Homelessness on the rise

Tony EH · 20-08-2018 11:49am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

In Dublin most did. I don't know about the rest of country. In Dublin we spent like there was no tomorrow. Max out overdrawn, credit card, cred union. "Sure we'll be grand".

No. In Dublin, most did not. They simply wanted to settle down in a home. Sure, there were idiots who thought "Sure we'll be grand", but the vast majority of people bought for the reasons the vast majority of people always bought. To get out of the "dead money" situation that renting represents.

Renting in Ireland, and especially in Dublin, is just not a viable alternative to trying to buy your own home, when you reach the age where settling down and raising a family becomes part of your life. We (Ireland Inc.) just aren't interested in trying to set up something of the fashion that Europe has, with proper rent controls and leases that actually benefit the renter. Everything is geared toward the landlord in this country and when people get to a certain age, it comes down to a now or never choice, with regards to buying.

People find themselves with a Hobson's choice in Ireland, because we've let housing over here go to shit. It's either take the chance that everything will be ok and landlords won't fuck you around, or take a chance on a mortgage and if people are on the path of marriage/children, choice two is what they'll go for 90% of the time.

Couple that with the fact that deregulated banks were handing out unrealistic loans, like loan sharks, plus Ireland's dodgy history with employment/unemployment and you have a market that's destined for doom.

The fact is, the banks should never had had the leeway that they did, with regards to lending. That way, people wouldn't have been able to get unrealistic mortgages and that would also have cooled the market to a more realistic temperature too, in the end bringing prices down and benefiting everyone. Not just the relative few who want to flip property.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I believe it was 2005 or 2006 that Richard Bruton stood up in the Dail and said that we can't continue to live on credit the way we were. He said it'll come crashing around our ears. Yet people borrowed more & more.

I don't buy the "everyone partied" line.

TSQ · 20-08-2018 1:05pm

Tony EH wrote: »

No. In Dublin, most did not. They simply wanted to settle down in a home. Sure, there were idiots who thought "Sure we'll be grand",

Couple that with the fact that deregulated banks were handing out unrealistic loans, like loan sharks,

I don't buy the "everyone partied" line.

During the "boom" everyone I knew (all in their 20's or early 30's) who bought a house furnished it from new and mostly borrowed even more to kit it out to the nines. No such thing as making do with cast-off suite from mum or buying from Oxfam or Adverts (only people who do this are landlords or renters as far as I can see). And they're at it again - anyone seen the Ulster Bank "help for what matters" ads.. ? These loans linked to a mortgage muse surely breach the central bank guidelines in spirit if not in fact. But, as the song goes "I want it all and I want it now" - and while not everyone is too snobby or too into "image" to make do with what they can afford, don't blame the banks, or any other business, for taking advantage of silly people.

Sleeper12 · 20-08-2018 1:34pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Sorry, not "everyone" or "anyone over the age of 35" did this type of thing. In fact, I'd say those that did were in the minority.

The VAST majority of people who took out a mortgage, did so simply to buy a home. Not a "house" or an "asset", or an "equitable" product. Just a home. Because renting in this dumb shithole isn't a viable option for a stable family situation.

Actually buying your own home, where you can lay roots, is essential to building a stable family. You cannot do that, if you are at the behest of a landlord, who may decide your future for you at the drop of the hat. We have an extremely poor tenancy situation in this country and renting is only ok, if your a 20 something with no responsibilities. Once you get to be a real adult, with real responsibilities, living in a house where you go from 12 month lease to 12 month lease means you have no solidity in your home/family life.

I never said everyone or anyone over 35 Did this sort of thing but in Dublin MOST people buying at the height of the boom borrowed much more than needed for their home. I made a point twice of saying "not all".

People wanted the best of everything in their brand new home from decking to hardwood floors throughout. American fridge, 40 or 50 inch flat screen, holidays, upgrade the car etc. All of the things that you shouldn't do when buying a new house. Many maxed out their card, credit union & lied to get a bigger mortgage. Many got Mammy & Daddy's special saving account money & claimed to have saved it themselves. We actually had 110% mortgages.

I don't buy the "everyone partied" line.

You mightn't "buy it" but it's true.

Everyone partied. You paid less tax, your wages went up. Dole payments went up even though we had full employment in the country. Children's allowance went through the roof. We even gave extra if you had twins & triplets We had & still have the highest state old age pension in Europe so your parents partied. Teachers were tripping over special needs assistants, we had that many. We built huge motorways & LUAS. They even bought out Westlink Tool company so you wouldn't have to queue at the toll booth. At one stage they actually paid us 25% just to save money. Can you imagine that.

If you lived in Ireland you benefited from the boom & partied like the rest of us.

Party is over & the bill now has to be settled. Most likely by our grandchildren sadly

joxer1988 · 20-08-2018 2:11pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Not true. in eg Canada they only use the term "homeless" for rough sleepers, As they have nearly 3 million of these.. I have family there working with the homeless.

Ireland alone calls those in temp accommodation homeless and the charities call hotel room people homeless.

Actual rough sleeper figures here are low

Ireland exaggerates.

Canada has 3 million rough sleepers... >8% of the population? A lie as blatant as this is impressive, even in 2018!

pwurple · 20-08-2018 3:04pm

Are we not in accommodation forum? What has Irish water or child benefit etc etc have to do with it.

We earn money, we choose what we do with it.

If we have some extra, we might put it in a pension fund , so we are effectively part of one of those "vulture" funds. Or buy a place.

I bought a house in 2002. Furnished with secondhand stuff. Rented rooms to my colleagues who shared the house with me, overpaid mortgage, paid it off as fast as I could. Kept it as rental, Used savings to get another mortgage in 2006. Lived in that, rented out a room. Moved again in 2013. Currently plugging away on paying off my third mortgage. So, I am maintaining housing stock now for a small bunch of tenants and my own family. (Evil landlord clearly. )

Regular boring citizen, steady job, family, couple of kids. Had bereavement, family illness, job changes, the usual stuff in there too. No inheritance. No family gifts. Just my bog standard state education (thanks govt) and my wits behind me. Bought at both bad times and good. No luck or special forsight. Paid taxes the whole way.

My cousin took a different path. Started from the same place.. he got same degree , 1 year ahead of me. He had slightly Fancier private fee paying education in one of those prestigious schools. Drank, spent and holidayed his way through the last two decades. Is now "homeless", having pissed off everyone he knows by being a general leech and dickhead. Even his mother won't let him stay. He complains about the government constantly.

The govt didn't do that to him. Same govt for both of us. Personal responsibility?

I pay taxes, he gets the social. Families get more, child welfare, single parent, HAP etc. I am very happy to support social welfare to help society function. I don't want to live in chaos. But Christ, lads, when is it enough? How much more is needed? I already give half my wages. Irish people get education, healthcare and cash into the paw if they need it. The freedom we have here means we have the risk of failure too. The safety net is there, more than the US, more than a lot of places... but it's still a basic one. If people take that welfare support and spend it on holidays instead of a place to live, why is that my fault?

Because beefing up that net, means increasing taxes, penalising me.

Sleeper12 · 20-08-2018 5:30pm

pwurple wrote:

Are we not in accommodation forum? What has Irish water or child benefit etc etc have to do with it.

Eh... The thread is titled Homelessness on the rise.

hmmm · 20-08-2018 5:35pm

pwurple wrote: »

The safety net is there, more than the US, more than a lot of places... but it's still a basic one. If people take that welfare support and spend it on holidays instead of a place to live, why is that my fault?

Because beefing up that net, means increasing taxes, penalising me.

We like to think the "safety net" is there, but it really isn't. If you lose your job, no-one is going to be paying your mortgage, and you'll get a few hundred euros into your pocket a month for a little while - despite having paid thousands in tax over the years. After that point, the state will take everything you have because you don't know how to play the social welfare system.

The people who are receiving your taxes include a very small number of people who genuinely can't cope, and I don't think anyone will begrudge them a hand up. Then there is a much larger cohort of people who are able bodied, able minded who believe they can opt out of working for a living, and are "entitled" to receive various handouts. They help this along by playing on emotions - "won't someone think of the childers..."

The problem is how do you separate the two groups above? There seems to be an entire industry of charity workers who are trying to conflate the two, and try and get taxes raised to pay for it. The reason we don't see a major investment into social housing is because the politicians know the public at large do not believe the figures.

Sleeper12 · 20-08-2018 5:55pm

hmmm wrote: »

We like to think the "safety net" is there, but it really isn't. If you lose your job, no-one is going to be paying your mortgage, and you'll get a few hundred euros into your pocket a month for a little while - despite having paid thousands in tax over the years. After that point, the state will take everything you have because you don't know how to play the social welfare system.

The people who are receiving your taxes include a very small number of people who genuinely can't cope, and I don't think anyone will begrudge them a hand up. Then there is a much larger cohort of people who are able bodied, able minded who believe they can opt out of working for a living, and are "entitled" to receive various handouts. They help this along by playing on emotions - "won't someone think of the childers..."

The problem is how do you separate the two groups above? There seems to be an entire industry of charity workers who are trying to conflate the two, and try and get taxes raised to pay for it. The reason we don't see a major investment into social housing is because the politicians know the public at large do not believe the figures.

I remember talking to a young electrician who had his own new home & family in 2008. I was telling him about the possibility of families losing their homes cos they lose their jobs.I was quite shocked at his reaction but it was typical of the time. "Well it serves them right if they didn't pay for a mortgage protection policy!"

What he didn't realize was that said policies only covered you for a year or so. He found out the hard way several years later when he lost his own house to the banks.

His reaction was typical of the time & (to me) shows why we needed the recession to give Irish people the kick in the pants we needed. We got so far up our own arses it was horrible.

Tony EH · 20-08-2018 10:13pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I never said everyone or anyone over 35 Did this sort of thing but in Dublin MOST people buying at the height of the boom borrowed much more than needed for their home. I made a point twice of saying "not all".

This is your exact quote:

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Everyone padded out their earnings, fibbed about their overtime & promised to rent out the spare room when they had no intention of doing so. The banks were loaning too much but most people lied & borrowed more than even the banks were willing to loan if told the truth.

And it's wrong. Not "everyone" padded out earnings, fibbed, or promised to rent anything out. You're tarring up a brush and wiping everybody with it.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You mightn't "buy it" but it's true.

Just because you say so, doesn't make it true.

Maybe you and your lot partied. That doesn't mean everyone else did.

pwurple · 20-08-2018 10:23pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I remember talking to a young electrician who had his own new home & family in 2008. I was telling him about the possibility of families losing their homes cos they lose their jobs.I was quite shocked at his reaction but it was typical of the time. "Well it serves them right if they didn't pay for a mortgage protection policy!"

What he didn't realize was that said policies only covered you for a year or so. He found out the hard way several years later when he lost his own house to the banks.

His reaction was typical of the time & (to me) shows why we needed the recession to give Irish people the kick in the pants we needed. We got so far up our own arses it was horrible.

There are also people who stopped paying their mortgages in 2008 who have still not moved out. They participate, pay a bit here and there. Some are repossessed and pay rent on the same house instead. Engagement in the process instead of head in the sand.

And, of course, Sometimes a house is not worth what you paid for it, and you are actually much better off long term handing back the keys to the bank.

If someone lost a job back in 2008, and doesn't have a long term illness... I don't know why they would still be unemployed 10 years later though.

How is that young electrician doing now I wonder?

Sleeper12 · 21-08-2018 7:46am

pwurple wrote:

There are also people who stopped paying their mortgages in 2008 who have still not moved out. They participate, pay a bit here and there. Some are repossessed and pay rent on the same house instead. Engagement in the process instead of head in the sand.

A friend of mine remortgaged in 2007 or so. Borrowed too much much of from a lender that specialises in people that regular banks wouldn't loan to. He got into difficulties within months. This is crowds would ring him 24/7. They had him under so much pressure I thought he'd take his own life ordered the stress would kill him. He wanted to make a deal from the get go but they insisted on full payments and he couldn't make full payments. In his particular case it was the lender who had their head in the sand. Government changed laws & they couldn't ring him every day. They also couldn't just take the house under new laws so in the end they came up with a deal that he could afford. He praises the government every day because they helped him keep his house.

At the start of the resession many just handed the keys back and left the country. Many borrowed so long much 110 percent in some cases they never saw light at the end of the tunnel. They fled the country leaving the rest of us to pay for their mess

I guess the bottom line is that some banks & borrowers had their heads in the sand.

Tony EH · 21-08-2018 10:13am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A friend of mine remortgaged in 2007 or so. Borrowed too much much of from a lender that specialises in people that regular banks wouldn't loan to. He got into difficulties within months. This is crowds would ring him 24/7. They had him under so much pressure I thought he'd take his own life ordered the stress would kill him. He wanted to make a deal from the get go but they insisted on full payments and he couldn't make full payments. In his particular case it was the lender who had their head in the sand. Government changed laws & they couldn't ring him every day. They also couldn't just take the house under new laws so in the end they came up with a deal that he could afford. He praises the government every day because they helped him keep his house.

At the start of the resession many just handed the keys back and left the country. Many borrowed so long much 110 percent in some cases they never saw light at the end of the tunnel. They fled the country leaving the rest of us to pay for their mess

I guess the bottom line is that some banks & borrowers had their heads in the sand.

At least TPTB stepped in and actually helped your friend, which is something. But, this is a prime example of the loan sharking that goes on within institutions and why strict regulation should be enforced to stop such actions at their source.

Some people may be taking on a huge gamble when they take out a mortgage, but it's no less a gamble if you forgo that chance (which often comes down to a now or never option) and put your future in the hands of private landlords and have no knowledge of where you'll be living year to year. Given the realities of that "choice", it's difficult to blame ordinary folk for risking the mortgage option.

The problem is an unregulated banking sector that offers unrealistic loans and practically throws money at people. The fault above, with your friend doesn't begin with him. It begins with the institution and their bad lending practices.

But as long as there exists conditions where, those that can make a difference have a hands off approach, there's a banking sector that's motivated purely by greed and a housing situation that drives people into desperate decisions, these stories will always come about.

Today we're well along the same path and that Hobson's choice still exists. Little has been put into action to stem the problems we experienced a decade ago. As a country we (that is government) have learned nothing from 10 years ago and when the next crash comes - and it is on the way - it might be a bigger mess than that of 2008.

21-08-2018 11:21am

pwurple wrote: »

..........I already give half my wages..............

Do you?

You don't pay into a pension? You pay nothing at the lower rate of 20%?

Old diesel · 21-08-2018 12:11pm

Augeo wrote: »

pwurple wrote: »

..........I already give half my wages..............

Do you?
You don't pay into a pension? You pay nothing at the lower rate of 20%?

USC included?????

Graces7 · 21-08-2018 1:51pm

joxer1988 wrote: »

Canada has 3 million rough sleepers... >8% of the population? A lie as blatant as this is impressive, even in 2018!

Not a lie. Audit figures. I have extended family who work with the homeless and they took part in the govt audit. Woefully accurate

21-08-2018 3:59pm

Old diesel wrote: »

USC included?????

Regardless of USC being inlcuded or not half of their income is not given away in taxes or however they phrased it.

Someone (single, no kids etc) on €200k/annum not paying into a pension takes home €109k/annum.

Anyone who has kids effectively gets some of their tax back in children's allowance too.

Sleeper12 · 21-08-2018 5:00pm

Augeo wrote:

Anyone who has kids effectively gets some of their tax back in children's allowance too.

That's not getting tax back. It's totally separate. How would people on the day dole get children's allowance if it were a tax rebate.

Doing maths this way you would have to factor it 23 percent vat paid on goods bought & excise duty on cigarettes, alcohol and petrol.

joxer1988 · 22-08-2018 3:29am

Graces7 wrote: »

Not a lie. Audit figures. I have extended family who work with the homeless and they took part in the govt audit. Woefully accurate

But no actual source other than extended family who told you so...?

Quick google tells us it's 30,000. You weren't far off though - only 3 zeroes!

The_Conductor · 22-08-2018 7:05am

joxer1988 wrote: »

But no actual source other than extended family who told you so...?

Quick google tells us it's 30,000. You weren't far off though - only 3 zeroes!

Homeless Hub state that in the years between 2010 and 2016- that between 150,000 and 300,000 unique individuals accessed their services in any given year. This does not mean that there are 300,000 homeless individuals at any given time- its an amalgamate comprising of *all* unique contacts annually.

Note- its not as simple as taking the higher figure and dividing by 12 to get a monthly figure- as people are constantly moving in and out of homelessness- and in the context of Canada, and with the patterns of seasonal employment (particularly in some of the states)- a lions share of the new incidents of homelessness occur in the depths of winter.

Also- they tabulate homelessness in an entirely different manner to Ireland (but then again- it would appear that its difficult to find any two countries compiling stats in a similar manner).

A copy of their most recent report (2016) on the sector is here.

Couple of curious stats in there- including the average stay in homeless shelters- is 10 days for individuals, and 20 days for families. Also men are over 4 times more likely to need to access hub resources- than are women. Their total number of beds available for homeless use is 35,000- and the local indigenous population represent an abnormally large 30-35% of all homeless.

Slydice · 29-08-2018 9:48pm

The average amount of children in a national school class during 2017/2018 was: 24.5
(ref: https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Key-Statistics/key-statistics-2017-2018.pdf)
In July 2018, the number of children in homelessness increased by: 43

The July figures have been released:
https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/homeless_report_-_july_2018.pdf

Homelessness is on the rise. I've updated the two charts based on the totals they give.

Homelessness (Adults)

Family Homelessness

The latest report does not have commentary where previous reports did. They used to include:

The long term solution to the current homeless issue is to increase the supply of homes

or:

The root cause of increased homelessness is the supply shortage across the housing sector, which in turn is a result of the recent economic collapse and the associated damage to the construction sector. Accordingly the long-term solution to the current homeless issue is to increase the supply of homes.

Coverage of this report:
The number of homeless families has increased to a new record
https://www.thejournal.ie/homeless-families-july-4208555-Aug2018/

Homelessness charity Focus Ireland has also criticised the government this afternoon, claiming that they are “getting further away” from solving the crisis.

“The shocking fact that almost four families became homeless every single day in July in Dublin alone really shows how far we are from getting on top of the crisis,” Focus CEO Pat Dennigan said today.

Government 'moving at snail's pace' as number of homeless children reaches record high
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-moving-at-snails-pace-as-number-of-homeless-children-reaches-record-high-865410.html

“Children living in emergency accommodation return to school after a summer of anxiety and uncertainty. Many have experienced frequent moves as hotel rooms have been booked by tourists.

"The impact of homelessness on a child cannot be overestimated and the long-term effects on this generation of children may not be fully apparent for decades to come."

Tweets:
https://twitter.com/Barnardos_IRL/status/1034830611737964544
https://twitter.com/MyNameCampaign/status/1034866932086988805
https://twitter.com/FocusIreland/status/1034893470698225665
https://twitter.com/SimonCommunity/status/1034822809841754112
https://twitter.com/ICHHDUBLIN/status/1034842209655382022
https://twitter.com/PMVTrust/status/1034823483107237889

Other recent media on homelessness and supply shortage in Ireland:
Rough sleeper 'tsunami' has hit Dublin claims Inner City Helping Homeless chief
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/inner-city-helping-homeless-15080081

"We have an inundation of people experiencing rough sleeping and we are still on street with teams already engaged with over 130 rough sleepers.

"A serious increase in the demographic of those presenting. An increase in the 18-25 year old age range.

The ‘Economist’ says Dublin house prices are 25% overvalued
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/the-economist-says-dublin-house-prices-are-25-overvalued-1.3608951

The finding from the influential newspaper comes on the back of continued price growth in Dublin and across the country, with prices nationally now up 79.6 per cent from their 2012 lows, with Dublin prices almost doubling, up 92.7 per cent.

Renting a home now €274 per month above Celtic Tiger peak
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/renting-a-home-now-274-per-month-above-celtic-tiger-peak-862673.html

This represents the ninth consecutive quarter in which a new all-time high for rents has been set and also in which annual inflation in rents has been greater than 10%.

Report highlights chronic shortage of student accommodation
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/report-highlights-chronic-shortage-of-student-accommodation-1.3598749

“The Government’s strategy for student housing leaves a lot to be desired, relying solely on the private sector to bulk out the number of in purpose-built student accommodation,” he said.

“The reality is that these privately-owned developments are priced way beyond the means of the vast majority of students with weekly rates in excess of €230,”he said.

Dr Lyons said the luxurious student complexes that had sprung up in Dublin and elsewhere in the last few years are attractive not to the student from a middle-income family but to international students.

Bubbaclaus · 29-08-2018 9:51pm

60% of homeless families are single parent families.

Sleeper12 · 29-08-2018 9:52pm

They are still manipulating the figures trying to make it look like its under 10,000 when it's closer to 10, 500

29-08-2018 10:02pm

Some common sense. https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/calls-for-airbnb-to-be-banned-in-cork-city-865366.html

Eric Cartman · 29-08-2018 10:04pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

They are still manipulating the figures trying to make it look like its under 10,000 when it's closer to 10, 500

the government is trying to manipulate the figures down, the homeless services are trying to manipulate them up , everyones at it.

homeless services are considering children living with grandparents homeless, considering adult children homeless , considering people in non HAP accommodation homeless due to the insecurity of their lease.

There is a problem, but these people who profit from that problem are trying to make the net wider to catch more for the figures and as that net gets wider more and more people are saying 'yeah sure I'm homeless' to try and get a free house.

Sleeper12 · 29-08-2018 10:31pm

Eric Cartman wrote:

the government is trying to manipulate the figures down, the homeless services are trying to manipulate them up , everyones at it.

Alternative facts?

Old diesel · 30-08-2018 8:12am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

They are still manipulating the figures trying to make it look like its under 10,000 when it's closer to 10, 500

It just looks so blatant when the 1st adjustment of the figures in March stopped the official stats going over 10 k

30-08-2018 8:57am

We hear how 4 families became homeless every day in July. Do we have figures for the number that were housed?

DubCount · 30-08-2018 9:12am

Deleted User wrote: »

We hear how 4 families became homeless every day in July. Do we have figures for the number that were housed?

As the overall total number of homeless families increased by 24 during the month, that means 3 families per day were housed (net increase is less than 1 per day)

30-08-2018 10:49am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That's not getting tax back. It's totally separate...............

that's why I said effectively.
Children's allowance is paid from the large pot your income tax attempts to fill. It's the PAYE worker is keeping the lights on in Ireland.

01-09-2018 10:06am

Am I reading this correct or is there a typo in the article?
“Two people in a two-bed dwelling are not living in overcrowded accommodation. But if a child comes, there are now more people than rooms, so they fall into this cohort.” https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/big-squeeze-is-the-hidden-side-to-our-house-crisis-37272266.html
What they seem to be saying is that everyone in the family should have their own bedroom. It seems that I’ve been living in cramped, overcrowded conditions all these years and never knew it!

Homelessness on the rise

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