Should we protest against the pope's visit?

Discodog · 20-08-2018 05:38PM

Eric Savory Misogyny wrote: »

Have a chat with yourself.

Clearly the average parish priest in this country is not a child rapist or a supporter of them.

And to suggest that a person of faith's entire moral compass rests on the preaching of the church and that they cannot think independently is inaccurate at best.

Really ? But he is happy to speak for & be employed by an organisation that is.

RustyNut · 20-08-2018 05:40PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

RustyNut wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It is very easy for a critic to demand for the church to empty its records, and failing this acccuse her of inaction, but unless one actually know about specific records it is a pretty cynical attack. Why are we to believe there is critical evidence being buried? How can we just assume it exists?

No assumptions.

Neither the Murphy or Cloyne commissions were provided with documents sent to Rome in 2001 from both dioceses dealing with credible allegations of clerical child sexual abuse.

Then there was the Ferns inquiry, set up in March 2003. In summer 2005 it had completed a draft report when a woman came forward alleging abuse by a priest of the diocese.

The inquiry team had not heard of this priest and inquired of then administrator of the diocese Bishop mon Walsh whether there was anything in their files on him. There was, but it has not been handed over.

Blind faith indeed.

Faith. I am a rationalist but just because I disagree you accuse me of faith. You have yet to prove your claim. How do we know files were sent or concerned abuse allegations. Further, efforts have been much more comprehenisve since 13 years ago.

None so blind as those who will not see.

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 05:42PM

Discodog wrote: »

Eric Savory Misogyny wrote: »

So we should assume that every priest is a paedophile?

No but we can assume that the vast majority knew, aided & abetted in the psychological, physical & sexual abuse of children. The only innocent ones are those who went straight to the police.

It is not correct that the vast majority knew and aided. Considering that most abuse to children occurs in the home, would you apply the same standards there?

Discodog · 20-08-2018 05:42PM

Eric Savory Misogyny wrote: »

The issue between detractors and people who might attend the services is faith.

On the assumption that one is a Catholic of relatively strong faith, this is an opportunity to hear words from the man with the closest connection to God. To want to hear these words is different to declaring active support for the Vatican.

You really believe that god would choose men than openly hurt children for their own sadistic pleasure ?

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 05:45PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Look, I love debate and I love frank discussion but sometimes posts make be realise the level of education is not so high here. Mental reservation has been considered a form of lying by the church since the 1700s. Yes bad people used that excuse to claim justification in the 20th cen but it is still encoded in church teaching as a lie. It may be justified if a Nazis comes knocking on your door looking for Jews but not to protect child abusers.

Yet the lying, mental reservations, evasions and crap go on. Has the church informed its curia?

After the head of the Norbertines (Father Smyth’s Order) in Ireland resigned, the Dutch Abbot General of the Order, Father Marcel Van de Ven, met in Rome with Cardinal Daly.

The Abbot General denied that the meeting had happened, and only admitted it after a spokesperson for Cardinal Daly said it had. Van de Ven claimed that he had not lied because the church protocol was that he should not speak before the Cardinal did.

He said he had since rang the Cardinal and asked if it was known that they had met, and the Cardinal had said it was known, so he (the Abbot General) could now confirm it. “I hope you do not consider that as a lie,” he added.

https://www.michaelnugent.com/2010/03/14/cardinal-bradys-meetings-with-paedophile-priest/

B0jangles · 20-08-2018 05:47PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Look, I love debate and I love frank discussion but sometimes posts make be realise the level of education is not so high here. Mental reservation has been considered a form of lying by the church since the 1700s. Yes bad people used that excuse to claim justification in the 20th cen but it is still encoded in church teaching as a lie. It may be justified if a Nazis comes knocking on your door looking for Jews but not to protect child abusers.

So who decides whether or not the use of a 'mental reservation' is justified?

A priest?
His Bishop?
The Archbishop?

At what point do you think the church should be forced, not asked, to follow the law of the land and not behave as though it has the right to follow its own private legal system?

Discodog · 20-08-2018 05:50PM

Does the pope & the catholic church still believe that canon law supersedes civil law ?

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 05:51PM

Half including the most serious charges against Cardinal Pell dropped. Odd that it ignored by the Irish press
witch hunt

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/half-of-charges-against-cardinal-pell-dropped-but-he-still-faces-two-sex-ab

buckwheat · 20-08-2018 05:55PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Half including the most serious charges against Cardinal Pell dropped. Odd that it ignored by the Irish press
witch hunt

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/half-of-charges-against-cardinal-pell-dropped-but-he-still-faces-two-sex-ab

Fantastic. Just the two sex abuse trials so.

:rolleyes:

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 05:56PM

B0jangles wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Look, I love debate and I love frank discussion but sometimes posts make be realise the level of education is not so high here. Mental reservation has been considered a form of lying by the church since the 1700s. Yes bad people used that excuse to claim justification in the 20th cen but it is still encoded in church teaching as a lie. It may be justified if a Nazis comes knocking on your door looking for Jews but not to protect child abusers.

So who decides whether or not the use of a 'mental reservation' is justified?

A priest?
His Bishop?
The Archbishop?

At what point do you think the church should be forced, not asked, to follow the law of the land and not behave as though it has the right to follow its own private legal system?

They do have to follow the law of the land. Perhaps it is a very bad thing but extremely few people who know about crimes are charged with this. We all know that allowing abusers to abuse is morally evil but frequently it hasn't been a crime. I am not saying that is right but it is a fact.

Leroy42 · 20-08-2018 05:57PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Half including the most serious charges against Cardinal Pell dropped. Odd that it ignored by the Irish press
witch hunt

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/half-of-charges-against-cardinal-pell-dropped-but-he-still-faces-two-sex-ab

Wow, what a state of affairs when a supposed religious person is celebrating that senior cleric is ONLY on the hook for two cases of serious charges regarding child abuse.

What were the reasons for them charges being dropped?

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 05:58PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It is not correct that the vast majority knew and aided. Considering that most abuse to children occurs in the home, would you apply the same standards there?

They either knew and aided, or - the majority it seems - knew and said nothing.

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 06:00PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

They do have to follow the law of the land. Perhaps it is a very bad thing but extremely few people who know about crimes are charged with this. We all know that allowing abusers to abuse is morally evil but frequently it hasn't been a crime. I am not saying that is right but it is a fact.

....child sexual abuse hasn't been a crime when, exactly...?

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 06:08PM

That has

Odhinn wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

They do have to follow the law of the land. Perhaps it is a very bad thing but extremely few people who know about crimes are charged with this. We all know that allowing abusers to abuse is morally evil but frequently it hasn't been a crime. I am not saying that is right but it is a fact.

....child sexual abuse hasn't been a crime when, exactly...?

Obviously it has always been a crime to rape. Knowing of crime is not always a crime. Otherwise our prisons would be full of people who knew about all sorts of crimes.

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 06:11PM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Tbh Audrey, you're twisting and turning a lot which is where the confusion is coming from, for me anyway. You don't believe in the church because of its bad teachings, just in god, so you don't go to mass. But you're not boycotting mass as such, just too hungover to go, but you're not really hung over, only messing. But you're going to the biggest mass with the biggest church hitters, who are down a couple of numbers because of recent allegations, but sure hopefully the rest there on Sunday will be grand!

I was only joking about being too hungover to go - it used be the case when I was late teens and early twenties but at this stage it’s just that I’ve gotten out of the habit and that’s all.

I’ve already explained why I’m going - I’m not going to keep justifying it.

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 06:14PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

That has

Obviously it has always been a crime to rape. Knowing of crime is not always a crime. Otherwise our prisons would be full of people who knew about all sorts of crimes.

True, however it does pose a rather particular problem for an organisation that claims to be the supreme arbiter on moral matters. Even more so when you consider the obsession with extramarital sex between adults, and the related issue of contraception. Here is a church that has no problem sticking its nose into the bedroom of ordinary people, but would bend heaven and earth to hide it's own members unnatural practices.

Skylinehead · 20-08-2018 06:16PM

ricero wrote: »

Gotta say i am loving all the salty liberal atheist tears over the Popes visit. Can imagine the outrage over the weekend and early next week :pac: People need to get over themselves and realize that the catholic faith is still a strong part of this countries identity.

Mod: Stop being a dick please

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 06:22PM

Odhinn wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

That has

Obviously it has always been a crime to rape. Knowing of crime is not always a crime. Otherwise our prisons would be full of people who knew about all sorts of crimes.

True, however it does pose a rather particular problem for an organisation that claims to be the supreme arbiter on moral matters. Even more so when you consider the obsession with extramarital sex between adults, and the related issue of contraception. Here is a church that has no problem sticking its nose into the bedroom of ordinary people, but would bend heaven and earth to hide it's own members unnatural practices.

Interesting post. It sorts of repeats things that you have probably heard so much that you never even considered that they might not be true. How is there an obsession with sex? I admit to being a mass goer and it is incredibly rare to hear references to church teaching on sex. Neither do Irish church leaders or the Pope discuss it much. I am really fascinated by this claim of obsession though. I have talked to people who lived through the 1960-1980s and they repeat the same, sex was rarely discussed. If anything it was too rarely discussed considering how important it is. It seems that history is too tame for popular culture and myths have had to be invented to back up this claim like the fictional missionary position or chastity belts.

billyhead · 20-08-2018 06:31PM

Its a kick you when your down mentality with some people here. Child abuse is a deplorable crime and those responsible should face the full consequences of the law but to tarnish all priests 90% whom are decent, hard working people under the one brush is not right. Child abusers are in all walks of lifes and professions.

looksee · 20-08-2018 06:32PM

I have talked to people who lived through the 1960-1980s and they repeat the same, sex was rarely discussed.

Lol, I (and many more here) lived through the 1960-1980s and would absolutely agree, sex was not talked about. But anyone going to confession would have been very clear on the rules about everything from contraception to wifely obedience to children being told not to make up stories. If sex had been talked about all these things might have been sorted a whole lot sooner. And when the famous bishop and the nightie story was told on the LLS it was so scandalous it made headlines for weeks.

Keep it shameful, keep it to confession, don't discuss it, divide and conquer.

Edit, just as a matter of interest http://www.thejournal.ie/gay-byrne-book-extract-2600344-Feb2016/

Hannibal_Smith · 20-08-2018 06:34PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Half including the most serious charges against Cardinal Pell dropped. Odd that it ignored by the Irish press
witch hunt

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/half-of-charges-against-cardinal-pell-dropped-but-he-still-faces-two-sex-ab

It literally says in the first paragraph of the link you posted '... the Irish times has reported ' and it provides a link to the Irish Times report. It also says he still faces two allegations.

kneemos · 20-08-2018 06:40PM

billyhead wrote: »

Its a kick you when your down mentality with some people here. Child abuse is a deplorable crime and those responsible should face the full consequences of the law but to tarnish all priests 90% whom are decent, hard working people under the one brush is not right. Child abusers are in all walks of lifes and professions.

I suspect most people have an issue with what is obviously an official world-wide policy of cover up,deny and refuse to cooperate.

Leroy42 · 20-08-2018 06:40PM

billyhead wrote: »

Its a kick you when your down mentality with some people here. Child abuse is a deplorable crime and those responsible should face the full consequences of the law but to tarnish all priests 90% whom are decent, hard working people under the one brush is not right. Child abusers are in all walks of lifes and professions.

Who claimed all priests? Its the organisation.

Hence why there isn't protests outside the local church each.

Leroy42 · 20-08-2018 06:43PM

An_Tiorpin, you are continuing to run on the basis on what the CC can do legally. Whether something is an actual crime or not.

So far from being a moral leader, it simply waits for somebody in the jurisdiction to create a law. They may have known about, but since the law didn't explicitly tell them that it wrong then they are ok?

Really? I thought christian's got there morals from the bible? It seems moral are totally man made, and based on what law is in place at the time.

Discodog · 20-08-2018 06:44PM

billyhead wrote: »

Its a kick you when your down mentality with some people here. Child abuse is a deplorable crime and those responsible should face the full consequences of the law but to tarnish all priests 90% whom are decent, hard working people under the one brush is not right. Child abusers are in all walks of lifes and professions.

Are you saying that this 90% had no idea that abuse was taking place ? Abuse isn't just sexual.

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 06:45PM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Half including the most serious charges against Cardinal Pell dropped. Odd that it ignored by the Irish press
witch hunt

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/half-of-charges-against-cardinal-pell-dropped-but-he-still-faces-two-sex-ab

It literally says in the first paragraph of the link you posted '... the Irish times has reported ' and it provides a link to the Irish Times report. It also says he still faces two allegations.

It was not totally ignored by the Irish media but it was mostly was ignored. Even the Irish Times headline was biased b failing to mention charges being dropped. The main text makes a simple stealth mention of charges being dropped but nothing more. Pell is a huge name and when the charges were made it was in all the outlets but if charges are being dropped then it is a non-story. Pure manipulation.

looksee;107842552

I have talked to people who lived through the 1960-1980s and they repeat the same, sex was rarely discussed.

Lol, I (and many more here) lived through the 1960-1980s and would absolutely agree, sex was not talked about. But anyone going to confession would have been very clear on the rules about everything from contraception to wifely obedience to children being told not to make up stories. If sex had been talked about all these things might have been sorted a whole lot sooner. And when the famous bishop and the nightie story was told on the LLS it was so scandalous it made headlines for weeks.

Keep it shameful, keep it to confession, don't discuss it, divide and conquer.

The nightie scandal was not really a scandal at all though. RTE received 1-2 complaints! Joke!

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 06:46PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Interesting post. It sorts of repeats things that you have probably heard so much that you never even considered that they might not be true. How is there an obsession with sex? I admit to being a mass goer and it is incredibly rare to hear references to church teaching on sex. Neither do Irish church leaders or the Pope discuss it much. I am really fascinated by this claim of obsession though. I have talked to people who lived through the 1960-1980s and they repeat the same, sex was rarely discussed. If anything it was too rarely discussed considering how important it is. It seems that history is too tame for popular culture and myths have had to be invented to back up this claim like the fictional missionary position or chastity belts.

.....you're confusing talking about sex in detail or some educational way and talking of the "morals" involved. And I lived through the 1980's.

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 06:49PM

billyhead wrote: »

Its a kick you when your down mentality with some people here. Child abuse is a deplorable crime and those responsible should face the full consequences of the law but to tarnish all priests 90% whom are decent, hard working people under the one brush is not right. Child abusers are in all walks of lifes and professions.

It may come as a shock to you, but a priests loyalty is primarily to his fellows, and most of those "decent hard working people" will throw you under the bus if it ever comes to a choice. Been there, done that, as have many others.

An_Toirpin · 20-08-2018 06:50PM

Odhinn wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Interesting post. It sorts of repeats things that you have probably heard so much that you never even considered that they might not be true. How is there an obsession with sex? I admit to being a mass goer and it is incredibly rare to hear references to church teaching on sex. Neither do Irish church leaders or the Pope discuss it much. I am really fascinated by this claim of obsession though. I have talked to people who lived through the 1960-1980s and they repeat the same, sex was rarely discussed. If anything it was too rarely discussed considering how important it is. It seems that history is too tame for popular culture and myths have had to be invented to back up this claim like the fictional missionary position or chastity belts.

.....you're confusing talking about sex in detail or some educational way and talking of the "morals" involved. And I lived through the 1980's.

Well if sex was rarely discussed and preached about it deeply undermines the idea of celibate sex obsessed priests.

Odhinn · 20-08-2018 06:52PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Well if sex was rarely discussed and preached about it deeply undermines the idea of celibate sex obsessed priests.

Stop being obtuse. It was preached about, and notoriously so.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/1916/rising-perspectives/how-the-church-made-ireland-a-society-rife-with-hypocrisy-and-sexual-guilt-34138667.html

Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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