Those in jail should be forced to go litter picking.

corner of hells · 12-08-2018 07:37PM

tom1ie wrote: »

So you ignored the bit about the defense forces. Good man.

You do have a point , we do use the defence forces for keeping an eye on the lads in Port Laoise , though it be a hard sell to get a loan of a view soldiers to guard a couple of lads picking up litter.

McMurphy · 12-08-2018 07:37PM

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

They tried that with the Gateway scheme. I was unemployed at the time and was called up for it. Council staff were dismissive, rude and refused to work or supervise the Gateway people. Was called to a halt after about 3 weeks.

Offering opportunities for useful training to help unemployed get confidence and skills to get back to work is a better idea than punitive measures. But there's always pricks like you (funnily enough they tend to have never experienced the soul destroying existence on 188 a week) who want to kick people when they are down would rather the unemployed be humiliated.

You're a bit too quick to jump the gun there horse, anyone half familiar with my views would know that Im fairly left of centre, and my post above was by no way shape or form penned to have a dig or put anyone down who may be on the dole.

The key part of my post was long term dole collecters. IE those who haven't worked In years, able bodied but choosing welfare as a lifestyle choice.

I would be a strong supporter of the idea that the dole is someway tied to your earnings, and those who have been working for years that have contributed highly to the tax coffers should get some recognition of this should they ever be unlucky enough to have to rely on a fixed income, so at least that fixed income could have some kind of semblance to what that person was earning pre being unemployed.

Reviewed each year they continue to be out of work.

tom1ie · 12-08-2018 07:42PM

corner of hells wrote: »

You do have a point , we do use the defence forces for keeping an eye on the lads in Port Laoise , though it be a hard sell to get a loan of a view soldiers to guard a couple of lads picking up litter.

Would it though? If ya done a litter pick along the dodder with 3 gangs in one area, that’d require 3 wardens and say 4 or 5 soldiers who could patrol the 3 gangs. 1 soldier permanently in each gang and the remaining two patrolling between the three. The soldiers are getting paid anyway, the wardens get their double time and the prisoners have their incentive to pick up litter, ie reducing their sentence and being out in the open under supervision.
Anyway as I said these prisoners would be low level dangerous so the level of a breakaway would be fairly low.

tom1ie · 12-08-2018 07:43PM

bubblypop wrote: »

One prison officer to five prisoners??!
Seriously.
You don't know much about these things.........

Ok so what do you think the ratio should be clever clogs? 1 warden to 2 prisoners? Plus the soldier(s)? It’s not Charles Bronson we’d be letting out.

corner of hells · 12-08-2018 07:50PM

tom1ie wrote: »

Would it though? If ya done a litter pick along the dodder with 3 gangs in one area, that’d require 3 wardens and say 4 or 5 soldiers who could patrol the 3 gangs. 1 soldier permanently in each gang and the remaining two patrolling between the three. The soldiers are getting paid anyway, the wardens get their double time and the prisoners have their incentive to pick up litter, ie reducing their sentence and being out in the open under supervision.
Anyway as I said these prisoners would be low level dangerous so the level of a breakaway would be fairly low.

A soldier might be along shortly to confirm the details , but I think if you have armed soldiers in public , you need radio communication to a barracks and secure transit. I think you might need a Garda somewhere close too.

Can you see where we are going with this ? Soldiers go to the prison , support the prison officers during the trip to the litter pick up , soldier guards the radio and transport , unless we get a Leap card and send them on the Luas , it's going to be pretty expensive.

How bout we just use a soldier sniper to kill the litterers ?

tom1ie · 12-08-2018 08:12PM

corner of hells wrote: »

A soldier might be along shortly to confirm the details , but I think if you have armed soldiers in public , you need radio communication to a barracks and secure transit. I think you might need a Garda somewhere close too.

Can you see where we are going with this ? Soldiers go to the prison , support the prison officers during the trip to the litter pick up , soldier guards the radio and transport , unless we get a Leap card and send them on the Luas , it's going to be pretty expensive.

How bout we just use a soldier sniper to kill the litterers ?[/QUOTE
But how is this going to cost extra? The soldier is getting paid a days wages. The prison officer is getting a days wages (albeit I’ve suggested double time when they’re on a litter pick). Soldier guarding the radio and transport isn’t getting paid any extra? 5 soldiers covers 3 gangs. Those 5 soldiers are going to pick up a days wages anyway.

12-08-2018 10:11PM

tom1ie wrote: »

So you ignored the bit about the defense forces. Good man.

Woman.
& I don't think for one second think our defence forces could be used as prison officers watching people pick up litter.
What do you think their job is?

tuxy · 12-08-2018 10:14PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Woman.
& I don't think for one second think our defence forces could be used as prison officers watching people pick up litter.
What do you think their job is?

The defense forces already do security in prisons on a regular basis. OPs idea is still stupid though.

12-08-2018 10:16PM

tom1ie wrote: »

Ok so what do you think the ratio should be clever clogs? 1 warden to 2 prisoners? Plus the soldier(s)? It’s not Charles Bronson we’d be letting out.

What do you think the ratio is now?
When prison officers escort prisoners to hospital or court for example?
As I said, soldiers are not prison officers, except in portlaosise where they handle the security.
It's not their job, they wouldn't do it & prison officers are not going to allow soldiers to take over their jobs.
Would you pay the soldiers more for example, if they did this duty?
The cost alone of bringing supervised prisoners out would be huge.
I get the idea though, sounds great, but in reality would never work.

12-08-2018 10:17PM

tuxy wrote: »

The defense forces already do security in prisons on a regular basis. OPs idea is still stupid though.

One prison. A legacy issue

tom1ie · 12-08-2018 10:25PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Woman.
& I don't think for one second think our defence forces could be used as prison officers watching people pick up litter.
What do you think their job is?

They would be there as a deterrent to stop the prisoner running away,and back up to the prison guard, which I have already stated. The prison guard would have responsibility.
Why can’t they be used as such.

tom1ie · 12-08-2018 10:26PM

tuxy wrote: »

The defense forces already do security in prisons on a regular basis. OPs idea is still stupid though.

Why is it stupid?

corner of hells · 12-08-2018 10:32PM

tom1ie wrote: »

Why is it stupid?

Can you really see an armed soldier chasing a prisoner along the Dodder ?

tom1ie · 12-08-2018 10:33PM

bubblypop wrote: »

What do you think the ratio is now?
When prison officers escort prisoners to hospital or court for example?
As I said, soldiers are not prison officers, except in portlaosise where they handle the security.
It's not their job, they wouldn't do it & prison officers are not going to allow soldiers to take over their jobs.
Would you pay the soldiers more for example, if they did this duty?
The cost alone of bringing supervised prisoners out would be huge.
I get the idea though, sounds great, but in reality would never work.

So they are doing it already in portlaoise so there’s a precedent.
How do you know they wouldn’t do it? If army top brass decide they should do it then they’ll do it.
Why would you pay the soldiers more? They’re getting paid for the day anyway. It’s just another mission.
Explain how the cost would be huge?
Soldiers required, ok. Soldiers get brought in and get paid for the day that they were going to get paid for anyway.
Prison officer required, ok. Offer double time when on a litter pick crew and prison officer will jump at that.
Prisoner not motivated, ok. Reduce prison sentence when prisoner actively partakes in the scheme.
Prisoner is an idiot and tries to run away,ok. Automatic loss of remission and back before a judge for consecutive sentencing.

tom1ie · 12-08-2018 10:35PM

corner of hells wrote: »

Can you really see an armed soldier chasing a prisoner along the Dodder ?

No, the prisoner won’t run as he would lose his automatic remission and be back before a judge for further sentencing. The soldier is a further deterrent.

12-08-2018 10:47PM

What's the difference in salary for a soldier & a prison officer?
Do you think they should do the same job for different money?
I can bet they don't.

corner of hells · 12-08-2018 10:54PM

tom1ie wrote: »

No, the prisoner won’t run as he would lose his automatic remission and be back before a judge for further sentencing. The soldier is a further deterrent.

Ya don't know many prisoners ....

doolox · 12-08-2018 10:55PM

A prison had high walls.

A prison has several locked doors between the inside and the outside.

A prison has nearly one prison officer to every prisoner when they are in the common areas during rest or recreation.

At all other times when staff are doing other duties the prisoners are locked in individual or two or three to a cell.

Having prisoners outside in a public space would need huge levels of security.

It would look bad to the general public and would debase the good name of the State. We are bad enough dealing with the aftermath of a riot when the guards get slated for any heavy handed treatment of rioters.

The general public could not stomach the sight on a daily basis of people being restrained or beaten while trying to escape especially if the beating was being done by men employed by the State.

I could not imagine any Minister having to defend such actions or defending the escape of prisoners on the loose after getting away from their guards while on such duty. The costs of such an exercise would heavily outweigh the slight benefits, if any.

For any Minister of Justice it would be a short cut to resignation and eternal damnation in the back benches. I could not imagine such a minister getting re-elected.

Chancer3001 · 12-08-2018 10:58PM

5 other jobs

Painting houses.
Painting shops
Cutting grass
Powerhosing streets
Weeding

I couk d think of another 50

freshpopcorn · 12-08-2018 11:18PM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

5 other jobs

Painting houses.
Painting shops
Cutting grass
Powerhosing streets
Weeding

I couk d think of another 50

I know a lot of people who do these jobs. Some through scheme and some professionals.
I don't think they'd want a few lads from jail taking their work.

Horusire · 12-08-2018 11:18PM

The defence forces is currently in complete chaos and can't retain soldiers. And you now want to load on more duties for no extra money while simultaneously paying the prison guard double time... Good luck with that

dxhound2005 · 12-08-2018 11:24PM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

5 other jobs

Painting houses.
Painting shops
Cutting grass
Powerhosing streets
Weeding

I couk d think of another 50

I can only think of another two. Fixing potholes and rat catching. What else is on your list.

whisky_galore · 13-08-2018 09:36AM

The prison service and the gardai have enough on their hands trying to keep lads escaping as it is.

Letting them outside to pick rubbish? It'd be Keystone Kops stuff.

Berserker · 13-08-2018 10:04AM

100% in favour of this. Get them out of their cells for a few hours doing something good for the community.

corner of hells wrote: »

Can you really see an armed soldier chasing a prisoner along the Dodder ?

The prisoners would be wearing legcuffs.

Henry Ford III · 13-08-2018 10:19AM

I reckon a bit of work in the community would actually be a good idea for prisoners.

DChancer · 13-08-2018 10:29AM

tom1ie wrote: »

Went for a walk today along the dodder. The levels of plastic bottles, bags aluminum cans etc is astronomical. So it got me to thinking, why can’t we use people locked up in prison to go out and clean up these areas.
Obviously:
Under heavy supervision.
Low level offenders, ie no murderers rapists etc.

It seems they are a resource we pay for, by housing and feeding etc, but we get no return from them.

So use slave labour prison chain gangs instead of actually hiring more street sweepers and litter wardens?

Where is the sense in that?

ohnonotgmail · 13-08-2018 10:30AM

Too many people on this thread have watched Cool Hand Luke and rooted for the warden.

jjbrien · 13-08-2018 10:31AM

Berserker wrote: »

100% in favour of this. Get them out of their cells for a few hours doing something good for the community.

The prisoners would be wearing legcuffs.

Turning the place into America then? They do this in the states.

Instead of using prisoners to pick up litter make it a community service sentence for people who have committed minor crimes, no needs to use prisoners.

tom1ie · 13-08-2018 12:09PM

DChancer wrote: »

So use slave labour prison chain gangs instead of actually hiring more street sweepers and litter wardens?

Where is the sense in that?

Slave labor?
These people owe a debt to society. They can reduce their sentence by actively partaking in this and repaying their debt to society. Not so sure about the leg cuffs idea but electronic tagging could be used.

tom1ie · 13-08-2018 12:12PM

jjbrien wrote: »

Turning the place into America then? They do this in the states.

Instead of using prisoners to pick up litter make it a community service sentence for people who have committed minor crimes, no needs to use prisoners.

Yeah people on the dole long term and community sentence for minor crimes would work. I think prisoners on the low level dangerous scale could be used and this would give them a sense of achievement and something to work for. Again I’m not talking about letting out armed burglars, murderers, rapists etc.

Those in jail should be forced to go litter picking.

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