Solicitor Fees

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 11:18AM #1

Hello everyone, is it normal for a solicitor to charge a client for being asked to show how he arrived at the figure of fees he is charging?
I have a couple of friends whose solicitor sent them a bill for just one under €5000 fees. He stated the work done but not how the figure of €5000 was arrived at. My friends asked him if he would say how that figure had been calculated. His response was that if they wanted that info it would need to go to a cost accountant and they would incur additional €600+VAT in fees for the information.
I contacted the Law Society for help but got someone who simply kept saying the Society didn't have an information are ( they have leaflets on the website which she didn't seem aware of!), constantly interrupted me and finally abruptly terminated the call. If that's the Society then heaven help the lay person!
Anyway,is the above charging normal please?

randomrb · 09-08-2018 12:40PM

Was he disputing the fees or asking for a breakdown? If he was disputing the fees then it wouldnt be uncommon to send them to a cost accountant which can be expensive.

However it is very difficult to comment on this without the full facts. If you want to make a complaint to the law society it should be in writing setting out the full circumstances of the case and their issue

Stanford · 09-08-2018 12:52PM

"Hello everyone, is it normal for a solicitor to charge a client for being asked to show how he arrived at the figure of fees he is charging?"

No it is not normal, a Solicitor is obliged to itemise fees charged to his client which should clearly show professional fees, outlay and VAT

Melendez · 09-08-2018 01:02PM

This post has been deleted.

Stanford · 09-08-2018 01:13PM

This is correct, before taking on a new Client the Solicitor must get the Client to sign a document outlying the hourly costs of a partner, junior Solicitor etc. although it may not be possible to clearly estimate the cost of work up front, however the client is entitled the see a breakdown of his/her bill as per the attached Law Society publication.

cstaff · 09-08-2018 01:13PM

Even if he was disputing the fees it is not uncommon for a client to ask a solicitor for a breakdown of how he reached his fees. Most solicitors will have a record of the hours that they worked and what they did at any particular time i.e. draft a contract, write a letter, have a telephone call with solicitor on the other side etc.

Tell your friend to ask his solicitor for a detailed bill - not just fee, VAT and outlays - but exactly the hours put in and what was done at any given time he was working on his file.

Also the solicitor should have sent your friend a Section 68 letter at the start his dealing giving him an estimate of the fees that will be charged.

TheIronyMaiden · 09-08-2018 02:14PM

As most of the other posters have said, I can't see any reason why the solicitor won't give a breakdown. I've just bought a house and the solicitor issued me with a quote outlining what each of the various things costs (their own fee, various searches, stamp duty etc) before the whole process had even started

Stanford · 09-08-2018 02:55PM

See page 2 in the Law Society booklet attached to me post above where it reads@

When you get your bill, it will include:

- your solicitor’s professional fee for their work (rates x hours);
- charges for general expenses, such as stationery or postage;
- other charges for people or organisations such as the Property
- Registration Authority, other Government agencies or experts; and
- VAT.

Professional fees are computed from a breakdown of number of hours multiplied by the rates contained in the Section 68 letter, refusal to provide a Client with this information is grounds for complaint to the Law Society

09-08-2018 03:52PM

Need to look for a Section 68 letter...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/27/section/68/enacted/en/html
https://www.lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/Practising/Practice-Notes/The-Dos-And-Donts-Of-Section-68/#.W2xivtJKhaQ

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 04:12PM

Thank you all so much for your very helpful replies.
The Solicitor took instructions from my friends in May 2014.
In Jan 2017, Solicitor wrote saying " as case now progressed to awaiting trial I wish to take this opportunity to update you of the position with regards to costs. Unfortunately it is not possible to gie a precise estimate of the likely costs involved. As you have a very good case we are confident that the vast majority of your costs will be paid by the Defendant but now take this opportunity to outline the factors taken into account in charging legal services payable by you but ultimately recoverable in whole or part from the Defendant" ( Costs have been reduced by Registrar following taxation,by €1250.00).
Letter then describes various circs eg importance and complexity, urgency of matter to client etc.
Continues that " time spent is usual " yard stick"( whatever that means. Why can't Solicitors think from client perspective?).
States basic hourly rate,VAT, etc etc. Law Society leaflet re legal costs was also sent.
But when payment request was received,it simply listed work done and gave one,total cost figure. My friends have asked for a breakdown of that figure ie, work done; time spent on each task and cost charged for each task and what hourly rate was used. They have said that request will cost €600+VAT which I feel is scandalous. It means that unless you pay,a lawyer can present any figure and not have to explain how he calculated it which is surely not right.
Any further comments would be most welcome

Stanford · 09-08-2018 04:23PM

[IAs you have a very good case we are confident that the vast majority of your costs will be paid by the Defendant but now take this opportunity to outline the factors taken into account in charging legal services payable by you but ultimately recoverable in whole or part from the Defendant"][/I]

That is an outrageous statement for a Solicitor in litigation to make, the only person who will determine liability and costs to be paid (if any) will be a Judge if the matter goes to Court.

Suggest the Solicitor be written to by the Client asking for the full fee and outlay breakdown as above and stating that the matter will be the subject of a complaint to the Law Society if the relevant information is not provided at no additional cost to the client forthwidth.

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 04:30PM

Stanford, thank you so much. My personal opinion is that this smacks of sharp practice. Agree that complaint to KSVseems appropriate.
Might I ask one more thing please? In an earlier reply it was said that my friends should have SIGNED something about costs at the beginning of the relationship. Could you expand on that a little please? Many thanks.

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 04:30PM

Sorry,should read LS not KSV!

Stanford · 09-08-2018 04:37PM

Yes, Upon engaging a new client a Solicitor is obliged to provide the client with what is known as a Section 68 letter which both parties sign, it advises the client as follows

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/Practising/Practice-Notes/The-dos-and-donts-of-section-681/#.W2xtPehKi70

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 04:46PM

Thank you for that Stamford. I want to get this Solicitor to confirm this in writing so I have it in support of any complaint.

Stanford · 09-08-2018 04:59PM

Here is the above extract from the Solicitors (Amendment) Act, 1994 covering Section 68 letters.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/27/section/68/enacted/en/html

I would suggest that the Client (or you if you are the Client) write to the Solicitor in question and outline that you wish to be provided with a Section 68 letter showing the full breakdown of the invoice at question to include professional fees (practice hours and rates), outlay, VAT and all other components of the invoice, state that you cannot make an assessment of the reasonableness or otherwise of the charges without these costs and you can see no reason why a third party needs to be involved as these costs were clearly determined by the Solicitor's office in order to generate the fee invoice in the first place.

use Registered Post and keep copies of everything, before you do that check to see if the client ever signed a Section 68 letters, people do strange things!!

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 05:06PM

Stanford,how come you know all this? I have written authority ( which Solicitor holds) to correspond about my friends' case. I have copies of all letters between Solicitor and my friends and can't see any S68 corresponding. Will double check then ask Solicitor. If one has been signed then it'll be on file - simples!

Stanford · 09-08-2018 05:15PM

lakeslady wrote: »

Stanford,how come you know all this? I have written authority ( which Solicitor holds) to correspond about my friends' case. I have copies of all letters between Solicitor and my friends and can't see any S68 corresponding. Will double check then ask Solicitor. If one has been signed then it'll be on file - simples!

I am not a Solicitor but I brought a case against a Solicitor acting for me to the Law Society (and won) on the basis that he was basing his defence on a Section 68 letter which was never issued so I am not stating that my advice is professional counsel.

On your last point box clever, if you do not find a S.68 on file do not ask your solicitor for one, ask him/her for a copy of the original one issued, it is was either issued or not.

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 05:18PM

Ah,that explains a lot. And thanks again for the advice. Forewarned is forearmed.

Stanford · 09-08-2018 05:19PM

Indeed it is, best of luck

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 05:54PM

Thanks Stanford. Unfortunately the damned Solicitor is on 2 weeks leave,not back till 20th,so yet further delays. We've had to threaten a LS complaint to force them to put answers to certain questions in writing ( this is why I smell a rat and feel my friends have been dealt with shoddily. To give you an example of the Senior Partner,during a recent Telecon with him he said to me "Are you thick?; Are you stupid?" and then simply put the phone down on me.) But I think we'll have to get a written response to certain questions, obviously the S68 one if nothing else, before any complaint is made. They want us to have a meeting but I prefer stuff written down ( I'm a retired UK Tax Inspector and the devil is always in the detail): verbals can be denied,writing can't.

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 06:19PM

Sorry Stanford, forgot to ask. Will the signed S68 letter also contain the info outlined in your post No 16 or do I need to ask for that as well?

Stanford · 09-08-2018 08:49PM

The S38 is effectively a Form of Engagement and confirms that you have retained the Solicitor to act on your behalf, it will outline the various rates for Partner, Associate, Junior etc. as well as advising you that you be be liable for VAT and outlay and other technicalities. It will not explain the €5000 invoice as, to be fair, the S 68 is issued at the beginning of engagement and the Solicitor cannot judge precisely what the eventual time comittment will be especially if litigation is expected.

Hence you will need to ask for a full breakdown of the €5000 invoice separately to which you are fully entitled at no cost to you. If you eventually make a complaint to the LS they will require the S38 and also proof that you have tried to resolve the issue directly with the Solicitor in the first case, clearly you cannot do that as you do not have a breakdown of professional fees and other direct outlay. By withholding this it could be argued that the Solicitor is effectively frustrating any complaint you may make to the LS Society.

I would write under Registered Post asking for a copy of the S68 letter and a full itemised breakdown of the €5000 invoice to which you understand you are entitled to gratis, I would argue that there is no point in having a meeting unless and until you receive this information in writing within 10 days, ignore the Solicitor's leave, that is not your problem, get the clock ticking asap. Do not agree to any meeting without these documents.

lakeslady · 09-08-2018 10:20PM

Thank you once again Stanford,you have been exceptionally helpful and I do appreciate it. Will do as you suggest. Watch this space!

Mr. Incognito · 10-08-2018 09:03AM

It looks like a personal injury case

In that case I suspect it was no foal no fee.

The solicitor appears to have gotten a settlement and raised an invoice and the person who, I presume has paid nothing at all along the way allowing the solicitor to carry the risk is now looking for an itemised break down.

They are entitled to be told in advance what the fees charged are. This is, as pointed out already, a Section 68 letter.

They are entitled to a breakdown of the fees.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who have paid nothing for a case and get a good result then go to war for an award that they have relied entirely on their solicitor to negotiate for them. They trust him to get the maximum for them and then try and bite the hand that literally fed them.

Best of luck with the dispute but I think its safe to say you will not have a professional relationship with that solicitor again.

I also dont understand why you have all the documentation between your "friend" and their solicitor.

beauf · 10-08-2018 09:24AM

Why is asking for a breakdown of costs, going to "war" ?

Not supplying a breakdown of a bill by default is not for me a good sign of a business.

Rows Grower · 10-08-2018 09:34AM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

It looks like a personal injury case

In that case I suspect it was no foal no fee.

The solicitor appears to have gotten a settlement and raised an invoice and the person who, I presume has paid nothing at all along the way allowing the solicitor to carry the risk is now looking for an itemised break down.

They are entitled to be told in advance what the fees charged are. This is, as pointed out already, a Section 68 letter.

They are entitled to a breakdown of the fees.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who have paid nothing for a case and get a good result then go to war for an award that they have relied entirely on their solicitor to negotiate for them. They trust him to get the maximum for them and then try and bite the hand that literally fed them.

Best of luck with the dispute but I think its safe to say you will not have a professional relationship with that solicitor again.

I also dont understand why you have all the documentation between your "friend" and their solicitor.

This was a very interesting thread until you jumped in with your assumptions and criticism's.

You say that people who have paid nothing for a case then bite the hand that feeds.

You seem to be forgetting (and this is only going by your assumption that it is a personal injury case) that the award is to compensate for personal injury suffered by the client.

Yes they trust the solicitor to get them the maximum payment, don't forget that is the solicitor's job. A job that they are very well paid for.

If someone is not happy with a bill presented by a solicitor they are entitled to have the bill explained before paying, in the same way if you are not happy with a bill from a plumber or carpenter they too must explain the costs.

You seem to think solicitor's should be above reproach or are a profession that are not to be questioned.

There is plenty of evidence of solicitors being found guilty before the courts of ripping off clients.

I would treat a solicitor in the same way as any other professional I employ, eg. you are being paid good money to do a good job and if you can't do that I'm sure there are plenty others who would appreciate the work.

Mr. Incognito · 10-08-2018 09:44AM

Rows Grower wrote: »

This was a very interesting thread until you jumped in with your assumptions and criticism's.

You say that people who have paid nothing for a case then bite the hand that feeds.

You seem to be forgetting (and this is only going by your assumption that it is a personal injury case) that the award is to compensate for personal injury suffered by the client.

Yes they trust the solicitor to get them the maximum payment, don't forget that is the solicitor's job. A job that they are very well paid for.

If someone is not happy with a bill presented by a solicitor they are entitled to have the bill explained before paying, in the same way if you are not happy with a bill from a plumber or carpenter they too must explain the costs.

You seem to think solicitor's should be above reproach or are a profession that are not to be questioned.

There is plenty of evidence of solicitors being found guilty before the courts of ripping off clients.

I would treat a solicitor in the same way as any other professional I employ, eg. you are being paid good money to do a good job and if you can't do that I'm sure there are plenty others who would appreciate the work.

I have no difficulty with anyone getting a break down of fees. They are absolutely entitled to that, but they are threatening reporting to the Law Society without even getting feedback

That is inappropriate. They dont even know if the charges are appropriate yet.

Like all professions there are good solicitors and bad solicitors.

The PI was on the basis of saying they had a good case and expected fees to be paid from the other side. Its very unlikely to be any other kind of litigation if they were confident enough to say that.

You seem to think solicitor's should be above reproach or are a profession that are not to be questioned.

I have not said that. That is your own bias and interpretation. Accordingly there is no need to engage with this fallacy. I have wished them well with their dispute as it now is with their solicitor.

beauf · 10-08-2018 11:12AM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

...but they are threatening reporting to the Law Society without even getting feedback ...

They initially contacted the Law Society and Solicitor to get help and information and met delay and no assistance. I think if you look for the courtesy of professional dialogue and receive none, you have to look at your options, and one of those was seeking advice here.

I think its bit early to be painting everyone as villains.

Rows Grower · 10-08-2018 11:19AM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I have no difficulty with anyone getting a break down of fees. They are absolutely entitled to that, but they are threatening reporting to the Law Society without even getting feedback

That is inappropriate. They dont even know if the charges are appropriate yet.

Like all professions there are good solicitors and bad solicitors.

The PI was on the basis of saying they had a good case and expected fees to be paid from the other side. Its very unlikely to be any other kind of litigation if they were confident enough to say that.

I have not said that. That is your own bias and interpretation. Accordingly there is no need to engage with this fallacy. I have wished them well with their dispute as it now is with their solicitor.

Without getting feedback? Have you even read the thread?

How about stating that a breakdown of the bill presented will cost another 600 euro plus vat?

Now that is what you call inappropriate!

How about the senior partner asking "Are you stupid? Are you thick?" ?

As for you stating that it is very unlikely to be any other case than a claim for personal injuries because they had a good chance of winning expenses, this just proves your very limited knowledge of the law.

beauf · 10-08-2018 12:01PM

I think dissecting the saga isn't that helpful. Stick what next, and keep it concise.

Solicitor Fees

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