The decline in Catholicism and the increase in debt.

troyzer · 12-09-2018 11:58AM

What a mad thread.

BarryD2 · 12-09-2018 12:05PM

"The decline in Catholicism and the increase in debt"

And I thought it was the Prods that were always considered careful with their few bob!! Whereas the Catholics were regarded as flathulach!

12-09-2018 12:28PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

................. The nuns would have been prudent.

I dunno, selling babies wouldn't be my idea of prudence, in financial terms they sold people that they had no right to. Morally and ethically wrong........ and in cold financial terms selling what you don't own is a no no.

looksee · 12-09-2018 12:40PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

It was enormous before 2007, it is just much more enormous now. Even at the peak of the celtic tiger, the government only had budget surpluses of about a billion because it squandered so much on quangos. The nuns would not have wasted money on quangos, they would have done away with the dole and given work to the idle. Factories would have hum to the sound of industry and happy workers would have recited the rosary in the fields, the factories and in the board rooms. Ireland would have competed successfully with China to stave off imports.

* Crucially, wealth manifests where you combine hard work with frugality. The Ireland of today has neither of these attributes, it has debt and it is about to pay dearly for that debt.

Someone else's hard work and frugality will create wealth for an individual, certainly. Not sure how that helps.

This theory isn't worth discussing though, its total rubbish.

eviltwin · 12-09-2018 12:51PM

What kinds of people are you proposing we put in these new style laundries OP and to what end?

10pennymixup · 12-09-2018 12:52PM

troyzer wrote: »

What a mad thread.

My favourite cleric would say:

"That's mad Ted".

pauldla · 12-09-2018 03:40PM

10pennymixup wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

What a mad thread.

My favourite cleric would say:

"That's mad Ted".

Or as his colleague would say:

Nuns! Nuns! Reverse! Reverse!

smacl · 12-09-2018 07:07PM

pauldla wrote: »

Or as his colleague would say:

Nuns! Nuns! Reverse! Reverse!

Indeed. For those of us that grew up when droves of nuns and brothers roamed the land, they're not exactly warmly remembered.

Mancomb Seepgood · 12-09-2018 07:16PM

Read the start of this,thought it sounded a little crazy,then looked at the threads started by the OP,quite a wild ride.

We have a lot less nuns than we used to in Ireland,and I suspect that those there are didn't join their orders for a shot at the Finance ministry or to sit on the board of a bank.But what do I know.

smacl · 12-09-2018 07:54PM

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Read the start of this,thought it sounded a little crazy,then looked at the threads started by the OP,quite a wild ride.

Thought to myself, sounds interesting, so followed you down that yellow brick road. You guessed it. I was clicking my heels together pretty darn quick. Won't be going back there again anytime soon.

realitykeeper · 12-09-2018 08:19PM

Augeo wrote: »

I dunno, selling babies wouldn't be my idea of prudence, in financial terms they sold people that they had no right to. Morally and ethically wrong........ and in cold financial terms selling what you don't own is a no no.

I think the contemporary narrative on the Magdalene laundries is comparable to the approach Miene Kampf takes on the Jews. There is probably a tiny grain of truth in there somewhere but then there is a tonne of manure.

amcalester · 12-09-2018 08:22PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think the contemporary narrative on the Magdalene laundries is comparable to the approach Miene Kampf takes on the Jews. There is probably a tiny grain of truth in there somewhere but then there is a tonne of manure.

The nuns, great bunch of lads.

FFS

realitykeeper · 12-09-2018 08:29PM

looksee wrote: »

Someone else's hard work and frugality will create wealth for an individual, certainly. Not sure how that helps.

This theory isn't worth discussing though, its total rubbish.

I would contend that the nuns worked extremely hard for no pay. The nuns did not ask the women in their care to do anything they were not doing themselves. Admittedly the nuns choose that life. Many of the women thought very highly of the nuns and invited them to their weddings and became lifelong friends.

The nuns were asked to take these women in, their families and the state did not want them and they had nowhere else to go.

realitykeeper · 12-09-2018 08:41PM

eviltwin wrote: »

What kinds of people are you proposing we put in these new style laundries OP and to what end?

Not necessarily laundry duty. In the old days picking oakum was the sort of thing they did so I would suggest they do some modern day necessity, but the labour should be used intelligently so it brings in an income for the workhouse while providing a valuable service.

The workhouses gave people a chance to eat something and a place to sleep. Reopening the workhouses would have been infinitely better than bailing out the banks. They would have been a safety net for the little guy and would have been a far cheaper option than the bank bailouts.

Cabaal · 13-09-2018 07:37AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Bank debt is private debt, not government debt, and the nuns would not have bailed them out.

Come to think of it, if the nuns had run the banks, they would never have needed a bailout in the first place.

Sure about that?
They liked putting together false records when it comes to money. Thats something that doesn't go down well in banking

Tuam for example, the billing the Irish state for the continued "care" of children that had been dumped already. Thats fraud.

realitykeeper wrote: »

the point I am making is that the women who worked in the Magdalene laundries were not charged for their bed and board. Employees of the state are paid with borrowed money so ultimately they and everyone else will have to repay that money with interest. .

oh dear,
The women's family's were billed in many, many cases though and the Irish state was billed.
So that means the nuns contributed to debt incurred by the Irish state and they also used tax payer money.

Also as stated above, the nuns also billed the Irish state for the continued care of baby's that they knew were dead because they already dumped them.
So nuns that commit fraud against the Irish state are great are they?

I'm not sure what reality you are in, but its not the same as everyone else.

Cabaal · 13-09-2018 08:03AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

The workhouses gave people a chance to eat something and a place to sleep. Reopening the workhouses would have been infinitely better than bailing out the banks. They would have been a safety net for the little guy and would have been a far cheaper option than the bank bailouts.

Oh yeah the workhouses were fantastic
:rolleyes:

A positive utopia of a support system that we should re-open to "help" the poor.

Lets not forget that upon arrival families having to enter the workhouse together were then separated into the men’s, women’s, boys’, and girls’ sections. Infants were allowed to remain with their mothers for a limited period...how lovely.

Now, doesn't that sound much, much better then family's in hotels?

Cabaal · 13-09-2018 08:07AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I would contend that the nuns worked extremely hard for no pay. The nuns did not ask the women in their care to do anything they were not doing themselves. Admittedly the nuns choose that life. Many of the women thought very highly of the nuns and invited them to their weddings and became lifelong friends.

The nuns received money, its a lie to claim otherwise. Perhaps not the lower level individual, but the nuns overall did.

The nuns were asked to take these women in, their families and the state did not want them and they had nowhere else to go.

The catholic church created that culture so they could benefit from it, I know of a number of stories locally where the local parish priest would go down to the family and tell them to send the daughter away. Some did, some didn't.

This was common throughout the country and is well documented.

sbsquarepants · 13-09-2018 08:11AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Ireland needs to be run by the nuns as a matter of absolute urgency. Am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong.

Are we done here?

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-09-2018 09:13AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I read in the Irish Times recently that the increase in Ireland`s national debt really began in earnest in the 1980s and it occurred to me that this trend coincided with the decline in Church attendance, the authority of the church, the numbers of catholics etc.

It is well known that the nuns were a frugal and thrifty group of women who knew how to stretch a pound, fair play to them, they were great when it came to running hospitals and so on. No super bugs in the hospitals back then, the hand scrubber and carbolic soap saw to that.

The consequences of the enormous national debt will be far more dire than almost anyone can comprehend and that being the case, would Ireland have been better off it it turned the running of the country over to the nuns these past 4 decades?

I know a lot of people think the nuns did a bad job running the laundries, but if Ireland faces serious financial difficulty in future, it seems to me that the reopening of the laundrys and workhouses generally will be a necessity as will the debtors prisons. Furthermore, if these institutions are run by non nuns, I believe they will not be as good as when they were run by nuns. All this reality could have been avoided if the country spent more time listening to the nuns and less to the liberal media.

The next recession will be the worst in human history and I believe it will start before the end of this decade. Ireland needs to be run by the nuns as a matter of absolute urgency. Am I wrong?

As you tell us every year for a decade now :rolleyes:

realitykeeper wrote: »

For the past nine years, I have been saying to anyone who will listen that the global economy will fail in a way that will dwarf the great depression.

realitykeeper · 13-09-2018 09:48AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Oh yeah the workhouses were fantastic
:rolleyes:

A positive utopia of a support system that we should re-open to "help" the poor.

Lets not forget that upon arrival families having to enter the workhouse together were then separated into the men’s, women’s, boys’, and girls’ sections. Infants were allowed to remain with their mothers for a limited period...how lovely.

Now, doesn't that sound much, much better then family's in hotels?

A modern day workhouse could keep families together by using curtains to segregate large dormitories into family spaces or again by using curtains to devide up large marquees into family spaces or having refugee type camps for them. Obviously, if the banks had not been bailed out and the government had not re-blown the property bubble, evictions would have been much higher so such measures would have been necessary.

Crucially though, these measures will be necessary anyway despite the billions borrowed to bail out the banks. All Enda Kenny`s government achieved was a postponement of the pain that must come. Ironically, not borrowing the money would not only have kept the national debt at a less unsustainable level but it would have meant that the suffering and evictions would now be in the past instead of in the future.

Cabaal · 13-09-2018 10:01AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

A modern day workhouse could keep families together by using curtains to segregate large dormitories into family spaces or again by using curtains to devide up large marquees into family spaces or having refugee type camps for them. Obviously, if the banks had not been bailed out and the government had not re-blown the property bubble, evictions would have been much higher so such measures would have been necessary.

Rightttt,
so you've moved on to using tents and curtains to give family's a little space. sounds lovely.
Ireland full of refugee like camps....that paints such a pretty picture doesn't it?

After all, we can't re-open the workhouses, most are being used for something else, are in private ownership, have been knocked or are in such ruins that it would cost a fortune to restore them.

Crucially though, these measures will be necessary anyway despite the billions borrowed to bail out the banks. All Enda Kenny`s government achieved was a postponement of the pain that must come. .

No we don't need refugee camps thanks very much, they are not necessary to house the people you want thrown out of their houses.

Its clear you are away with the fairies,

realitykeeper · 13-09-2018 10:40AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Rightttt,
so you've moved on to using tents and curtains to give family's a little space. sounds lovely.
Ireland full of refugee like camps....that paints such a pretty picture doesn't it?

After all, we can't re-open the workhouses, most are being used for something else, are in private ownership, have been knocked or are in such ruins that it would cost a fortune to restore them.

No we don't need refugee camps thanks very much, they are not necessary to house the people you want thrown out of their houses.

Its clear you are away with the fairies,

Yes the workhouses have other uses now so refugee type camps would be needed until new workhouses can be build. Perhaps the occupants could build the new workhouses themselves so that would be the first work they get to do and later people who are down and out would be working in these new workhouses.

I take your point that refugee type camps do not sound nice but when you live beyond your means, a time comes to pay.

As regards people being thrown out of "their houses", I would remind you that those people own the mortgage not the house. After eviction from the banks houses, they would still need to pay in the case of negative equity.

Billy86 · 13-09-2018 10:45AM

Realitykeeper can we assume that you want to be an "occupant" in one of these homes yourself?

Cabaal · 13-09-2018 11:03AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes the workhouses have other uses now so refugee type camps would be needed until new workhouses can be build. Perhaps the occupants could build the new workhouses themselves so that would be the first work they get to do and later people who are down and out would be working in these new workhouses.

Yes, perhaps non skilled people can build workhouses......lets go with that idea, nothing like trying to get an office worker, stay at home parent etc who's never lifted a hammer in their life to build a large building complex and all the associated works such as water, sewage, telecoms etc
:rolleyes:

Lets not forget that any skilled persons worth their salt isn't going to opt for ending up in a workhouse and they'll likely emigrate if they had the choice between your idea and leaving the country (after all who would ever wanty your pie in the sky crazy idea for their family?). You really need to read up on your history man if you think that work houses were a good solution in Ireland.

I'll be honest, it sounds like your wet dream is a worldwide recession with positively billions of people out of work and in camps. You think the camps are inevitable too.

You're pretty messed up,

SusieBlue · 13-09-2018 11:35AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes the workhouses have other uses now so refugee type camps would be needed until new workhouses can be build. Perhaps the occupants could build the new workhouses themselves so that would be the first work they get to do and later people who are down and out would be working in these new workhouses.

I take your point that refugee type camps do not sound nice but when you live beyond your means, a time comes to pay.

As regards people being thrown out of "their houses", I would remind you that those people own the mortgage not the house. After eviction from the banks houses, they would still need to pay in the case of negative equity.

Do you see these refugee camps/workhouses as something we should aspire to have and need? Really?
Would you happily live in one, have your children grow up in one, and spend your life there?
If not, why are you encouraging it as an option for other people?

We had work houses. We had laundries.
We also had (and have) multiple generations of traumatised adults who were so emotionally and physically damaged from the abuse they suffered in these institutions they were never right again.
Workhouses and laundries are not something we should ever aspire to have in this country.
We can do better for those who are struggling. We don't treat people like that any more.

Sounds like you have some warped rose tinted glasses on tbh - doubt you'd be talking like this if you or someone you loved had every actually been in a workhouse or a laundry.

Bubbaclaus · 13-09-2018 01:05PM

Realitykeeper, please seek professional help.

EdgeCase · 13-09-2018 02:07PM

All this stuff about how the nuns ran the hospitals better is frankly nonsense.

1. They still run many of them and they're clearly not doing a great job. A significant number of our public hospitals are owned by religious orders and they don't out perform secularly owned hospitals.

2. Superbugs came about because of high tech medicine. We are dependent on antibiotics and many of those are becoming useless due to the adaptation of bacteria to them. Antibiotics have made a lot of surgeries possible that wouldn't have been feasible at all without them and they treat a lot of diseases that were simply fatal in the past.

3. High tech medicine also means people who are immunosuppressed or otherwise immune compromised due to chemotherapy and just due to being able to survive longer while much sicker than was possible in the days of yore. Back in the day those people mostly just died.

4. The costs of high tech medicine are astronomically expensive. There's no way you can even compare a modern hospital and a 1940s version. What can be done now is practically sci-fi in comparison to what was possible back then.

5. Infections killed people quite regularly in the old days.

Basically, you're trying to compare a primative healthcare system from decades ago, where surgical and medical technology was quite basic, the types of treatments being used were simple, the fatality rates were very high and the costs were very low to 21st century public health?!

It's like trying to compare the internet to a 1920s telegraph machine!

TheShow · 13-09-2018 02:10PM

Is this waterford whispers?

Turtwig · 13-09-2018 05:22PM

Mod: I'm closing this as I can't really see anything positive or constructive coming from it.

The decline in Catholicism and the increase in debt.

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