Peak Trans

_Kaiser_ · 19-07-2018 08:08PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Blocking puberty is reversible so yes I am perfectly fine with it. It gives the person a chance to explore their own identity. If they decide at a later stage they are not trans then fair enough. They can just go through dlightly delayed puberty.

I know it's a few pages back (and Wibbs and others have already responded in greater detail), but I've been catching up on this thread this evening and couldn't let this one pass.

This has to be the most simultaneously arrogant, dangerous and outright idiotic post I've read in this entire thread and indeed Boards.ie as a whole in a long time.

The idea that you can just put puberty on "hold" with no ill-effects (short or long term) is the most bizarre thing I've read in this thread yet, and is a perfect example of the dangers of allowing ideology, virtue-signalling and idealism to trump science and biological and medical facts.

This post right here is the best argument against the whole idea that started this thread that anyone could have made.

Yer Da sells Avon · 19-07-2018 08:09PM

The knee-jerk responses really are coming in thick and fast tonight, so excuse me if I miss any of the ones that were... um... too... fast.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Would you allow your child to starve to death and not get them medical attention if they had severe anorexia?

I would absolutely want them to be force-fed by whatever means possible. And perhaps, if it came down to it, I would also force my hypothetical child to go through what they insisted was the wrong puberty. Perhaps my decision would ultimately turn out to be 100% correct. Perhaps it would result in them becoming severely depressed and attempting suicide. The point I'm trying (and, it seems, failing hugely, for whatever reason...) to make is that it is not the black & white issue that some here seem to feel it is.

Malayalam · 19-07-2018 08:12PM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Am I an anti-natalist 'too'? In addition to what? Not being 100% sure whether it's absolutely ethical to force a child to go through puberty against their will? You seem to be arguing against a view that I haven't expressed.

I was trying to pose a parallel and arguably related dilemma, for illustration purposes.

Your argument has some hint of merit in it, I find - in the sense that to dismiss it out of hand is not entirely simple. Nonetheless I feel there is some inherent flaw or flaws in your argument, and I cannot figure out - or rather express - exactly what they are right now, so I will have to think about it further.
I think, since you seek to found your argument in ethics, it is something to do with the balance of harm. I will try and get back to you when I am not tired.

BattleCorp · 19-07-2018 08:18PM

While this isn't exactly a peer review journal extract, it does appear that the drug used to block puberty can have dangerous side effects.

https://www.refinery29.com/2017/03/143124/lupron-delay-puberty-drug-health-risks

BattleCorp · 19-07-2018 08:21PM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

And perhaps, if it came down to it, I would also force my hypothetical child to go through what they insisted was the wrong puberty.

But here's the thing. You wouldn't be forcing them from going through what they thought was the wrong puberty. You would be 'not stopping' them from going through puberty. There's a big difference.

JRant · 19-07-2018 08:26PM

P_1 wrote: »

Eh are we forgetting that the GRA amendment is referring to 16 year olds and not 12 year olds or has that little fact been drowned out among the sounds of pitchforks being raised?

Ultimately the decision is and bloody well should be down to the individual

Well you better take that up with TENI. They are the ones leading the campaign to have that limit removed. Their spokesperson said the 16 year old limit has no precedence in law and should have no age limit on it.

Yer Da sells Avon · 19-07-2018 08:28PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

But here's the thing. You wouldn't be forcing them from going through what they thought was the wrong puberty. You would be 'not stopping' them from going through puberty. There's a big difference.

I'd be enforcing my own view upon them - albeit in the hope that my decision would turn out to be the right one and wouldn't result in their suicide.

BattleCorp · 19-07-2018 08:34PM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

I'd be enforcing my own view upon them - albeit in the hope that my decision would turn out to be the right one and wouldn't result in their suicide.

But that's what parents do all the time with their kids. "Hey, time for bed". "Hey, go to school." "No, you can't get a 666 tattoo on your face".

I've seen kids threaten suicide because their playstation was taken away as punishment. You can't let kids blackmail you with suicide.

And yes, I do acknowledge that some kids do commit suicide and I'm trying not to come across as uncaring but that doesn't mean that I would bow to their every demand. Especially a demand that might turn out to be harmful in the long run.

If an adult wants to transition, by all means go for it. I'm cool with that. But I wouldn't be going tinkering with the biology with someone who is legally a child until their 18th birthday.

Calhoun · 19-07-2018 08:40PM

P_1 wrote: »

Think about the logical fallacy of your argument for a second.

Are all feminists SWERFs and TERFs?
Are all men rapists?
Did the sky fall in when we had equal marriage or repealed the 8th?

Every movement has its more extreme elements and often they are the loudest.

Had to look up Swerf and Terf (I don't know), are all men rapists? depends on where you go in society today but probably a good chance that parts of our society think like this, same side as the folks who want young children to be able to decide on medical treatsment's.

Did the sky fall in with marriage equality or the 8th? no it didnt but the difference was both of these issues were to do with issues around adults. Why so many people are vocal on this on is because it has a link to children.

Every movement does have its extremist sure but right now for such an apparent small minority the LGBT group has a fairly powerful voice, and as seen in other jurisdictions has enacted laws that could see children removed from parents.

Tin Foil Hat · 19-07-2018 09:55PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

except being trans is NOT a mental illness.

How can it not be? How can thinking you are something you are not, not be an illness or a disorder?

SEPT 23 1989 · 19-07-2018 10:10PM

Maybe I'm a dinosaur but what sort of parents takes any of the bull**** notions of a 16 year old seriously?

_Dara_ · 19-07-2018 10:20PM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

The knee-jerk responses really are coming in thick and fast tonight, so excuse me if I miss any of the ones that were... um... too... fast.

I would absolutely want them to be force-fed by whatever means possible. And perhaps, if it came down to it, I would also force my hypothetical child to go through what they insisted was the wrong puberty. Perhaps my decision would ultimately turn out to be 100% correct. Perhaps it would result in them becoming severely depressed and attempting suicide. The point I'm trying (and, it seems, failing hugely, for whatever reason...) to make is that it is not the black & white issue that some here seem to feel it is.

You are being very presumptuous here. My own concerns come from having some knowledge of drug-testing. There is no ethical way to run a trial to test the effects of blocking puberty using medication. Therefore giving these drugs to nascent adolescents is feeling in the dark and hoping things work out okay. There could be lasting damage done and a quick peruse shows that some now adults have experienced significant problems by having their puberty stopped. The minors being medicated like this are being treated like guinea pigs. In the past, that was unfortunately how many drugs were tested but I thought we had made ethical strides in this area.

Wibbs · 19-07-2018 10:26PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

It's a dose of ignorance and fear.

Yet you would no doubt agree with others when they say stuff like this?

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not an irreversible decision.

A staggeringly unscientific statement, that for some unknown bloody reason an otherwise head well screwed on chap like Joey keeps repeating. And medically daft with it. And any doctor who would claim the same is a mountebank of the first order.

BattleCorp wrote: »

While this isn't exactly a peer review journal extract, it does appear that the drug used to block puberty can have dangerous side effects.

Well colour me gobsmacked indeed BC. In other news: Water is wet. Given kids who have underlying conditions that delay or stop puberty happening in the normal course of things have medical issues. Delayed puberty itself is considered a medical condition in need of treatment.

WinnyThePoo · 19-07-2018 10:38PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet you would no doubt agree with others when they say stuff like this?

Yes Wibbs, of course, whatever you say.

Annasopra · 19-07-2018 11:10PM

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

How can it not be? How can thinking you are something you are not, not be an illness or a disorder?

Its not though. No matter what you think or say its not. We have completely moved away from seeing trans people as mentally ill like we once saw gay people as mentally ill.

The UN, The World Health Organisation, Many many medical practitioners and professional groups now recognise that being transgender is not a mental illness.

Wibbs · 19-07-2018 11:12PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Yes Wibbs, of course, whatever you say.

Well clearly. But that aside, am I wrong in my supposition? You didn't answer that.

WinnyThePoo · 19-07-2018 11:38PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well clearly. But that aside, am I wrong in my supposition? You didn't answer that.

Well you seem to have it all figured it out
Yet you would no doubt agree with others when they say stuff like this?

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Caitlyn is stunning and brave.

Any who disagree are bigots

Buckle up buckaroos!

Mod-banned and disgusting picture redacted.

Bambi wrote: »

Are you sure she's not suicidal as a result of being mental?

Mod: Banned

Seriously, usually your a much better poster.

Wibbs · 19-07-2018 11:45PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Well you seem to have it all figured it out
Yet you would no doubt agree with others when they say stuff like this?

Nice deflection Winny, with a side order of unfounded accusations and implied affiliations that don't exist. The "Seriously, usually your[sic] a much better poster" a nice touch and appeal to ego, but none of the above have I said or even intimated. Nor by the by would I agree with it. So as they say in the Eurovision; nil pointe.

Maybe try responding to the question I actually asked: Would you agree with the premise that hormone blockers pre or during puberty are a reversible decision?

sabat · 19-07-2018 11:48PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not though. No matter what you think or say its not. We have completely moved away from seeing trans people as mentally ill like we once saw gay people as mentally ill.

The UN, The World Health Organisation, Many many medical practitioners and professional groups now recognise that being transgender is not a mental illness.

Let's take the case of the Wachowskis for example. Given that transsexualism is such a rare condition, what are the odds that two non-twin brothers would both have been born with it? Billions to one probably. What are the odds that it was in actuality a mental disorder that was brought on by familial or social factors? Overwhelmingly likely to be the truth. A quick glance at their wiki page reveals a clue:

"Raised by a "hardcore atheist" father and an "ex-Catholic turned Shamanist" mother."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wachowskis

Yer Da sells Avon · 19-07-2018 11:55PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

You are being very presumptuous here.

Not really. I share your concerns, but I was responding to posters (one two of whom have since been banned for posting transphobic crap) who didn't bother their holes to read my post and assumed that I was totally cool with the idea of stopping puberty. I'm not ok with it (because, as you say, they're guinea pigs), but given the statistics surrounding self harm and suicide attempts among trans teens, I'm not overly comfortable with the alternative either.

JRant · 19-07-2018 11:56PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet you would no doubt agree with others when they say stuff like this?

A staggeringly unscientific statement, that for some unknown bloody reason an otherwise head well screwed on chap like Joey keeps repeating. And medically daft with it. And any doctor who would claim the same is a mountebank of the first order.

Well colour me gobsmacked indeed BC. In other news: Water is wet. Given kids who have underlying conditions that delay or stop puberty happening in the normal course of things have medical issues. Delayed puberty itself is considered a medical condition in need of treatment.

Not only is it unscientific but it flies in the face of what we witnessed in the 70/80's with the East German athletes. Look at the long term effects of giving testosterone to young girls had. It's not pretty and bloody well shouldn't be allowed happen again.

WinnyThePoo · 20-07-2018 12:00AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Nice deflection Winny, with a side order of unfounded accusations and implied affiliations that don't exist. The "Seriously, usually your[sic] a much better poster" a nice touch and appeal to ego, but none of the above have I said or even intimated. Nor by the by would I agree with it. So as they say in the Eurovision; nil pointe.

Maybe try responding to the question I actually asked: Would you agree with the premise that hormone blockers pre or during puberty are a reversible decision?

You have attributed my post to three random posts..

'with a side order of unfounded accusations and implied affiliations '

Are you actually reading what your writing?. I have no interest in talking to you after your first post.

Wibbs · 20-07-2018 12:24AM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

You have attributed my post to three random posts..

'with a side order of unfounded accusations and implied affiliations '

Are you actually reading what your writing?.

Why yes I am, and anyone else reading the thread will read it too. Those "random posts?"

You. Previously. wrote:

Yet you would no doubt agree with others when they say stuff like this?

(followed by the worst picture you think you could paint of me and my argument). You posted those "random posts" in an effort to conflate my position with theirs, so you're acting quite deliberately dishonestly with it.

I have no interest in talking to you after your first post.

And yet you did. The "I'm out!" is the all too banal bleat of those whose argument falls at the first hurdle and in the face of that the only retort they can muster is to storm off, because actually trying to answer the simple question posed would unravel their position. One does appreciate the classics when they inevitably and predictably present themselves. It makes for a certain comfort for the reader.

Wibbs · 20-07-2018 12:28AM

Oh and my "first post" that you have "no interest in talking to" me was this:

Wibbs wrote: »

Ehhh... what the hell? That's an utter bloody nonsense and obviously so.

You take someone born male and give them hormone blockers - basically stop testosterone - and their bodies don't go through the changes that testosterone makes for in adolescent males. Development of muscle and bone, more masculine faces, deeper voice, secondary sexual characteristics and so forth. Now if you also go and prescribe female hormones this is a double whammy and bodily changes occur like growth of breast tissue and so forth. Take someone born female and block those hormones and dose them up with male levels of testosterone and you get the opposite effect, more muscle mass, denser bones, facial hair, larger jaws etc.

This is why they do this for Christ's sake; to block the more obvious signs of male or femaleness so the person can grow as the preferred gender and "pass" more easily as an adult. If this was reversible as you claim then they wouldn't have to do any of that, they could wait until adulthood and simply block/increase hormone profiles then and, voila change someone from one gender to someone with adult male or female characteristics. Oh wait, it doesn't work like that.

If this is an example of what you(and others) think is "science" and some doctors in the field are claiming this then... well, it's very bad "science", it's well dodgy medicine and it's straying into the territory of utter bollocks.

I stand by every word and more, I can back every word with actual science and logic. The best of luck with what passes for your position while you try to do similarly.

WinnyThePoo · 20-07-2018 12:29AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Why yes I am, and anyone else reading the thread will read it too. Those "random posts?"

(followed by the worst picture you think you could paint of me and my argument). You posted those "random posts" in an effort to conflate my position with theirs, so you're acting quite deliberately dishonestly with it.

And yet you did. The "I'm out!" is the all too banal bleat of those whose argument falls at the first hurdle and in the face of that the only retort they can muster is to storm off, because actually trying to answer the simple question posed would unravel their position. One does appreciate the classics when they inevitably and predictably present themselves. It makes for a certain comfort for the reader.

Okay 'W' , whatever you say. I just same as you. Emulation I think its called. Anyway your looking for a fight or something...I'm not giving you it.

WinnyThePoo · 20-07-2018 12:30AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh and my "first post" that you have "no interest in talking to" me was this:

I stand by every word and more, I can back every word with actual science and logic. The best of luck with what passes for your position while you try to do similarly.

I

Jesus...I wasn't talking about your 'first post' on the thread??

Get with the times

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-07-2018 12:39AM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

1000%.

In time people will learn that just because someone has a face like Brian Blessed and are packing 8 inches of glory between their legs doesn't mean that they are any less a woman than our own mother or sister.

I hope you're joking!

Wibbs · 20-07-2018 12:56AM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Okay 'W' , whatever you say. I just same as you. Emulation I think its called.

Projection maybe?

Anyway your looking for a fight or something...I'm not giving you it.

I'm looking for an answer to a simple question. God forbid.

P_1 · 20-07-2018 01:14AM

Calhoun wrote: »

Had to look up Swerf and Terf (I don't know), are all men rapists? depends on where you go in society today but probably a good chance that parts of our society think like this, same side as the folks who want young children to be able to decide on medical treatsment's.

Did the sky fall in with marriage equality or the 8th? no it didnt but the difference was both of these issues were to do with issues around adults. Why so many people are vocal on this on is because it has a link to children.

Every movement does have its extremist sure but right now for such an apparent small minority the LGBT group has a fairly powerful voice, and as seen in other jurisdictions has enacted laws that could see children removed from parents.

Ok that's fair enough and apologies if I came across somewhat arseish.

I guess seeing such apparent latent transphobia was a bit of a red rag to a bull moment for me. Context, a few close friends of mine are transitioning and quite often go through some dark times and they attribute their poor mental health towards not being able to transition sooner so seeing people trivialise it as a fad crosses a line for me.

One final point, Ireland is finally getting towards Connolly's vision of a republic, as a people we have a latent sense of what's the right thing to do. I highly doubt that we'd see some of the more extremes emerge (such as children being removed from their parents) here. However, based on both what I've seen people close to me go through and the recommendations of those who deal with the fallout of it, 16 is the right age to be allowed to make that choice for yourself. Remember that one must live full time as the opposite gender for 3 years before they can commence transitioning if that is what they need to do.

One eyed Jack · 20-07-2018 04:30AM

P_1 wrote: »

Ok that's fair enough and apologies if I came across somewhat arseish.

I guess seeing such apparent latent transphobia was a bit of a red rag to a bull moment for me. Context, a few close friends of mine are transitioning and quite often go through some dark times and they attribute their poor mental health towards not being able to transition sooner so seeing people trivialise it as a fad crosses a line for me.

One final point, Ireland is finally getting towards Connolly's vision of a republic, as a people we have a latent sense of what's the right thing to do. I highly doubt that we'd see some of the more extremes emerge (such as children being removed from their parents) here. However, based on both what I've seen people close to me go through and the recommendations of those who deal with the fallout of it, 16 is the right age to be allowed to make that choice for yourself. Remember that one must live full time as the opposite gender for 3 years before they can commence transitioning if that is what they need to do.

I don't share your confidence in the unlikelyhood that we will see the extremes emerge such as children being removed from their parents, particularly when we have laws which already allow for the removal of children from their parents if it is considered in the best interests of the children to do so. Just in relation to that point, there are a couple of things I would like to draw your attention to which are outlined in S.12 of the Gender Recognition Act:

The Minister may only consider an application for a gender recognition certificate under section 8 or 11 or for revocation of a gender recognition certificate under section 15, made on behalf of a child who has attained the age of 16 but not 18 years, if furnished with an order of the court under this section.

...

The court may make an order dispensing with the requirement of the consent of a person referred to in subsection (4)(a) to the making of an order under this section where satisfied that the consent cannot be obtained because the person cannot be identified or found or is failing or neglecting to respond to a request for consent or should not be obtained because the nature of the relationship between the child concerned and the person shows that it would not be in the interest of the safety or welfare of the child to contact the person.

In short, if the Courts determine that it is in the best interests of the child to allow them to begin their transition, they don't require parental consent, and if it is determined that the best interests of the child are served by removing them from the family home and placing the child in the care of the State, the Courts already have the power to do that too under Article 42a of the Irish Constitution.

So what are the criteria for determining a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in a child? Well, according to the HSE's A-Z of conditions:

Criteria for children

To be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, a child should experience the following for at least 6 months:

1. Want to be the same sex

Repeatedly insist they want to be the opposite sex, or they are the opposite sex, and behave as the opposite sex. This must not be just because they want the supposed advantages of being the opposite sex.

2. Dislike of certain clothes

Dislike or refuse to wear clothes typically worn by their sex and insist on wearing clothes typically worn by the opposite sex. Or show dislike or unhappiness with their genitalia and insist that it will change into that of the opposite sex. For example, refusing to pass urine as members of their sex usually do.

3. Puberty

Have not yet reached puberty.

And the treatment of gender dysphoria in children? Well, it depends upon whether or not they've reached puberty yet -

Children before puberty

If your child is diagnosed with gender dysphoria before they reach puberty (when a child progresses into a sexually developed adult), they will not receive endocrine treatment. Endocrine treatment is treatment with hormones (powerful chemicals). It is the first step to developing the physical signs of your preferred gender.

Guidelines from the Endocrine Society in the UK do not recommend endocrine treatment for young children because a diagnosis of transsexualism cannot be made before a child has reached puberty. Transsexualism is a life-long and extreme form of gender dysphoria, when someone seeks to change their sex.

The Endocrine Society found that 75-80% of children who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria before they reached puberty did not have the condition after puberty. Therefore, endocrine treatment is not recommended until after puberty, when a diagnosis of gender dysphoria can be confirmed.

The part I underlined in bold there is important as it relates to your friends complaint that they attribute their current difficulties with their mental health to not being permitted to transition sooner in their lives. There are good reasons for that. They may consider it unfair, and many adults who are transgender share the same sentiments, which is why there is a greater influence among advocates for rights for people who are transgender to allow children to start their transition as early as possible.

Your friends however have the benefit of far greater hindsight than as children they had foresight, which is why permitting children to transition as early as possible is generally frowned upon, as they lack the requisite knowledge to have the capacity to understand the potential long term consequences of their decisions. Consequences and potential risks which even adult scientists and the medical community who have dedicated their lives to the study of endocrinology don't fully understand the long-term effects of yet -

Will I always have to take hormones?

Yes, you will need to take hormones for the rest of your life if you want to maintain the feminising effects of oestrogen or the masculinising effects of testosterone. If, at any stage, you decide to have your testes (trans women) or your ovaries (trans men) removed by surgery:

- your dose of hormones will usually be reduced but it should still be enough to produce the effects that you need and to keep you well, and to protect you against osteoporosis (thinning of the bones) as you get older, and

- if you are still on hormone blockers, you will stop taking them altogether.

What are the risks of hormone treatment?

Ideally, medical treatment should be based on scientific evidence, but there is little research about the use of cross-sex hormones. Guidance is therefore provided, which may be used flexibly, taking account of your particular needs and keeping the risk to your health as low as possible.

I don't expect a child has that level of comprehension to fully appreciate the consequences of their decisions, even when they do reach the age of 16, let alone before then, and this is borne out by a survey conducted by the HSE into the issue of healthcare for people who are transgender in Ireland -

Transgender Healthcare Survey Findings 2012 (n = 793).

1.  41% indicated that they have a poor level of knowledge or know nothing about transgender health issues. Only 18% indicated that they have a good level of knowledge and just 1% of respondents indicated that they have an expert level (9 people): “This is becoming a more pertinent issue, which does require frontline staff to be better informed.”

2.  The key finding from this question – and from the entire survey - is that 90% of people who completed the survey stated that they have not had any training in this area. This result illustrates the need for provision of training.

3.  74% of respondents would like to have training in this area.

If adults who are healthcare professionals have a poor understanding of healthcare for people who are transgender, I don't expect children who are not healthcare professionals to have sufficient capacity to be able to understand their own condition, let alone the potential consequences of their decisions they make for themselves as children.

Peak Trans

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