Should we protest against the pope's visit?

Water John · 20-08-2018 10:34PM

Which civil jurisdiction in this case?

Allinall · 20-08-2018 10:49PM

Irish Kings wrote: »

Yes but what's preventing his arrest now with all the new evidence coming to light in recent years ?

The PSNI and those in power now in the Republic in recent years are not pro Catholic Church, far from it.

Why no arrests for questioning for concealing and conspiring to conceal criminal activity on either/any side of the border ?

Why are no search warrants being issued to see what other evidence is out there ?

Never mind any actual trials etc. ?

Why are the authorities doing NOTHING about the concealment of these crimes ?

No one in the media is asking this question either, never mind answering it.

Have you reported these crimes you know about, and have evidence of, and if not, why??

Irish Kings · 20-08-2018 10:58PM

Allinall wrote: »

Have you reported these crimes you know about, and have evidence of, and if not, why??

Covering up criminal activity, to my knowledge is a crime, everyone in the media and most politician claim there is sufficient evidence of a cover up, and I'll take their word over the bishops responsible for covering it up any day.

So I'm asking why has there not been any arrests by the authorities yet ? never mind convictions ?

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 11:08PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

But is it obtuse? Look, I do agree there was sex-obsessed clerics. Mc Quaid, for example, who shared little of my liberalism. There is a serious question on the extent that was the norm and I suspect it wasn't as common as often implied. There was backwardness in teachings on sex though but not in the most commonly interpreted way.

Then I suggest you do some research and reading.

McQuaid wasn't some parish priest, he ran the irish church.

Water John · 20-08-2018 11:16PM

Some questions about him too.

Allinall · 20-08-2018 11:23PM

Irish Kings wrote: »

Covering up criminal activity, to my knowledge is a crime, everyone in the media and most politician claim there is sufficient evidence of a cover up, and I'll take their word over the bishops responsible for covering it up any day.

So I'm asking why has there not been any arrests by the authorities yet ? never mind convictions ?

Evidence or links to show that most ( not some) politicians claim there is enough evidence of a cover up?

You do know that therre has to be a complaint made to the gardai for an investigation to start?

Why haven’t you initiated the process?

Irish Kings · 20-08-2018 11:27PM

Allinall wrote: »

Evidence or links to show that most ( not some) politicians claim there is enough evidence of a cover up?

You do know that therre has to be a complaint made to the gardai for an investigation to start?

Why haven’t you initiated the process?

Rubbish, the Gardai can investigate any suspected crime without receiving a complaint.

There's plenty of high level media and politicians who claim there is evidence and can submit one if they so choose.
I'm happy to trust their claims over any Bishop who was involved in a cover up.

Did the Pope not issue a 2000 word admission of wrong doing today ?

work · 20-08-2018 11:35PM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Here is the oath the abused children were forced to sign...

"I will never directly or indirectly, by means of a nod, or of a word, by writing, or in any other way, and under whatever type of pretext, even for the most urgent and most serious cause (even) for the purpose of a greater good, commit anything against this fidelity to the secret, unless a...dispensation has been expressly given to me by the Supreme Pontiff."

Wow where did you get that. It is really scary that people debate that this poisonous cult should be given any credence... ....Oh but if they only do x or y we can still have hope in them. Cop on....great quote though....says it all. Would you have a reference as I would like to read the full document?

Allinall · 20-08-2018 11:44PM

Irish Kings wrote: »

Rubbish, the Gardai can investigate any suspected crime without receiving a complaint.

There's plenty of high level media and politicians who claim there is evidence and can submit one if they so choose.
I'm happy to trust their claims over any Bishop who was involved in a cover up.

Did the Pope not issue a 2000 word admission of wrong doing today ?

So now you’ve gone from blaming the government, to blaming politicians, to blaming the media.

What have you personally done, other than post anonymously on a message board?

work · 20-08-2018 11:46PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

looksee wrote: »

What other organisation has that ability? If one person walks away, then true,it will not make a difference, but if enough people vote with their presence, or lack of, the people who can make a difference will take note. There is something very sad about supporting an organisation that only improves after nearly 2000 years because it is forced to though. What purpose or quality does that organisation have in that case?

Plenty of organisations have policies that require reporting of child abuse to direct superiors before reporting it to the Gardaí. That gives them the opportunity to cover it up...........

WTF are you spouting. Please name these evil organisations, other than the church, that require internal reporting to allow cover ups of child abuse. Please do not reference other religeons as that would be a joke. You are deluded or please PROVE me wrong.

Irish Kings · 20-08-2018 11:46PM

Allinall wrote: »

So now you’ve gone from blaming the government, to blaming politicians, to blaming the media.

What have you personally done, other than post anonymously on a message board?

I'm asking questions and I'll do so without your permission, why are you anonymously trying so hard to prevent me from doing so ?

The Pope issued a 2000 word admission today, and plenty of evidence has been produced by the media and politicians in the dial, why no arrests, never mind any trials or convictions in Ireland ?

Allinall · 20-08-2018 11:48PM

Irish Kings wrote: »

I'm asking questions and I'll do so without your permission, why no arrests, never mind any trials or convictions ?

Because nobody has made a complaint to the Gardai.

Why have you not initiated the process?

Water John · 20-08-2018 11:49PM

Allinall, you're just engaged in whataboutery. Blaming the messenger. Throwing dust in out eyes. Focus on the gross issue. Some priests violated children. When found out by their superiors, usually from parents or parishoners, they're moved onto the next parish to be free to do the same again.
I can't see how people are not absolutely shocked by this. That issue is the priority.

RustyNut · 20-08-2018 11:49PM

Irish Kings wrote: »

Allinall wrote: »

Have you reported these crimes you know about, and have evidence of, and if not, why??

Covering up criminal activity, to my knowledge is a crime, everyone in the media and most politician claim there is sufficient evidence of a cover up, and I'll take their word over the bishops responsible for covering it up any day.

So I'm asking why has there not been any arrests by the authorities yet ? never mind convictions ?

They are quite possibly afraid of ending up on the hook again financially. It's a legitimate question you are asking and I don't know the answer.

Irish Kings · 20-08-2018 11:53PM

RustyNut wrote: »

They are quite possibly afraid of ending up on the hook again financially. It's a legitimate question you are asking and I don't know the answer.

That didn't seem to bother them with the bondholder bailout to the tune of billions, and the good old taxpayer always foots the bills. No politician has ever been put on any hook for a state bill.

Also the Church can easily be made to pick up the tab, if found guilty in a court of law.

So what is going on ? Why not a single arrest for concealing the crimes, never mind a single trial / conviction, nor a single question in the media about why no prosecutions ?

RustyNut · 21-08-2018 12:05AM

Irish Kings wrote: »

RustyNut wrote: »

They are quite possibly afraid of ending up on the hook again financially. It's a legitimate question you are asking and I don't know the answer.

That didn't seem to bother them with the bondholder bailout to the tune of billions, and the good old taxpayer always foots the bills. No politician has ever been put on any hook for a state bill.

Also the Church can easily be made to pick up the tab, if found guilty in a court of law.

So what is going on ? Why not a single arrest for concealing the crimes, never mind a single trial / conviction, nor a single question in the media about why no prosecutions ?

What's your theory?

Irish Kings · 21-08-2018 12:09AM

RustyNut wrote: »

What's your theory?

I can't figure it out . . nor why no one asking these questions, I had hoped someone here might know. Bonkers given all the evidence that has surfaced in the last few years, there must be a way to bring to trial and convict at least some of those in Church management for concealing criminal activity ? What is going on ? It's not as if the powers that be, from the media to the politicians, are pro Catholic Church anymore.

work · 21-08-2018 12:13AM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Who can forget this'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-one-in-50-catholic-priests-bishops-and-cardinals-are-paedophiles-9602919.html

'Pope Francis has revealed that “reliable data” collected by the Vatican suggests that one in every 50 members of the Catholic clergy is a paedophile.

Speaking in an interview with La Repubblica, the Pope said his advisers had tried to “reassure” him that paedophilia within the Church was “at the level of two per cent”'

He didn't refer to active priests or abusers though and it is not remotely scientifically collected.

Yes not scientifically collected as you spout your usual cr@p. Yes underestimated by a factor of what say 10 times given they are liars and bullies. So would you say 20% possibly higher. What is fair to say would be that any priest more than 5 years out knows about active paedophiles. They have to but do next to nothing. Before you start with all they do to sort their steaming pile of dog crap mess please reference especially where public pressure didn't force change. They are pure corrupt evil.

work · 21-08-2018 12:25AM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

work wrote: »

Cabaal wrote: »

work wrote: »

complete junk answer. So the priests are good and the bishops bad? If one of your children was abused and you reported it to the police and nothing happened would you truly believe you did the right thing and are a good person. You would want to be a moron to think that. Change optics to the church and you do not apply any logic. WHY did they, the good clergy, not follow up and WHY did they not tell the police......so many questions and very weak defence.
Stop trying to defend or justify the indefensible.

You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I'm defending the church and its criminal actions,
:rolleyes:

However, you have to consider it was a different time, by going to a bishop any good priest did see themselves as doing the right thing. If the Bishop covered up the priest had no way of handling differntly. (suppose they could go higher then Bishop but that was a waste of time)

In many cases, especially in rural area's if a priest went to the Gardai the Gardai would likely go to the higher up who would likely in turn contact the Bishop again.

It was a messed up time where church and state where so intermixed that Gardai used to bring back unmarried women to laundry's. The women weren't even breaking the law if they escaped!

The church was seen as all powerful for many of the decades in question, the likes of John Charles McQuaid could bring down a TD...and he did!

AS I've said, there are no doubt good men that our priests and they have done good. But they've been betrayed by the church leadership all in the name of protecting the church and Vatican from scandal.

They've proven the church can no longer be trusted without major overhaul internally and independent reviews, neither of which is likely to happen anytime soon.

ALOT has changed in Ireland and its easy forget just how much power the church had in Ireland, but remember what backlash Sinead O'Conner got for ripping up a simple photo in the 1980's....now increase that by a factor of 100x for anyone who said anything against the church in the decades before! If you spoke out about the church back in the 1950's then you could expect the town you lived in to be turned against you, if you had a business it would be ruined.

I take your point but we are way way beyond those days now and still NO whistleblowers in the church of any significance. Corrupt to the core and they should be wiped off the face of the earth with all other hate driven religeons

I can't see how you can say there has been no whistle blowers. There always has been. Fr Bruno Mulvihill was probably Ireland's most famous one.

No there have not been any SIFNIFICANT (the word I used) number of whistleblowers. He is not a household name I looked him up and guess what it looks like he was hounded out if the cult. And this is the best you can present.......I only respond to you in case someone believes your superficial bull...... do you work for the Iona institute or some papal marketing group?

Irish Kings · 21-08-2018 12:28AM

work wrote: »

No there have not been any SIFNIFICANT (the word I used) number of whistleblowers. He is not a household name I looked him up and guess what it looks like he was hounded out if the cult. And this is the best you can present.......I only respond to you in case someone believes your superficial bull...... do you work for the Iona institute or some papal marketing group?

The authorities don't need any whistle blowers, the evidence is all over the media since the mid 90's, with more and more evidence coming out every year, and even more can easily be obtained with just a few search warrants of bishops offices, so why no attempt yet to even explore a single conviction for attempting to conceal a crime ?

Does no one else find the idea of no apparent desire from our current authorities or media today for any questioning, searches, arrests, trials or convictions for bishops / former bishops concealing criminal activity as worrying as the Church cover ups ? OR even a mention of it. It's truly bizarre.

work · 21-08-2018 12:49AM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Discodog wrote: »

Eric Savory Misogyny wrote: »

So we should assume that every priest is a paedophile?

No but we can assume that the vast majority knew, aided & abetted in the psychological, physical & sexual abuse of children. The only innocent ones are those who went straight to the police.

It is not correct that the vast majority knew and aided. Considering that most abuse to children occurs in the home, would you apply the same standards there?

Yes you with your great education keep telling us how wrong we are. It would seem sensible the home would be the location of most abuse as that is where they are. Please reference your fact and was it by priests in the kids home?

work · 21-08-2018 01:36AM

Irish Kings wrote: »

work wrote: »

No there have not been any SIFNIFICANT (the word I used) number of whistleblowers. He is not a household name I looked him up and guess what it looks like he was hounded out if the cult. And this is the best you can present.......I only respond to you in case someone believes your superficial bull...... do you work for the Iona institute or some papal marketing group?

The authorities don't need any whistle blowers, the evidence is all over the media since the mid 90's, with more and more evidence coming out every year, and even more can easily be obtained with just a few search warrants of bishops offices, so why no attempt yet to even explore a single conviction for attempting to conceal a crime ?

Does no one else find the idea of no apparent desire from our current authorities or media today for any questioning, searches, arrests, trials or convictions for bishops / former bishops concealing criminal activity as worrying as the Church cover ups ? OR even a mention of it. It's truly bizarre.

Sorry nobody can answer this question easily but I do think it is explainable as due to a combination of reasons:
1) Most in power, legal political rtf, in Ireland were indoctrinated in the CC cult and really struggle to fight it.
2) The Garda are understaffed and dysfunctional with a poor history with whistleblowers.
3) Politicians are mostly looking after themselves and up to this point would have felt there are more votes in supporting the church. This may finally change. When a gay Leo welcomes a homophobic cult leader to the country we really have issues.
I can keep going but it is late. You are right to ask and it is disgusting to think people just are not pursued this but the societal deference to the CC and general policing and legal dysfunction is staggering which has allowed no prosecutions.

johndf · 21-08-2018 02:07AM

Irish Kings wrote: »

That didn't seem to bother them with the bondholder bailout to the tune of billions, and the good old taxpayer always foots the bills. No politician has ever been put on any hook for a state bill.

Also the Church can easily be made to pick up the tab, if found guilty in a court of law.

So what is going on ? Why not a single arrest for concealing the crimes, never mind a single trial / conviction, nor a single question in the media about why no prosecutions ?

The church consists of many entities, there's the parishes, dioceses, Irish church and Rome, not to mention the many congregations so picking up the tab is very difficult as the question of who owns what also comes into play. Regarding prosecution these characters report to Rome at least when it suits them so no need to involve the locals at least when it suits them

bodhrandude · 21-08-2018 02:18AM

Irish Kings wrote: »

I'm asking questions and I'll do so without your permission, why are you anonymously trying so hard to prevent me from doing so ?

The Pope issued a 2000 word admission today, and plenty of evidence has been produced by the media and politicians in the dial, why no arrests, never mind any trials or convictions in Ireland ?

Did they phone it in.

realitykeeper · 21-08-2018 03:50AM

The Holy Father should be welcomed. This witch hunt against the Catholic Church is dangerous. If Ireland were to enter a destabilizing period of geopolitics brought on by a great depression, there are people who would blame the Catholic church. My suggestion to Catholics who feel intimidated by these people would be to consider Orthodoxy as it is very close to Catholicism and like the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches can reasonably claim to have been founded by Christ.

Edgware · 21-08-2018 05:56AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Holy Father should be welcomed. This witch hunt against the Catholic Church is dangerous. If Ireland were to enter a destabilizing period of geopolitics brought on by a great depression, there are people who would blame the Catholic church. My suggestion to Catholics who feel intimidated by these people would be to consider Orthodoxy as it is very close to Catholicism and like the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches can reasonably claim to have been founded by Christ.

The visit should be extended and become a yearly event

erica74 · 21-08-2018 06:57AM

Irish Kings wrote: »

That didn't seem to bother them with the bondholder bailout to the tune of billions, and the good old taxpayer always foots the bills. No politician has ever been put on any hook for a state bill.

Also the Church can easily be made to pick up the tab, if found guilty in a court of law.

So what is going on ? Why not a single arrest for concealing the crimes, never mind a single trial / conviction, nor a single question in the media about why no prosecutions ?

I don't think that's the case. I have read stories about them fighting court decisions and dragging things out, certainly not easily picking up the tab.

I do think that there is something very strange about the lack of action from our government. I can't explain what.
In high profile abuse ring cases, gardai, senior government officials etc have been implicated, maybe it's a similar story here?
I think I remember when the Brendan Smyth case was going on (it may well have been a different case) there was evidence of police involvement and cover up.

Hannibal_Smith · 21-08-2018 07:47AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Holy Father should be welcomed. This witch hunt against the Catholic Church is dangerous.

I love the continuous use of the phrase 'witch hunt', as if the Catholic church is some kind of victim being persecuted. What the church did was horrendous. Crimes carried out by priests and covered up by bishops some of whom climbed the ranks to cardinal.

It took decades for the truth to finally be spoken and to be listened to. And now there is an attempt to brush it under the carpet and let by gones be by gones. Child sex abuse is too awful to let go that easily.

No one wanted these stories to be true, no one wanted it to be as extensive as it was, because that meant at the heart of it was another child who suffered. Not to mention it would mean the system we had dedicated so much time and awe to, was brutally flawed.

Cabaal · 21-08-2018 07:53AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Holy Father should be welcomed. This witch hunt against the Catholic Church is dangerous. If Ireland were to enter a destabilizing period of geopolitics brought on by a great depression, there are people who would blame the Catholic church. My suggestion to Catholics who feel intimidated by these people would be to consider Orthodoxy as it is very close to Catholicism and like the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches can reasonably claim to have been founded by Christ.

Is it a witch hunt when the witches are actually real in this case? Also claiming its a witch fund suggests there's no truth to the problems. .

The abuses happened, that is factual.

When the abuses came to public attention the Vatican went into deny mode, they even called victims liars, yet they knew what happened, that is factual.

The Vatican have records of the abuses, that is factual.

The Vatican wrote the rules to cover up abuse, that is factual.

The previous pope had knowledge of abuse in the church due to his prev role, that is factual.

At every chance the church has done its best to avoid liability to victims and to not pay out compensation, that is factual.

The Vatican has refused to provide its abuse records to, Ireland, Australia, Germany etc and even the UN, that is factual.

Abuse victims working with the Vatican have said they (the Vatican) are not doing enough to allow change, that is factual.

Yet, apparently its a witch hunt in your strange world. .
anything to deflect from the church eh?

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 08:15AM

Taytoland wrote: »

The fact that a Priest can't have sex is bizarre. It's human instincts to have sex. Get rid of the stupid rule.

Well the rule should go but not for the reasons you think...

Do you really think an otherwise heterosexual man would resort to young boys in the absence of the sex he'd prefer?

Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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