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Gay Cake Controversy!

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  • Options
    #3452
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    DeVore wrote: »
    Serve the b*tch her chicken,
    Bake the f*cking cake,
    Write the goddamned marriage cert,
    Do your f*cking job.

    This isnt hard.
    And always remember PCBRIGADE PROTECTED SNOWFLAKES must be kept happy at all costs especially in IRELAND.


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    #3453
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    And always remember PCBRIGADE PROTECTED SNOWFLAKES must be kept happy at all costs especially in IRELAND.

    You're right, ertainly does seem to be a few of our usual snowflake right wingers triggered by this. Poor little things.


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    #3454
    Hande hoche!
    Registered Users Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!


    The owner stepped down as director from a local business group.

    http://www.thenews-gazette.com/content/wilkinson-steps-down-msl-director


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    #3455
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    DeVore wrote: »
    Serve the b*tch her chicken,
    Bake the f*cking cake,
    Write the goddamned marriage cert,
    Do your f*cking job.

    This isnt hard.

    Not really that simple though either.


  • Options
    #3456
    DredFX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭DredFX


    The Colorado guy is in trouble again, this time for refusing to bake a cake celebrating a gender transition.


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    #3457
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    DeVore wrote: »
    Serve the b*tch her chicken,
    Bake the f*cking cake,
    Write the goddamned marriage cert,
    Do your f*cking job.

    This isnt hard.

    And Twitter and Facebook?

    Shouldn't they just then 'Provide the fucking platform!


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    #3458
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    DredFX wrote: »
    The Colorado guy is in trouble again, this time for refusing to bake a cake celebrating a gender transition.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Hp7gH-n7g#t=250


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    #3459
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    DeVore wrote: »
    Serve the b*tch her chicken,
    Bake the f*cking cake,
    Write the goddamned marriage cert,
    Do your f*cking job.

    This isnt hard.

    Shunt the carriage full jews and couple it to the train engine,
    Write the list full of gypsies for the relocation plan
    pick out the autistic newborns in the hospital to be sent to the "new" hospital
    Pack the wagon full of blanket from the influenza hospital for the Indian reservation
    Do your f*cking job.

    This isn't hard.


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    #3460
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Completely false equivalence.

    In Nazi germany it was illegal to do what the nazis did and they people involved should have refused to comply.

    In my examples the services are legal and are the obligation of the public limited entities to offer them for trade to all (or in the case of the marriage license, to obey the order of the courts as a court appointed official).

    In short, refusing to comply with or be part of an illegal action is justified.
    Refusing to service a group of people because of your personal opinions of them, is not.


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    #3461
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    DeVore wrote: »
    Completely false equivalence.

    In Nazi germany it was illegal to do what the nazis did . . .
    It was not.

    In the Nazi view of things, the foundation of all law was the fuhrerprinzip - political authority flows not from the people, or even from the nation, but from the leader. Early on in their regime, they gave effect to this through the "Enabling Act" of 1934, a constitutional amendment which said, in effect, that laws could be made not only by the Reichstag, but by the Reich government, expressed in the declarations and directives of the Reich Chancellor, and that laws made in this way would prevail over laws made by the Reichstag, and wouild have the effect of revoking or amending them as necessary.

    Which is a roundabout way of saying that if the Fuhrer, or someone acting on the authority of the Fuhrer, tells you to do something, that's a law, and it trumps any inconsistent law which may have been enacted by the Reichstag.

    Legal scholars mostly analyse this as the collapse of the rule of law in Germany; the government could do what it wanted, with no supervision or accountability to courts, parliament or citizens. That's not law at all; that's just brute force. If you take this view then what the Nazis did wasn't illegal in Germany, because there was no law in Germany.

    If you take a less theoretical view, then what they did wasn't illegal because it was legalised by being enshrined in a government command, which had the force of law because the Constitution had been amended to say that it did.


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    #3462
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    That backery owner is a tit. Glad to see he will lose a **** load of money on legal bills.

    If you are opening a business on the High Street except the people on it and don't be an arsehole.


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    #3463
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    That backery owner is a tit. Glad to see he will lose a **** load of money on legal bills.

    If you are opening a business on the High Street except the people on it and don't be an arsehole.

    It's the cake he had an issue with, not the people.


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    #3464
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Harvey Slimy Doorknob wrote: »
    It's the cake he had an issue with, not the people.

    weak argument. No surprises no judge is entertaining that defence


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    #3465
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    weak argument. No surprises no judge is entertaining that defence

    Explain how it's a weak argument?

    He didn't refuse to serve a gay customer. He refused to make a cake which said "Support Gay Marriage". They're two very different things.


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    #3466
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Harvey Slimy Doorknob wrote: »
    Explain how it's a weak argument?

    He didn't refuse to serve a gay customer. He refused to make a cake which said "Support Gay Marriage". They're two very different things.

    Because by implication he is discriminating against the person gay lifestyle.

    If you say well I don't belive I should make a cake for a gay marriage because I am supporting something that is against my religion believes.

    I could also say I don't want to employ a women as it is against my religious believes that she should work outside home and I don't want to support that.....


    Believe what you want at home but don't take it to the highsteet.


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    #3467
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Harvey Slimy Doorknob wrote: »
    Explain how it's a weak argument?

    He didn't refuse to serve a gay customer. He refused to make a cake which said "Support Gay Marriage". They're two very different things.

    Gee, no one's said anything like this in the thread before... :rolleyes:

    This has all been done to death at this point. The long and the short of it is that four judges across two courts have found this to be discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. And they heard all the facts, not just the ones that made it into the press.


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    #3468
    Jack Moore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Jack Moore


    DeVore wrote: »
    Completely false equivalence.

    In Nazi germany it was illegal to do what the nazis did and they people involved should have refused to comply.

    In my examples the services are legal and are the obligation of the public limited entities to offer them for trade to all (or in the case of the marriage license, to obey the order of the courts as a court appointed official).

    In short, refusing to comply with or be part of an illegal action is justified.
    Refusing to service a group of people because of your personal opinions of them, is not.

    If I’m not gay but I order a gay cake and the baker refuses to bake it is the assumption he refused me or the product?


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    #3469
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,811 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    Because by implication he is discriminating against the person gay lifestyle.

    If you say well I don't belive I should make a cake for a gay marriage because I am supporting something that is against my religion believes.

    I could also say I don't want to employ a women as it is against my religious believes that she should work outside home and I don't want to support that.....


    Believe what you want at home but don't take it to the highsteet.

    You could also say that I am supporting the law of the land which outlaws gay marriage. Which means that every baker would have to put that message on a cake if requested. Something like "Keep Gay Marriage out of Northern Ireland"

    Of course it would take some Free Presbyterian types to discover a baker with a "gay lifestyle" to target, in the same way that Queer Space chose their target.


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    #3470
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    ...in the same way that Queer Space chose their target.

    Evidence please. And actual evidence, not circumstance, coincidence, or whataboutery.


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    #3471
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,811 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    Evidence please. And actual evidence, not circumstance, coincidence, or whataboutery.

    It is a tactic long in use by activists in America. Queer Space did not invent it.

    Also they got another baker to make the cake, the one we saw pictures of. They could have approached that baker first.


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    #3472
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    It is a tactic long in use by activists in America. Queer Space did not invent it.

    So no evidence. There's a word for making judgements about people in the absence of any evidence whatsoever.


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    #3473
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,811 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Would a baker in NI with a gay lifestyle be legally entitled to refuse to put this message on a cake?

    Keep Gay Marriage out of Northern Ireland.


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    #3474
    Ragnar Lothbrok
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Ragnar Lothbrok


    Jack Moore wrote: »
    If I’m not gay but I order a gay cake and the baker refuses to bake it is the assumption he refused me or the product?

    Genuinely good question. Does anyone know the answer?


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    #3475
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    You could also say that I am supporting the law of the land which outlaws gay marriage. Which means that every baker would have to put that message on a cake if requested. Something like "Keep Gay Marriage out of Northern Ireland"

    Of course it would take some Free Presbyterian types to discover a baker with a "gay lifestyle" to target, in the same way that Queer Space chose their target.

    But a political statement that does not imply/encourage a criminal act is not against "The of the land".

    Unless the bakery had a sign on the window saying no political messages then they may have been able to terminate the contract to bake the cake as it was against their terms of engagement. But I can't see how they can refuse the contract on a political statement that is not illegal to say when there was no notice that political messages were not accepted.

    If someone says "support gay marriage in Northern Ireland" they have committed no crime even tho currently it's not possible by law.


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    #3476
    D3V!L
    Registered Users Posts: 2,929 ✭✭✭D3V!L


    Jack Moore wrote: »
    If I’m not gay but I order a gay cake and the baker refuses to bake it is the assumption he refused me or the product?

    Very good point, you could be ordering it for a friend who's marrying his same sex partner.


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    #3477
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    D3V!L wrote: »
    Very good point, you could be ordering it for a friend who's marrying his same sex partner.

    I think the distinction between "Happy (Gay) Wedding Day" and "Support Gay Marriage" on the cake is important to remember


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    #3478
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Here's an interesting conundrum for both sides of the divide.
    It started with 'bake the cake' but now we have 'wax my lady balls!'

    https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/transgender-woman-files-human-rights-complaint-against-windsor-spa

    Here we have a human rights complaint against a Canadian spa were a Muslim woman refused to bikini wax a trans-woman's lady tackle.


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    #3479
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    conorhal wrote: »
    Here's an interesting conundrum for both sides of the divide.
    It started with 'bake the cake' but now we have 'wax my lady balls!'

    https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/transgender-woman-files-human-rights-complaint-against-windsor-spa

    Here wehave a human right complaint against a Canadian spa were a Muslim woman refused to bikini wax a trans-woman's lady tackle.

    Scary stuff. I don't see any grey area here - they don't wax balls, simple as. I'll give up home if the court rules against the spa.


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    #3480
    Jack Moore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Jack Moore


    Harvey Slimy Doorknob wrote: »
    I think the distinction between "Happy (Gay) Wedding Day" and "Support Gay Marriage" on the cake is important to remember

    Well what if I ordered it to show I support them, maybe it’s a surprise cake to take to their engagement party.


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    #3481
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    It's amazing sometimes, the threads that manage to keep going for over four fecking years.


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