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Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

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    #9422
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,935 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    lurker2000 wrote: »
    Trumpty Dumpty sat on the wall. Trumpty Dumpty had a great fall. All his supporters and all his 'yes' men, couldn't rehabilitate his reputation again.

    This is a forum for serious discussion. Please read the charter before posting again.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #9423
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,935 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    everlast75 wrote: »
    Its gotten to that stage in american politics that some are so blinded by their hatred of the other party, they will reconcile in their own heads cheating, so long as it helps their guy. They might say that Putin is not that bad, or at least we are not going to war, or some other argument so they can basically say its the lesser of the two evils.

    Gerrymandering and voter suppression has always been a fair charge against the Republican party. It's just a next stage.
    everlast75 wrote: »
    Its gotten to that stage in american politics that some are so blinded by their hatred of the other party, they will reconcile in their own heads cheating, so long as it helps their guy. They might say that Putin is not that bad, or at least we are not going to war, or some other argument so they can basically say its the lesser of the two evils.

    Gerrymandering and voter suppression has always been a fair charge against the Republican party. It's just a next stage.

    I followed his Facebook page for a while. I think he came to prominence after his filibuster but once Trump took office, he seems to have abandoned his principles.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #9424
    badtoro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 482 ✭✭badtoro


    jooksavage wrote: »
    Surprise surprise it looks Dan Coats interview on MSNBC and his reaction to Trumps announcement of another meeting with Putin has landed him in it. Washington Post reporting that the administrstion is furious with Coats, who appears to be laughing at the president during the interview. Sounds like his days are numbered. Pity he didnt resign by himself when his word was being compared to Putins on Monday - that would have caused a real problem for Trump.

    I didn't get the feeling from the video, as some said, that Coates was surprised about the Putin visit news. He may have said he was at some other point, I only watched a clip. Most certainly did get the impression that he was laughing at Trump. If only more figures in authority in that country would demonstrate the same courage, its both refreshing and reassuring to see.


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    #9425
    jooksavage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭jooksavage


    Former prosecutor Glenn Kirschner has a theory as to why Trump still hasn't yet been subpoenaed to be questioned by Muellers team. He believes Trump may have now become a target of the investigstion. Its dept policy not to subpoena targets, and he notes that the indicted Manfort and Gates and the convicted Van Der Zwaan were not subpoenaed.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/why-hasn-t-robert-mueller-subpoenaed-trump-three-theories-about-ncna892591


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    #9426
    bobbyss
    Registered Users Posts: 5,202 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    We hear so much of Russian interference in American politics and Trump denial or agreement, I don't really know.
    Does anyone know specifically what is meant by hacking emails? Whose emails were hacked? Why? What gain was to be gotten and how do they interfere with the election and so on?


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    #9427
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    bobbyss wrote: »
    We hear so much of Russian interference in American politics and Trump denial or agreement, I don't really know.
    Does anyone know specifically what is meant by hacking emails? Whose emails were hacked? Why? What gain was to be gotten and how do they interfere with the election and so on?
    Hacking emails is a fishing exercise. You're always likely to find something that someone said in an unguarded moment or in jest that can be made to look as if it's serious. And that's at the bottom end. There's also the possibility of finding some sort of 'smoking gun' that can be used to discredit the target(s). Even discussion of various options to a particular problem could have some off the wall propositions that wouldn't be taken seriously by the participants in the discussion, but would look bad in public. And that's the next step. Hand them to WikiLeaks for plausible deniability (for the real source) and sit back and let the damage build.


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    #9428
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    I've listened to a few debates now.

    The narrative is the same as it is here: Deep State/Intelligence agencies are corrupt/biased.

    The reason why that is nonsense is because they were perfectly happy with Comey when he nailed Clinton with that bombshell. Its the same as one of Manafort's judges - when they back up Trump they are great people. When they are critical, supporters scream "biased!!"

    Can you imagine the absolute sh1tstorm if Obama or any Dem president was so obsequious to Putin. Hell, they lambasted Obama for bowing to a Qatari* leader, nevermind contradicting his own intelligence community

    *I think

    And one last thing. If Coates or others are untrustworthy, why not fire him? Why not bring in "some of the best people" that we heard so much about?


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    #9429
    jooksavage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭jooksavage


    everlast75 wrote: »
    Can you imagine the absolute sh1tstorm if Obama or any Dem president was so obsequious to Putin. Hell, they lambasted Obama for bowing to a Qatari* leader, nevermind contradicting his own intelligence community


    The brass neck on the likes of Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity who went on about Obama's "apology tour" but saw absolutely nothing wrong with Trump's grovelling in front of Putin.


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    #9430
    bobbyss
    Registered Users Posts: 5,202 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    prawnsambo wrote:
    Hacking emails is a fishing exercise. You're always likely to find something that someone said in an unguarded moment or in jest that can be made to look as if it's serious. And that's at the bottom end. There's also the possibility of finding some sort of 'smoking gun' that can be used to discredit the target(s). Even discussion of various options to a particular problem could have some off the wall propositions that wouldn't be taken seriously by the participants in the discussion, but would look bad in public. And that's the next step. Hand them to WikiLeaks for plausible deniability (for the real source) and sit back and let the damage build.


    I see thanks.
    Does anyone know how many emails have been hacked and more importantly what HAS been discovered in an unguarded moment or something said in jest? Has any email been hacked which WAS damaging or influenced any election. Does anyone know?


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    #9431
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    bobbyss wrote: »
    I see thanks.
    Does anyone know how many emails have been hacked and more importantly what HAS been discovered in an unguarded moment or something said in jest? Has any email been hacked which WAS damaging or influenced any election. Does anyone know?
    I'm not sure where it came from*, but there was some record of a discussion involving HC and her staff about WikiLeaks and HC asked jokingly, could they not just send a drone in and get rid of Assange that way.

    So that was obviously conflated to mean that HC wanted to order a drone strike on London. :rolleyes:

    *I can't remember if this was a true 'leak' or something made up or exaggerated. It may even have come from the hacks of John Podesta's gmail account. It's a long time ago and I'm hazy on the details.


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    #9432
    jooksavage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭jooksavage


    bobbyss wrote: »
    I see thanks.
    Does anyone know how many emails have been hacked and more importantly what HAS been discovered in an unguarded moment or something said in jest? Has any email been hacked which WAS damaging or influenced any election. Does anyone know?

    To bring you up to speed:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/26/us/2016-presidential-campaign-hacking-fast-facts/index.html

    It's impossible to know to what degree the hack affected the election outcome. Trump and his defenders will argue it had no effect. That argument is dishonest insofar as they'd be arguing the opposite if the shoe was on the the other foot it's completely besides the point anyway. The intent of the attack was to damage the Dems and help Trump. Within an hour of the Access Hollywood tape being reported, hacked emails were released to divert attention away from DJT and his busy hands. A crime was committed. The effectiveness or otherwise isn't the issue here - attempted murder isn't thrown out of court because the defense argues "all's well that ends well".


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    #9433
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,172 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    jooksavage wrote: »
    Surprise surprise it looks Dan Coats interview on MSNBC and his reaction to Trumps announcement of another meeting with Putin has landed him in it. Washington Post reporting that the administrstion is furious with Coats, who appears to be laughing at the president during the interview. Sounds like his days are numbered. Pity he didnt resign by himself when his word was being compared to Putins on Monday - that would have caused a real problem for Trump.

    The White House may be just looking for an excuse, Trump apparently wasn't a fan of him anyway.


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    #9434
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    jooksavage wrote: »
    To bring you up to speed:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/26/us/2016-presidential-campaign-hacking-fast-facts/index.html

    It's impossible to know to what degree the hack affected the election outcome. Trump and his defenders will argue it had no effect. That argument is dishonest insofar as they'd be arguing the opposite if the shoe was on the the other foot it's completely besides the point anyway. The intent of the attack was to damage the Dems and help Trump. Within an hour of the Access Hollywood tape being reported, hacked emails were released to divert attention away from DJT and his busy hands. A crime was committed. The effectiveness or otherwise isn't the issue here - attempted murder isn't thrown out of court because the defense argues "all's well that ends well".

    Agreed.

    And it is also dishonest in that, if the "meddling" was inconsequential, then why refuse to take steps to stop it happening again.
    I mean, it shouldn't matter either way, right?
    So why not do something bi-partisan and shut those noisy Dems up... unless of course you're either that belligerent, or you think it did help and you want more of it?


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    #9435
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,821 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    ELM327 wrote: »
    After this post


    I posted this.
    I should note I have received no PM, and would now like you to either pm the CMod Unkel, pm me to name the other motors regulars who have been to my house and in at least one or two of my american vehicles... or if not, retract your damn false and frankly libellous statement.

    I don't take kindly to being accused of being a spoofer when I'm damn well not.

    I dont engage in nonsense.

    And if you think what i wrote can be construed as libellous i would suggest studying the law.

    It takes all sorts though, I like your Threatening behaviour though it smacks of a certain blonde haired fat american presidents actions to get his way.


    Good Luck, And come back to reality sometime cheers!


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    #9436
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    listermint wrote: »
    I dont engage in nonsense.

    And if you think what i wrote can be construed as libellous i would suggest studying the law.

    It takes all sorts though, I like your Threatening behaviour though it smacks of a certain blonde haired fat american presidents actions to get his way.


    Good Luck, And come back to reality sometime cheers!
    Interesting climb down there. Combined with irrational unfounded allegations of "threatening behaviour".
    Hang on, maybe you misspoke. Did you mean to say I wouldn't be a spoofer?
    Who told you to change your mind?

    Actually hang on lets go further.

    If you contact the Cmod I referenced or any of the posters that I know from the motors forum in reality (which I can give a list of by PM)that have seen my vehicles that you state I did not own, and they do not corroborate my explained list of previous and current vehicles then I shall make a charitable donation to a charity of your choosing (including charities set up specifically against Trump).

    For clarity, here are just some of the myriad of posts from me in the motors forum regarding my previous cars:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107500087&postcount=37
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106885545&postcount=4883
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106221264&postcount=9284


  • Options
    #9437
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,821 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Interesting climb down there. Combined with irrational unfounded allegations of "threatening behaviour".

    Hang on, maybe you misspoke. Did you mean to say I wouldn't be a spoofer?
    Who told you to change your mind?




    Actually hang on lets go further.

    If you contact the Cmod I referenced or any of the posters that I know from the motors forum in reality (which I can give a list of by PM)that have seen my vehicles that you state I did not own, and they do not corroborate my explained list of previous and current vehicles then I shall make a charitable donation to a charity of your choosing (including charities set up specifically against Trump).

    Climb down ?

    No I don't respond to threats and I won't be PMing you for anything.

    I've no intentions of PMing any mods. You haven't mentioned your pickups before , if someone has seen them in person good on you.

    If you want to continue threatening me then I suggest knocking on my front door.


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    #9438
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    @ELM327 & Listermint

    Knock it off. Any more bickering and there'll be sanctions. Back on topic please.


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    #9439
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    Is America geniunely damaged beyond repair in that could we see in as early as the next 20 years states like California going it alone, especially if things like Rowe vs Wade are reversed etc

    I think it is a realistic possibility as if California left the Union it would need the backing of 38 other states.  The Republicans would be very much in favour of this as the Democrats would lose 55 electoral college seats plus 2 senators, giving even more control to the Republicans


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    #9440
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,935 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I think that the USA has become a failed experiment. For a long time, its problems were masked by its economic success and prosperity. However, the tide of anti-intellectualism, doublethink and raw hatred that Donald Trump is currently riding can only lead to somewhere terrible. The alt-right has currently become the mainstream while moderate Republicans like Jeff Flake of Arizona are very much sidelined. Meanwhile, the left continues to appeal to individual minority groups and lacks any sort of galvanising narrative which they need if they're ever going to have a broad appeal.

    The USA, like the two political parties that have governed it is simply too grand a coalition to survive in its current form. I don't know what the next shock is going to be but I think it needs to either split up entirely or cede much more decision-making power to individual states while reforming its political system. Given the lack of interest in the latter, I think the former is more likely to happen.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #9441
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,002 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Isn't that all a little apocalyptic though? I agree that by and large the 'experiment' is showing signs of failure, but seems like the USA has greater bureaucratic, intellectual and logistical structures that'd act as a bulwark against utter collapse, compared with other large state that failed such as the USSR.

    Mind you, while I find the notion of it splitting up a bit of a stretch, I see a more likely path of the USA slipping into a full blown autocracy; the narrative of Trump and his most vocal supporters essentially boils down to "Wouldn't you rather have an honest, god-fearing king?" and it's disquieting how enticing it has seemed to others. All it would take would be some 'emergency legislation' here and there to neuter both Houses and bring authoritarianism to the streets.


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    #9442
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,545 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Both houses have essentially been neutered already. And SCOTUS is well under way along with a massive stacking of courts across the country and across the levels


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    #9443
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    It appears that the role of president was ripe for corrupting.

    I'm just thankful that Trump et al are so grossly incompetent in whatever they do, that they will be caught.

    Can you imagine if someone of average or above intellect was there instead?


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    #9444
    spacecoyote
    Registered Users Posts: 8,487 ✭✭✭spacecoyote


    More talk from Trump about going all in on the China Trade War:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/jul/20/trump-fed-criticism-currency-war-fears-yuan-uk-public-finances-business-live

    One wonders, does he see this as a way to distract from the Russian stuff over the last few days? If so, its very worrying. Could he trigger a massive wholesale trade war just to shift the media focus? I think he's stubborn enough to do so


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    #9445
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,093 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    WH nomination to the 9th circuit Court of appeals got rebuffed, not by dems. Republicans sunk him over his "racially insensitive" past writings.

    Tim Scott an African American Republican senator came out and said he would not back him due to the above, more Republicans followed suit and he was withdrawn before a final confirmation vote. A blow to the president for sure but some insight into the Republicans too!

    Funny how they have an issue with his college writings (rightly) but don't seem to have any issue with kavanaughs writings from when he worked under Ken Starr.

    Also came out from Adam Schiff that the Democrats wanted to question mariia butina earlier this year and were shut down by the GOP as they did not want to tarnish the NRA or President Trump. More to come there for sure

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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    #9446
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,093 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    everlast75 wrote: »
    It appears that the role of president was ripe for corrupting.

    I'm just thankful that Trump et al are so grossly incompetent in whatever they do, that they will be caught.

    Can you imagine if someone of average or above intellect was there instead?

    This will happen, the blueprint has now been laid out for the future. A more effective "Trump" will come along you can be sure.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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    #9447
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,935 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Isn't that all a little apocalyptic though? I agree that by and large the 'experiment' is showing signs of failure, but seems like the USA has greater bureaucratic, intellectual and logistical structures that'd act as a bulwark against utter collapse, compared with other large state that failed such as the USSR.

    Mind you, while I find the notion of it splitting up a bit of a stretch, I see a more likely path of the USA slipping into a full blown autocracy; the narrative of Trump and his most vocal supporters essentially boils down to "Wouldn't you rather have an honest, god-fearing king?" and it's disquieting how enticing it has seemed to others. All it would take would be some 'emergency legislation' here and there to neuter both Houses and bring authoritarianism to the streets.

    Perhaps. I certainly don't know what's going to happen. Trump and the Russians are completely unprecedented. The idea of a president of the USA of all places siding with a hostile foreign power over his own government is utterly insane.

    It probably won't split up but it stopped being a democracy some time ago in my opinion. If Clinton won in 2016, 4 of the last 5 presidents in the most diverse nation on earth would have been from two families. Then there's the lunacy that is the electoral college where the votes there have a tendency to all go to the winner of the state whether they got 100% of the vote or 51%, not to mention individual voters in California having less importance that their equivalents in about 20 other states.

    People talk about checks and balances but it seems to me that the SCOTUS has become just another political tool. I'm sure it does act as a check but that the president can appoint judges based on his/her own personal preference undermines its credentials as such.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #9448
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,002 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    everlast75 wrote: »
    It appears that the role of president was ripe for corrupting.

    I'm just thankful that Trump et al are so grossly incompetent in whatever they do, that they will be caught.

    Can you imagine if someone of average or above intellect was there instead?

    I said it pages & pages back, but my main fear about Trump is the precedent he's setting, and the guy who comes after is the person to worry about.

    As you say he's incompetent and a walking example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect for sure, but he has emboldened and normalised the right-wing, Christian extremists in America like never before. I'm willing to put money on a Presidential candidate appearing in my lifetime who, rather than being an opportunistic blowhard like Trump, will be a True Believer, and have the political clout to pull it off.

    You could make a case that we're already seeing it it with Ted Cruz, even Mike Pence, but neither have the kind of dangerous magnetism that I'm thinking of (and in the case of Cruz has the reverse problem in that even his own party seem to despise him)


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    #9449
    amandstu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,448 ✭✭✭amandstu


    spacecoyote wrote: »
    More talk from Trump about going all in on the China Trade War:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/jul/20/trump-fed-criticism-currency-war-fears-yuan-uk-public-finances-business-live

    One wonders, does he see this as a way to distract from the Russian stuff over the last few days? If so, its very worrying. Could he trigger a massive wholesale trade war just to shift the media focus? I think he's stubborn enough to do so

    They were saying on the Andrew oNeil prog last like that America is making its pivot to the East. They are doing a geopolitical carve up with Russia.

    Syria has been apportioned to Russia and Nato doesn't look like it will be accepted by this administration (unwilling to defend individual countries like Montenegro)


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    #9450
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    pixelburp wrote: »
    I said it pages & pages back, but my main fear about Trump is the precedent he's setting, and the guy who comes after is the person to worry about.

    As you say he's incompetent and a walking example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect for sure, but he has emboldened and normalised the right-wing, Christian extremists in America like never before. I'm willing to put money on a Presidential candidate appearing in my lifetime who, rather than being an opportunistic blowhard like Trump, will be a True Believer, and have the political clout to pull it off.

    You could make a case that we're already seeing it it with Ted Cruz, even Mike Pence, but neither have the kind of dangerous magnetism that I'm thinking of (and in the case of Cruz has the reverse problem in that even his own party seem to despise him)

    2 things.

    1st off, there is an opportunity to put safe guards in place after he goes, if there is a willingness to do it of course.

    Secondly, Pence or Cruz, while wholly awful people, don't have the Trump factor.. the brazen bluster that works on a certain portion of people.
    Pence couldn't wow a crowd - no chance


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    #9451
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,002 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    everlast75 wrote: »
    2 things.

    1st off, there is an opportunity to put safe guards in place after he goes, if there is a willingness to do it of course.

    Secondly, Pence or Cruz, while wholly awful people, don't have the Trump factor.. the brazen bluster that works on a certain portion of people.
    Pence couldn't wow a crowd - no chance

    Precisely: but unless those safeguards appear, or there's a national bout of real, quantifiable self-reflection, the Pence-Trump hybrid will appear. Heck, to look at the likes of Richard Spencer, you see real attempts to wrap Nazism up in a veneer of respectability, to the point where he was courted by mainstream US press. His seemed like a deliberate attempt to steer the image of Neo Nazis away from the 'redneck' image - the Charlottesville protests showing another side of this rebranding with the decision of its members to sport polo-shirts & khakis. To me this is all part of the same slippery slope, the search for that sweet spot that'll turn the public towards _some_ brand of extremism.


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