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Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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Comments

  • #1562
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Pints? wrote: »
    Child abuse and cover ups have nothing to do with their organisation. It's not as if you have to abuse a few kids to join. If so then I'd protest.

    Abuse carried out by priests and nuns and cover up done by the organisation following the organisation rules has nothing to do with the organisation? :confused::confused::confused:

    Do you wish to clarify that or do you want to continue to make a show of yourself?


  • #1563
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,925 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Pints? wrote: »
    Child abuse and cover ups have nothing to do with their organisation. It's not as if you have to abuse a few kids to join. If so then I'd protest.


    you think child abuse and cover ups have nothing to do with the catholic church?


  • #1564
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Cabaal wrote: »
    In all honesty, whatever about 1970's or early 80's but most people now I believe would be in the view that if at say the age of 17 you decide to never have sex or be with another person man or women for the rest of your life by joining the priesthood/nuns then in all honestly you may want your head examined.

    Many would view it as throwing your life away. After all, you can be a good person, do good things etc and still have sex (shock, horror).

    We are social animals, its ingrained in us to have sex and seek connections with other in our species. To deny yourself such a connection for the rest of your life is rather.....I dare say unnatural.

    Of course i use the word unnatural on purpose before any Catholics got outraged about me calling priests/nuns unnatural, after all its how Catholics referred to gay people so its only fair ;)

    I'm Catholic and I agree completely. I'd have no issue with married priests and nuns. I was taught by nuns for 16 years, them getting laid may have made them less angry!

    My best mate had to go to a pre-marriage course as his mrs is Catholic and wanted to get married in church.

    He doesn't describe himself as atheist as such just "not arsed about any of it!".

    He made a great point about how can someone who has never experience a sexual relationship nor marriage counsel someone on the best ways to do so ?

    As the mate said "love, it's like you teaching someone to drive. It's just ensuring car crashes in the future".


  • #1565
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Pints? wrote: »
    Child abuse and cover ups have nothing to do with their organisation. It's not as if you have to abuse a few kids to join. If so then I'd protest.

    Child abuse and cover ups are at the core of the organisation, that is the point. The child abuse, though terrible, could be excused as being undertaken by evil men. But the church deliberately chose to cover it up, move them on, silence the children, threaten them, abuse its power within the state and hide behind secrecy.

    You might not considered they have nothing to do with the organisation, but for the CC, it is now a major part of the organisation. Most conversations will touch on it, or the people will deliberately avoid the topic.

    One can, really, only be judged on ones actions. I may profess to be a charitable person, but if I never give to charity, never put myself forward to help out etc then I cannot be considered to be charitable.

    In the same way, one can claim to be religious, but if you never pray, never attend church, don't follow the rules etc then you are simply claiming it.

    The CC is many things. One of the main things it is, is an organisation that purposely and systematically set out to protect itself from the outcome of child abuse allegations rather than look to help the victims and deal with the problem.

    There is simply no other way to look at the CC, not unless you want to lie to yourself for your own selfish reasons


  • #1566
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you think child abuse and cover ups have nothing to do with the catholic church?

    Sadly they do - one of the reasons why although I still pray and will light candles, I rarely go to Mass.

    Just cant be sure who did something, or knew something, or who covered what up.


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  • #1567
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,750 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Pints? wrote: »
    Child abuse and cover ups have nothing to do with their organisation. It's not as if you have to abuse a few kids to join. If so then I'd protest.

    that's a whole new level of selfish delusion... it is the organisation doing the covering up :confused:


  • #1568
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Abuse carried out by priests and nuns and cover up done by the organisation following the organisation rules has nothing to do with the organisation? :confused::confused::confused:

    Do you wish to clarify that or do you want to continue to make a show of yourself?

    Where in the rules of the organisation does it say you have to abuse kids and cover it up? I don't know my commandments I'll admit but don't remember that one!


  • #1569
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,750 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Pints? wrote: »
    Where in the rules of the organisation does it say you have to abuse kids and cover it up? I don't know my commandments I'll admit but don't remember that one!

    :rolleyes:

    bait post is baiting


  • #1570
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    lawred2 wrote: »
    that's a whole new level of selfish delusion... it is the organisation doing the covering up :confused:

    You're talking about the organisation. My mother is part of the organisation. I don't think she's been briefed by the Pope about how to cover up any abuse...hang on I'll ask her...no never.


  • #1571
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Pints? wrote: »
    Where in the rules of the organisation does it say you have to abuse kids and cover it up? I don't know my commandments I'll admit but don't remember that one!

    Sigh,

    The Vatican created the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,

    Then the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith created specific guidelines and rules that explained how priests and Bishops should deal with victims, move priests cover up abuse. This was all under Vatican orders.

    As such the organisation had rules to cover up abuse, this is a fact confirmed by several abuse reports in numerous country's and even in courts of law.

    care to show up yourself more or are you going to resort to silly childish comments like the above about your mother and how she didn't know?

    This is a serious, adult conversation we are having here by the way.


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  • #1572
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    I don't support the church. I'm completely against it. But I don't think the actions of a few of it's members warrant the whole thing to be silenced provided there are a lot of people who depend on it...which there are


  • #1573
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Sigh,

    The Vatican created the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,

    Then the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith created specific guidelines and rules that explained how priests and Bishops should deal with victims, move priests cover up abuse. This was all under Vatican orders.

    As such the organisation had rules to cover up abuse, this is a fact confirmed by several abuse reports in numerous country's and even in courts of law.

    care to show up yourself more or are you going to resort to silly childish comments like the above about your mother and how she didn't know?

    This is a serious, adult conversation we are having here by the way.

    My catholic friends didn't get that memo. Does this mean they can plead ignorance when they come for them?


  • #1574
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Pints? wrote: »
    I don't support the church. I'm completely against it. But I don't think the actions of a few of it's members warrant the whole thing to be silenced provided there are a lot of people who depend on it...which there are

    'Non-action' can be equally as bad as 'improper action'.

    And it's not just a 'few', it's rather a lot indeed.


  • #1575
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Pints? wrote: »
    My catholic friends didn't get that memo. Does this mean they can plead ignorance when they come for them?

    You're really not doing us Catholics ANY favours you know ?


  • #1576
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Pints? wrote: »
    I don't support the church. I'm completely against it. But I don't think the actions of a few of it's members warrant the whole thing to be silenced provided there are a lot of people who depend on it...which there are

    Actions of a few?
    :rolleyes:

    Seriously, you are making a fool of yourself now,

    The actions include numerous past popes, archbishops, bishops, cardinals, priests and nuns on every level from the Vatican down. Its systemic abuse and cover up, again confirmed in courts of law and numerous government abuse reports.

    Even if previous popes did not abuse kids themselves, they helped cover up the known abuse by allowing The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith do to its job.


  • #1577
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,750 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Pints? wrote: »
    You're talking about the organisation. My mother is part of the organisation. I don't think she's been briefed by the Pope about how to cover up any abuse...hang on I'll ask her...no never.

    no she's not

    she is a follower

    do you not get the humongous difference?


  • #1578
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Pints? wrote: »
    You're talking about the organisation. My mother is part of the organisation. I don't think she's been briefed by the Pope about how to cover up any abuse...hang on I'll ask her...no never.

    When your mother found out what the church had been up to in Ireland, never mind the rest of the world, what did she do?

    Did she leave and refuse to return until the church and completely changed?

    Or did she, as so many have, simply take the view that whatever harm the church had done their souls were more important and thus took the selfish approach and carried on with the excuse that it is all they knew?

    They might not have got the memo, but we are all aware of what had been going on. Based on that awareness, one had to make a decision on what to do. Doing nothing, i.e. remaining in the church and supportive of the pope, is a decision and based on their own religion, God will judge them on that.


  • #1579
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    When your mother found out what the church had been up to in Ireland, never mind the rest of the world, what did she do?

    Did she leave and refuse to return until the church and completely changed?

    Or did she, as so many have, simply take the view that whatever harm the church had done their souls were more important and thus took the selfish approach and carried on with the excuse that it is all they knew?

    They might not have got the memo, but we are all aware of what had been going on. Based on that awareness, one had to make a decision on what to do. Doing nothing, i.e. remaining in the church and supportive of the pope, is a decision and based on their own religion, God will judge them on that.

    I tapered off Mass attendance for sure, especially as it was discovered the Archbishop of the local diocesce (sp ?) covered some of it up.

    It's not put me off God, it's put me off priests.


  • #1580
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    I tapered off Mass attendance for sure, especially as it was discovered the Archbishop of the local diocesce (sp ?) covered some of it up.

    It's not put me off God, it's put me off priests.

    Totally agree. Religion is very different to faith. The CC is just an organisation selling the product of religion.

    Jesus never asked us to build big churches, or the Vatican, or kiss the ring of a pope. This was all done by the CC abusing the need for people to feel part of something to get power and money and influence.

    There are certainly lots of good that the CC does, and lots of incredible priests. But all that good can be done without all the evil of child abuse and cover ups and belittling women, and condemning gays, and screaming at girls who need an abortion, or casting out single mothers but rejoicing in the man.

    Keep your faith, but simply get rid of this failed organisation


  • #1581
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    I tapered off Mass attendance for sure, especially as it was discovered the Archbishop of the local diocesce (sp ?) covered some of it up.

    It's not put me off God, it's put me off priests.

    Honestly, thats the view of many catholics I've also spoken to.

    Or if they do go to mass they have time for the priests, but not for Bishops or anyone higher and certainly not for the pope and what he says.


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  • #1582
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Totally agree. Religion is very different to faith. The CC is just an organisation selling the product of religion.

    Jesus never asked us to build big churches, or the Vatican, or kiss the ring of a pope. This was all done by the CC abusing the need for people to feel part of something to get power and money and influence.

    There are certainly lots of good that the CC does, and lots of incredible priests. But all that good can be done without all the evil of child abuse and cover ups and belittling women, and condemning gays, and screaming at girls who need an abortion, or casting out single mothers but rejoicing in the man.

    Keep your faith, but simply get rid of this failed organisation

    I talk to God all the time, I believe the mother is in Heaven, I believe that one day I'll see her again.

    I also believe heavily in LGBT rights, contraception, voted to repeat the 8th etc.

    The Church may have defined me when younger, but not lately.


  • #1583
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    I say few because the vast majority of priests had nothing to do with it. So yeah, few.
    The crimes that have been committed need to be investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice. Everyone else can believe in what they want once it doesn't break any laws.
    Why shouldn't the protest be about the authorities not prosecuting and enforcing the law. If there's proof the Pope and archbishops covered it up why and we protesting that they are not tried before the courts? (And id well believe there is proof)


  • #1584
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Pints? wrote: »
    I say few because the vast majority of priests had nothing to do with it. So yeah, few.
    The crimes that have been committed need to be investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice. Everyone else can believe in what they want once it doesn't break any laws.
    Why shouldn't the protest be about the authorities not prosecuting and enforcing the law. If there's proof the Pope and archbishops covered it up why and we protesting that they are not tried before the courts? (And id well believe there is proof)

    Hard to properly investigate when the Vatican won't release its detailed records, they know what priests abused and what priests were moved around for abuse by them.

    So again, we're back to the issue is with the Vatican and the organisation.


  • #1585
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Pints? wrote: »
    I say few because the vast majority of priests had nothing to do with it. So yeah, few.
    The crimes that have been committed need to be investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice. Everyone else can believe in what they want once it doesn't break any laws.
    Why shouldn't the protest be about the authorities not prosecuting and enforcing the law. If there's proof the Pope and archbishops covered it up why and we protesting that they are not tried before the courts? (And id well believe there is proof)

    So even though the Pope accepts that the church failed the young (although he is claiming it all in the past) you don't think it is true?

    So shouldn't that mean you would want to protest the Pope for spreading such lies against the innocent CC?


  • #1586
    Mutant z
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    Just don't go to it if you don't want to go protesting about it seems pretty pointless to me i suspect the ones who do want to see him will go regardless and the ones who don't want to see him won't.


  • #1587
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Hard to properly investigate when the Vatican won't release its detailed records, they know what priests abused and what priests were moved around for abuse by them.

    So again, we're back to the issue is with the Vatican and the organisation.
    And if it's common knowledge they have these records why aren't the authorities getting a warrant for them? Which legally they could as the church can't withold information on criminal case. They're not in the confession box


  • #1588
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    Mutant z wrote: »
    Just don't go to it if you don't want to go protesting about it seems pretty pointless to me i suspect the ones who do want to see him will go regardless and the ones who don't want to see him won't.
    Well said


  • #1589
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Pints? wrote: »
    And if it's common knowledge they have these records why aren't the authorities getting a warrant for them? Which legally they could as the church can't withold information on criminal case. They're not in the confession box

    Hold on a second. Are you agreeing that abuse and cover up has taken place in the CC and asking why the authorities aren't been held to account?

    Or are you claiming that since the authorities haven't acted (in your opinion) then you don't believe it happened or if it did it wasn't as big as some people think and certainly not due to the actions of the church itself?


  • #1590
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Mutant z wrote: »
    Just don't go to it if you don't want to go protesting about it seems pretty pointless to me i suspect the ones who do want to see him will go regardless and the ones who don't want to see him won't.

    Its that type of attitude that lets these type of things go on for so long.

    What is the point going to the gardai, what is the point trying to seek justice?

    Luckily, they are people, like in the case of the Hillsborough 96, that took the attitude that even though things happen slowly, making your voice heard is important.

    Do you think that the changes that the CC is so quick to point to would have happened without the likes of victims speaking up? Don't you think the likes of the reporters that simply wouldn't let the story die had a noticeable effect?

    Even if all it achieves is to give those affected the knowledge that they are not alone, that the rest of the country does care for their pain, and that the country is not simply happy to clap along an forget. That in itself is very powerful when faced with such a significantly powerful organisation


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  • #1591
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Hold on a second. Are you agreeing that abuse and cover up has taken place in the CC and asking why the authorities aren't been held to account?

    Or are you claiming that since the authorities haven't acted (in your opinion) then you don't believe it happened or if it did it wasn't as big as some people think and certainly not due to the actions of the church itself?

    I'm saying abuse and cover up definitely happened. I'm suggesting the authorities aren't particularly good at their jobs if all the evidence they need to convict the Pope is in the Vatican and is so known that even random posters on boards know where it is. Maybe they just haven't been told where it is. You've clearly got evidence to take down the church. Report to your nearest garda station


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