comments posted on this thread.

    Can you point out these posts? The entire thread is based on a straw man.
    Not even SF are defending SF on this.

    The PSNI are being given a pass almost in the tripping over to get a dig at SF. Ironically, that's seemingly what happened Ms. Cahill and her allegations.


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    #176
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Can you point out these posts? The entire thread is based on a straw man.
    Not even SF are defending SF on this.

    The PSNI are being given a pass almost in the tripping over to get a dig at SF. Ironically, that's seemingly what happened Ms. Cahill and her allegations.

    True, because of the publicity around this case the likelihood is that 3 people, not just one, will not get justice for their alleged abuse.

    The Indo giving Mairia the chance to rant is not helping anyone really. Mary Lou was talking about the other two in the Dail years ago who were complaining about the inordinate publicity about one allegation and they feared their cases would be forgotten.

    Seems they have been when it took a Sindo article rehashing it as 'new news' to remind or inform some. :rolleyes:


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    #177
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The inconvenient truth. Cahill didn't trust the police like most republicans/nationalists. And it was with good reason, as the report and history shows.
    She asked that the IRA deal with her alleged abuse and whatever you say, they did.
    It was appalling that they did that and that they had to, and in that respect Cahill is another victim of a much wider problem in the north.

    The waters in this case are thickly muddied, the desire by many many people to 'get Gerry' and 'SF' has obscured a lot of the detail here.
    At the end of the day, the 'IRA' did not 'rape' Mairia Cahill, as even the Irish Times prints, nor did SF - a 'man' allegedly raped Mairia and he has turned up at court, willingly to make his case.

    It is time all the brayers and people with agendas other than justice for an alleged victim to step back and allow justice to be done, which ever way it falls.
    Like Liam Adams, or like the member of any party or organisation, if he did this crime, he deserves and should be in jail.


    I will just leave here a link to what the Irish Times has to say yesterday about the current issue:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-m%C3%A1ir%C3%ADa-cahill-taking-responsibility-1.3630951?mode=amp

    "Sinn Féin and the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) have come badly out of the inquiry into allegations of rape made by Máiría Cahill. The police have at least made a proper apology and three officers have been disciplined for failing to act in the appropriate manner. The same cannot be said of Sinn Féin and its leader Mary Lou McDonald whose latest response to the episode has still failed to address the central points made by Cahill.

    While McDonald has issued an unreserved apology for the way the allegations of rape were handled, and praised Cahill’s bravery, she sidestepped taking responsibility for the way the republican movement handled the issue for so long."

    "McDonald has been vociferous in her condemnation of the Catholic Church for its failure to deal properly with claims of abuse and its attempts to sweep them under the carpet. Those denunciations look particularly hollow in the light of the Sinn Féin leader’s continued refusal to come up with an adequate apology to Máiría Cahill for all that she has suffered over such a long period."

    That is just quoting from the Irish Times, there is no spin, there is no twisting, I am not trying to recast it as something that it isn't.


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    #178
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    True, because of the publicity around this case the likelihood is that 3 people, not just one, will not get justice for their alleged abuse.

    The Indo giving Mairia the chance to rant is not helping anyone really. Mary Lou was talking about the other two in the Dail years ago who were complaining about the inordinate publicity about one allegation and they feared their cases would be forgotten.

    Seems they have been when it took a Sindo article rehashing it as 'new news' to remind or inform some. :rolleyes:

    And the report on the PSNI's failings used as a jumping off point by those claiming to have Ms. Cahill's interest at heart. Pretty low brow.


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    #179
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0918/994525-mairia-cahill/

    Sometimes you are better off saying nothing and let the controversy die down. Sinn Fein are usually quite good at that, but this time it seems Mary Lou is no mood to accept any criticism.

    We still await details of when they first knew of the abuse, and how long before they expelled the member allegedly involved. This doesn't cut across any rights he might have, because Sinn Fein have previously admitted to the expulsion. All they need to do now is publicise the relevant documents.


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    #180
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    And the report on the PSNI's failings used as a jumping off point by those claiming to have Ms. Cahill's interest at heart. Pretty low brow.

    All too predictable, the most vociferous care least that a woman was raped and that those who could deliver justice when given opportunity spurned it. This was no molehill to be fighting over, the topic needed respect, and got none.


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    #181
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Havockk wrote: »
    All too predictable, the most vociferous care least that a woman was raped and that those who could deliver justice when given opportunity spurned it. This was no molehill to be fighting over, the topic needed respect, and got none.

    Are you suggesting that the Irish Times editorial desk have shown no respect to Mairia Cahill?


    Strange twist of logic, that.


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