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Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

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    #92
    Skedaddle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Skedaddle


    There are light rail systems that can deal with hills. Cork had one 100 years ago. You just have a slightly different wheel design and special tracks on the hilly bits. Or, you can uae rubber wheels.


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    #93
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,380 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod:
    zetalambda wrote: »
    Obviously, you'd need to install train elevators at the base of any hill. Alternatively, a lower cost solution would be to attach giant helium balloons which could be inflated and deflated on a whim allowing you to float up and down the hills.


    Answering a serious question with a joke is not very funny.


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    #94
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,225 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Serious question, how would a light rail system work when you consider how many hills there are in Cork City

    Heuston to James on the Red Line in Dublin has quite a steep gradient.


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    #95
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Heuston to James on the Red Line in Dublin has quite a steep gradient.

    Come back to me with your steep, when you cycle from Old Youghal Road to Fairfield, boy.


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    #96
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-from-the-atlantic-corridor-to-20000-school-places-how-the-116bn-investment-in-irelands-future-will-be-spent-36609590.html

    According to the Indo a light rail system for Cork is in the new Capital Plan to be published tomorrow.

    Is it too early to get excited?


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    #97
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,072 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    marno21 wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-from-the-atlantic-corridor-to-20000-school-places-how-the-116bn-investment-in-irelands-future-will-be-spent-36609590.html

    According to the Indo a light rail system for Cork is in the new Capital Plan to be published tomorrow.

    Is it too early to get excited?

    Yeah. According to the Echo what's being announced is a feasibility study. We have one of those already from 2010 gathering dust in City Hall.


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    #98
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,563 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    marno21 wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-from-the-atlantic-corridor-to-20000-school-places-how-the-116bn-investment-in-irelands-future-will-be-spent-36609590.html

    According to the Indo a light rail system for Cork is in the new Capital Plan to be published tomorrow.

    Is it too early to get excited?

    Yeah. According to the Echo what's being announced is a feasibility study. We have one of those already from 2010 gathering dust in City Hall.
    There is one underway as we speak, being released in June as a part of the Docklands development plan. I guess that this will commit funding to the result, be that BRT or Light Rail. we'll see at 2pm I guess.


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    #99
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    snotboogie wrote: »
    There is one underway as we speak, being released in June as a part of the Docklands development plan. I guess that this will commit funding to the result, be that BRT or Light Rail. we'll see at 2pm I guess.

    Anymore details on this plan. It has been announced but are they going back to the drawing board, yet again?


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    #100
    Skedaddle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Skedaddle


    It'll take a while to come up with a plan. It's hardly surprising they're throwing out ideas and concepts. They're really only at the very preliminary stages of developing a plan.

    BRT may be more practical on the Northside because of the very steep hills. But bear in mind the southside isn't exactly flat either. Getting to Carrigaline for example would require some degree of hill climbing or rerouting.

    Tbh whether it's running on metal wheels or tyres is irrelevant as long as the user experience, capacity and frequency is the same.


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    #101
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,563 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    markodaly wrote: »
    snotboogie wrote: »
    There is one underway as we speak, being released in June as a part of the Docklands development plan. I guess that this will commit funding to the result, be that BRT or Light Rail. we'll see at 2pm I guess.

    Anymore details on this plan. It has been announced but are they going back to the drawing board, yet again?
    It seems to be the 2040 plan piggybacking on or committing to (whichever way you want to look at it) the existing study


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    #102
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Skedaddle wrote: »
    BRT may be more practical on the Northside because of the very steep hills. But bear in mind the southside isn't exactly flat either. Getting to Carrigaline for example would require some degree of hill climbing or rerouting.
    .
    Considering they are going to build a motorway to Carrigaline, I doubt a non-bus solution will be provided there...


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    #103
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Considering they are going to build a motorway to Carrigaline, I doubt a non-bus solution will be provided there...

    If a BRT line was built to Mahon Point, how hard would it be to link up the end of the M28 with the start of the BRT line? Would be a good option to get buses easier into the city centre and would increase usage of any potential BRT line.


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    #104
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    zetalambda wrote:
    Cork is more suited to light rail rather than expanded bus infrastructure but even at the mere suggestion of using the old Blackrock Passage line about 10 years ago for BRT or tram, there was a lot of resistance by the locals who want it to remain as a walking/cycling amenity.

    I agree with this. The old Blackrock line runs from Pairc Ui Chaiomh to Mahon, basically the ideal corridor you'd want from a Light Rail system, given its integration with the Docklands.

    Should it be used or retained as a "greenway"?


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    #105
    zetalambda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 822 ✭✭✭zetalambda


    marno21 wrote: »
    I agree with this. The old Blackrock line runs from Pairc Ui Chaiomh to Mahon, basically the ideal corridor you'd want from a Light Rail system, given its integration with the Docklands.

    Should it be used or retained as a "greenway"?

    The thing is I've always thought that with a bit of imagination and the will, it can be used for a public transport corridor whilst also retaining the Greenway amenity. It's quite wide in some areas, certainly wide enough for both and where it gets narrow they could divert the Greenway up to the top of the embankments on either side. There's plenty of room at the top of those embankments from Blackrock road right down as far as Mahon point. The only real pinch point is just beyond Blackrock road in the direction of the city as its solid rock there both sides.

    I think as soon as we see some large developments for the docklands start construction, e.g. the ford site, we'll be a lot closer to an east west light rail system in Cork which could be sooner rather than later. Honestly, I think the suggestion of a BRT that can be upgraded to light rail at a later date is a waste of time and just an excuse to keep public transport infrastructure spending at a minimum. Are there even any examples of where this has been done? I can't see how it could be done without causing massive disruptions.


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    #106
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    BRT works best when it's on a dedicated, purpose designed route, with platforms and imlíne stops.., same as a tram, there is a small bit more flexibility in moving the route to take in new developments... And obviously trams are electric whereas brt buses would more likely be diesel or hybrid...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #107
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,380 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Markcheese wrote: »
    BRT works best when it's on a dedicated, purpose designed route, with platforms and imlíne stops.., same as a tram, there is a small bit more flexibility in moving the route to take in new developments... And obviously trams are electric whereas brt buses would more likely be diesel or hybrid...

    Or even battery.

    They could also be O/H electric, but then would be called trolley buses.


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    #108
    Neworder79
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    Markcheese wrote: »
    And obviously trams are electric whereas brt buses would more likely be diesel or hybrid...

    Seriously... for a next-generation transport project is there no clean air alternative to buying more diesel engines in 2018.

    Air quality is poor along many of these corridors as outlined by EPA study last year, and we now have lots of scientific evidence of the serious health damage caused by these pollutants and to the quality of the environment.

    Cities like Sydney switched to zero-emissions natural Gas alternatives over 20 years ago!
    ---

    Edit: Happy to see they are looking at CNG https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/cleaner-technology/


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    #109
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,485 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Neworder79 wrote: »
    Seriously... for a next-generation transport project is there no clean air alternative to buying more diesel engines in 2018.

    Air quality is poor along many of these corridors as outlined by EPA study last year, and we now have lots of scientific evidence of the serious health damage caused by these pollutants and to the quality of the environment.

    Cities like Sydney switched to zero-emissions natural Gas alternatives over 20 years ago!

    A few points, from end 2018 the NTA plans to start buying alternative energy buses, likely either hybrids or bio-fuel buses.

    Second point, modern Diesel buses with Euro 6 engines are actually very clean. No not zero, but close. They have to follow very strict emission limits and rigorous testing.

    Actually the bigger issue is all the Diesel cars. As we discovered with Dieselgate they are polluting terribly. In fact a little Volkswagen Golf actually produces significantly more pollution then a modern Dublin Bus even when the bus is empty! Add 80 people to a bus and it is actually one of the cleanest modes of transport, with only Luas/Dart topping it.

    That is why making buses even better hasn't really been a priority, surprisingly there are much worse offenders to deal with first (e.g. cars).


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    #110
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Heuston to James on the Red Line in Dublin has quite a steep gradient.


    A tram line could avoid gradients in Cork. Start with one line east to west - eg from Bishopstown to Mahon via Patrick Street and Kent station. It could have Mahon and Douglas spurs at the east end and Bishopstown and Ballincollig spurs at the other. The tram could serve CUH, UCC, CIT, Kent Station/bus station and other campuses with a large number of visitors.

    Zurich has 16 tram lines despite being a hilly city, There are very few bus routes in the centre - only trams. Buses tend to feed traffic to the nearest tram stop, outside the centre.

    It would allow Patrick St to become bus free and car free - a la Bahnhofstrasse in Zurich. i.e. a high quality clean air environment with very few vehicular movements. Almost 80% of journeys in Zurich are on public transport thanks to its integrated ticketing system. No dumb, expensive RFID cards as used by Leap. A bog simple card ticket with random inspections, and a fine of EUR 100 for not having a valid ticket on board. Tickets can range in validity from 2h to a day, a week, a month or a year. When the tickets are randomly inspected, they can be sampled by a barcode reading machine - allowing statistical sampling to measure usage levels on each service, and how frequently each ticket holder uses their ticket. There are many public transport companies in Zurich that use the same ticket system, sharing revenue based on their contribution to carrying people over distance. This can include suburban rail and water based transport. All modes must use a common zone system - ideally zones structured like postal districts (only larger). Eg T12 and T23 in Cork could be one public transport zone. The zone system in Dublin is poorly ‘designed’ because buses and trams and trains all have their own ‘zone’ design. An integrated ticketing system requires identical zone layout.

    Where there are steep hills, funicular rail brings people down steep slopes to a tram station to continue their journey. This is found in Zurich, Lugano, Genoa, Bergamo and many other hilly cities. In Barcelona they use escalators, and in Genoa there are public elevators, with a tunnel to get to the elevator at the low level.

    Bus feeding to trams is popular, as the tram becomes part of the fun of getting to a destination. Buses by themselves are boring and polluting. In Zurich, trams run every five minutes of so - the feeder buses provide a large volume of travellers to the tram system. The entire bus route system would be re-focussed on suburbia and filling the tram system - causing a minimum of chaos in the city.

    The traffic signals need to be tram prioritised - so a ‘red light’ is never allowed to stop a tram. In Zurich a tram can come up to a junction with a red light against it at 50 km/h, and by the time it reaches the junction, the light is ‘green’. The tram driver doesn’t have to touch the brake, and it only takes 5 seconds or so for the tram to clear the junction. The light immediately returns to give vehicles a green light, after the tram has cleared the junction. It uses sensors to precisely measure these movements.

    Luas has a problem at many junctions in Dublin, The tram is forced to stop at a light, and time-wastingly accelerate away when it turns ‘green’. It takes far longer for a long tram to clear a junction, under such conditions. This in turn creates chaos and makes the road system less efficient.

    Bike lanes in Cork have been a huge waste of resources. A wet hilly city, in a wet country is hardly ideal for bikes. Aside from ‘sunny day’ use - which is not a sustainable transport solution.

    A solution has to be developed which makes the majority of people feel that public transport is so convenient, it is not worth taking the car out of the garage - due to traffic delays, parking costs, etc


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    #111
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Cork is small (and as you say hilly) it'd be great to get a couple of light rail or decent BRT routes, but the mainstay of public transport is still going to be buses... And while I agree with you about the bus lanes being a waste, its more because they lanes are crap than the unsuitability of Cork to bikes... (half of the lanes start and finish in pedestrian crossings at every junction), plus their are very few bike parking spots... Rain is rain walking or cycling...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #112
    Collio729
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Collio729


    29016139467_1a939f8f66_m.jpg

    Made a very unrealistic rail/tram map for cork lol. Alot of the city centre stations are suppose to be underground btw. Couldnt fit alll tram stations in, so i will make another tram one


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    #113
    man98
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    The trial car ban has restarted on Patrick Street, with a better connection on the Park + Ride and €1 bus fares all around Cork City. Will this be the start of a longer term car ban? Hopefully. Hopefully it's also a good sign for the future of light rail in the city.


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    #114
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,563 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Collio729 wrote: »
    29016139467_1a939f8f66_m.jpg

    Made a very unrealistic rail/tram map for cork lol. Alot of the city centre stations are suppose to be underground btw. Couldnt fit alll tram stations in, so i will make another tram one
    I can't really see it, the image is too small


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    #115
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Collio729 wrote: »
    29016139467_1a939f8f66_m.jpg

    Made a very unrealistic rail/tram map for cork lol. Alot of the city centre stations are suppose to be underground btw. Couldnt fit alll tram stations in, so i will make another tram one

    If you're talking dream scenarios, it would be comparatively simple to get rail up the Glashaboy river, the existing road is quite wide and the difficult spots would be getting through Dunkettle and Glanmire village and connecting into Riverstown somewhere appropriate. But fundamentally it's flat ground, the train lines are there to link into and there's a big enough population out there.


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    #116
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Rail into glanmire? It's not that populated... And it's very spread out...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #117
    Collio729
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Collio729


    https://www.flickr.com/photos/160024001@N05/29016139467/in/dateposted-public/#

    For anyone who cant see the map clearly.


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    #118
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Rail into glanmire? It's not that populated... And it's very spread out...

    It's about half (ish) the size of Ballincollig or Carrigaline, and has a fairly significant increase in housing approved by ABP. Would expect it to be well over the 10k people mark within 5 years.
    While it might not service a huge existing demand, it's a relatively straightforward engineering spend to link it into the existing rail line, and it's close to the Cork-Dublin road, so you could have lots of Red-Cow-like opportunities.

    And again we ARE talking pure pie-in-the-sky and unrealistic plans here, I think we all accept that from the outset.


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    #119
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 979 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Collio729 wrote: »
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/160024001@N05/29016139467/in/dateposted-public/#

    For anyone who cant see the map clearly.

    Given the success of the Deise Greenway and the planned one Waterford to New Ross I cant see that Cork-Rosslaire line coming about.... would be a hell of a cycle though!


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    #120
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057862889/31

    User cgcsb has inside knowledge of the yet to be published study which seems to propose a line between Ballincollig and Mahon via Kent Station. One further line in future for airport access.


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    #121
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057862889/31

    User cgcsb has inside knowledge of the yet to be published study which seems to propose a line between Ballincollig and Mahon via Kent Station. One further line in future for airport access.

    Haven't city Council been pushing this idea for the last 15 years or so..
    ( I remember going to an exhibition in the oriel Hotel, about 15 years ago, hosted by by cork City Council, Cork County Council, and Irish rail/bus eirean, plan was either tram or Brt (leaning towards trams), mahon to ballincolig.. Not sure if it was via Kent.. May have just had a pedestrian bridge..)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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