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best way to monitor/control alarm from smart phone

  • 16-07-2018 07:38PM
    #1
    baby fish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭


    I would like to know how to control an alarm(that I havent installed yet) with a smart phone, I can obviously (and will) talk to the people I got a quote from but Id like to have some idea what I'm talking about first.

    so here's where I am

    HKC10/70 , plus GSMSC card (150 euro approx), yearly subscription to installer (100 euro approx) , plus HKC app purchase ( 8 euro) .

    So after installation it will cost about 100e per year. Am I missing anything?

    Does the above rely on my home router to connect with my smart phone?

    Essentially I just want an alarm on my house plus it would be good if with my smart phone know if it is set off, what sensors were triggered, turn it on/off.

    Any other alternative methods of syncing alarm to smart phone?

    Thanks


«1

Comments

  • #2
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    There are plenty of alternative methods.
    You can use your router alone without any subscriptions. This would be dependent on your broadband connection only. You would not get alarm notifications if your broadband is down but you will get a comms fail notification in a matter of minutes,.
    GSD & Siemens Vanderbilt also have whats called smash & grab alerts where you will get instant notifications if power is cut or broadband is cut after an alarm event .
    Both these manufacturers apps are free to download.
    All systems can also have a back up via GSM/GPRS that will continue to notify you of all events during a power fail or broadband fail.
    Worth shopping around as they would be a lot cheaper than €100 per annum.
    Some goon information in the sticky here
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782
    Have a look over it & come back if you have any more questions.


  • #3
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,586 ✭✭✭kub


    KoolKid wrote: »
    There are plenty of alternative methods.
    You can use your router alone without any subscriptions. This would be dependent on your broadband connection only. You would not get alarm notifications if your broadband is down but you will get a comms fail notification in a matter of minutes,.
    GSD & Siemens Vanderbilt also have whats called smash & grab alerts where you will get instant notifications if power is cut or broadband is cut after an alarm event .
    Both these manufacturers apps are free to download.
    All systems can also have a back up via GSM/GPRS that will continue to notify you of all events during a power fail or broadband fail.
    Worth shopping around as they would be a lot cheaper than €100 per annum.
    Some goon information in the sticky here
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782
    Have a look over it & come back if you have any more questions.




    Thank you KoolKid.


  • #4
    baby fish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭baby fish


    Ok, I've read a fair bit of the linked thread, think its getting a bit clearer now...thanks...its either pay for the app that should provide remote control 100% of the time as long as HKC server is working.....or use the free app option that will provide similar remote control 100% of the time - as long as there is a broadband connection.

    1.The possible backup provided by GSM/GPRS , what can this actually do?
    Is it just text messages providing communication from the panel?
    What type of info will it send and is remote control a possibility through GSM/GPRS?

    2.Life span of components in different alarm systems:
    HKC vs Siemens vs GSD

    Can we expect a similar life span from all?

    3. Is there a free app that can be used with HKC alarm? I presume not...

    And two questions irrelevant of what manufacturer is used:
    4. What are the most common cause of nuisance alarm activation?

    5. If an installer goes out of business, can another installer work on the alarm or will the original installer have the panel locked with a PIN?

    Thanks


  • #5
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Note I'm not an installer, just an interested DIYer
    baby fish wrote: »
    Ok, I've read a fair bit of the linked thread, think its getting a bit clearer now...thanks...its either pay for the app that should provide remote control 100% of the time as long as HKC server is working.....or use the free app option that will provide similar remote control 100% of the time - as long as there is a broadband connection.

    1.The possible backup provided by GSM/GPRS , what can this actually do?
    Is it just text messages providing communication from the panel?
    What type of info will it send and is remote control a possibility through GSM/GPRS?

    It depends. GSM only would just operate by text messages. GPRS (or 3G/4G LTE) work by IP and offer full range of controls/notifications and can also do text.

    You mentioned the HKC GSM-SC, that works by IP over GPRS and can also send texts.

    Another option worth looking at is the HKC GSM-Wifi which communicates by IP over both wifi and GPRS and can all send texts. This sounds like a better option then the GSM-SC to me.
    baby fish wrote: »
    2.Life span of components in different alarm systems:
    HKC vs Siemens vs GSD

    Can we expect a similar life span from all?

    Most likely.
    baby fish wrote: »
    3. Is there a free app that can be used with HKC alarm? I presume not...

    No
    baby fish wrote: »
    And two questions irrelevant of what manufacturer is used:
    4. What are the most common cause of nuisance alarm activation?

    I'd suspect wind, etc. triggering shock sensors. Also badly placed PIR's picking up light from windows, etc.
    baby fish wrote: »
    5. If an installer goes out of business, can another installer work on the alarm or will the original installer have the panel locked with a PIN?

    Thanks

    Always make sure to make it a pre-requiste of any install (tell them before hand when getting a quote and make sure it is included on the quote) to get the engineering code for the alarm system.

    The engineering code allows others installers to service the panel with ease.

    Depending on the panel, it might be possible for an engineer to reset it, but easier for everyone if you get this up front.


  • #6
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    baby fish wrote: »
    Ok, I've read a fair bit of the linked thread, think its getting a bit clearer now...thanks...its either pay for the app that should provide remote control 100% of the time as long as HKC server is working.....or use the free app option that will provide similar remote control 100% of the time - as long as there is a broadband connection.
    You are correct there as long as the server is up. This brings us onto polling.
    The polling time is how quick you will be notified is all communications are down. There is a vast difference here between HKC, GSD & Siemens Vanderbilt.
    HKC is 5 hours(90 minutes on the dearer package)
    GSD can be set as low as 5 minutes
    Siemens Vanderbilt can be set as low as 20 seconds.
    These times are for all communications whether it be broadband only or with the app backed up by SIM card.
    baby fish wrote: »
    1.The possible backup provided by GSM/GPRS , what can this actually do?
    Is it just text messages providing communication from the panel?
    What type of info will it send and is remote control a possibility through GSM/GPRS?
    The SIM used in all cases is an international SIM card. This makes all mobile networks available to it.
    The SIM can back up the entire app & have all functions, notifications & remote control still available.
    baby fish wrote: »
    2.Life span of components in different alarm systems:
    HKC vs Siemens vs GSD

    Can we expect a similar life span from all?
    I use all brands & I notice no difference between brands for this.
    baby fish wrote: »
    3. Is there a free app that can be used with HKC alarm? I presume not...
    There is no free option With HKC for their app.
    GSD & Siemens Vanderbilt have options to us the app standalone for free or add a GSM as a back up as described above.
    Also with the back up shop around GSD & Siemens Vanderbilt would be a good bit cheaper & you have much faster polling times.
    baby fish wrote: »
    And two questions irrelevant of what manufacturer is used:
    4. What are the most common cause of nuisance alarm activation?
    I would say activation's from Shock sensors on windows/doors & then faulty devices over time.
    That is not to say don't use shock sensors. I would recommend them on all accessible windows/doors.
    baby fish wrote: »
    5. If an installer goes out of business, can another installer work on the alarm or will the original installer have the panel locked with a PIN?
    Yes. Any good installer would use & be able to take over almost all systems.
    Beware of the cheaper priced options that tie you to monitoring or long term contracts to get their money back. Some of these systems would be tied to the installer .
    Phonewatch would be a good example of this & on top of that you don't own the equipment so you cant change installer or shop around.


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  • #7
    mickuhaha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭mickuhaha


    baby fish wrote: »
    I would like to know how to control an alarm(that I havent installed yet) with a smart phone, I can obviously (and will) talk to the people I got a quote from but Id like to have some idea what I'm talking about first.

    so here's where I am

    HKC10/70 , plus GSMSC card (150 euro approx), yearly subscription to installer (100 euro approx) , plus HKC app purchase ( 8 euro) .

    So after installation it will cost about 100e per year. Am I missing anything?

    Does the above rely on my home router to connect with my smart phone?

    Essentially I just want an alarm on my house plus it would be good if with my smart phone know if it is set off, what sensors were triggered, turn it on/off.

    Any other alternative methods of syncing alarm to smart phone?

    Thanks

    Can I ask who gave you that qoute?


  • #8
    baby fish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭baby fish


    mickuhaha wrote: »
    Can I ask who gave you that qoute?

    maybe my opening post wasn't very clear? maybe you are reading the alarm costs 150e in total? its not...

    it is HKC alarm plus all sensors , sirens , keypads etc ( I didn't actually give a quote for this part because its not relevant to the post, as it depends on how many keypads. sensors etc you have specified)

    Im more interested in self monitoring so I started with the prices from here:

    for self monitoring it is the cost of above PLUSonce off payments of
    150e + VAT for GSMSC card
    8e HKC app purchase

    then plus annual payment of
    100e + VAT for HKC annual subscription and a maintenance contract with installer. (unless it is possible to get an installer who will install the alarm and provide a method of a direct contract with HKC for the app only - I havent found one yet)


  • #9
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,586 ✭✭✭kub


    baby fish wrote: »
    Ok, I've read a fair bit of the linked thread, think its getting a bit clearer now...thanks...its either pay for the app that should provide remote control 100% of the time as long as HKC server is working.....or use the free app option that will provide similar remote control 100% of the time - as long as there is a broadband connection.


    Just to avoid any confusion with regard to the HKC server and it working as some sort of a bonus, it works all the time, there was a recent issue with their Mobile Data Provider which caused intermittent faults, as in a few minutes. But it does work.
    It will continue to work even if your router is down, power off or a broadband issue in your neighbourhood.


    baby fish wrote: »
    1.The possible backup provided by GSM/GPRS , what can this actually do?
    Is it just text messages providing communication from the panel?
    What type of info will it send and is remote control a possibility through GSM/GPRS?


    It sends all details to you via IP, You have full control of the system once your phone has 3/4 g coverage.
    If you are in an area with poor mobile coverage on your phone then the SMS back up is a very handy tool, you can then control the system via text, old fashioned yes but better than nothing.



    baby fish wrote: »
    2.Life span of components in different alarm systems:
    HKC vs Siemens vs GSD

    Can we expect a similar life span from all?


    I can answer for definite for 2 out of 3 there and say yes but as I cannot speak for all 3 then I am not going to mention any names but I will say all comply with the relevant standards.

    baby fish wrote: »
    3. Is there a free app that can be used with HKC alarm? I presume not...


    No not currently anyway.

    baby fish wrote: »
    And two questions irrelevant of what manufacturer is used:
    4. What are the most common cause of nuisance alarm activation?


    Badly installation practices, poor quality equipment, inexperienced installers.
    Other than those and as others have mentioned, Passive Infrared Beams fitted in incorrect places and inertia shock sensors on windows with large shrubbery nearby that hits the window when the wind blows.
    Basically mostly avoidable stuff that any experienced guy would know about.




    baby fish wrote: »
    5. If an installer goes out of business, can another installer work on the alarm or will the original installer have the panel locked with a PIN?

    Thanks


    Just with regard to this PIN or engineer code, this code is not unique to any one system, it is usually a common code for all of that Alarm Companies systems, therefore that is why it is usually a closely guarded secret as if it git out then all the companies other systems are vulnerable and it is after all a security system/


    As regards another company taking over for another, it is never an issue, but as mentioned above, i agree regarding agreeing on getting an engineering code at the time of commissioning the system, you might have to sign a disclaimer though.


  • #10
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    kub wrote: »
    Just with regard to this PIN or engineer code, this code is not unique to any one system, it is usually a common code for all of that Alarm Companies systems, therefore that is why it is usually a closely guarded secret as if it git out then all the companies other systems are vulnerable and it is after all a security system/

    Engineering codes can be set on a per panel basis if the customer wants it and every customer should.

    Or just leave it at the default and leave the customer change it themselves.

    Also this idea that giving out engineering codes as being dangerous is WAY overstated. The EN specs require that the user code most be entered before the panel accepts the engineering code, so there is really no added danger giving out the engineering code.


  • #11
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The old engineer code is a debate we haven't had in a while.(Thank god!)

    Its not dangerous. But an engineer/company is certifying a system to a certain standard (A poor one I know) They are also certifying everything is installed & working correctly. If the end user has access to make changes to that I,for one, would be asking them to sign a disclaimer & withdrawing certification.


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  • #12
    baby fish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭baby fish


    kub wrote: »
    Just to avoid any confusion with regard to the HKC server and it working as some sort of a bonus, it works all the time, there was a recent issue with their Mobile Data Provider which caused intermittent faults, as in a few minutes. But it does work.
    It will continue to work even if your router is down, power off or a broadband issue in your neighbourhood.

    I know people who are very happy with HKC and its app, so Im sure it does work, and they are happy to pay for this service.

    My OP was just looking for an alternative to paying (cheap me:D), yes I know my my router and electrical supply has more potential to be down on more days when compared to a paid app, but honestly - my broadband was down maybe 2 days over 3 or 4 years and electrical outage a handful of days over a similar period(yes I know there is a bit of luck involved with storms etc)

    I doubt people are waiting for a broadband and electrical outage to gain entry to my house ? The back up battery will continue to function on the alarm anyway? for me, having the alarm on the wall is the main deterrent.

    I really only want remote control of my alarm over my smartphone to turn it off if there is a nuisance activation and I'm away. just thinking of my neighbours really:). Im not interested in phonewatch or any paid service to a call center - I'm not knocking them either , Im just not interested in paying for that.

    Im Just looking for a cost effective way that works !where I can self monitor my alarm with smartphone, the 99.9% of the time my home router and electrical supply work, seems like a good option for me.

    Again, Im not knocking HKC, I know people who are very happy with it..

    So here is a biggest problem at moment... every installer Ive spoken to only installs HKC:confused: so its difficult to find an alternative to HKC


  • #13
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    baby fish wrote: »
    I know people who are very happy with HKC and its app, so Im sure it does work, and they are happy to pay for this service.

    My OP was just looking for an alternative to paying (cheap me:D), yes I know my my router and electrical supply has more potential to be down on more days when compared to a paid app, but honestly - my broadband was down maybe 2 days over 3 or 4 years and electrical outage a handful of days over a similar period(yes I know there is a bit of luck involved with storms etc)

    I doubt people are waiting for a broadband and electrical outage to gain entry to my house ? The back up battery will continue to function on the alarm anyway? for me, having the alarm on the wall is the main deterrent.

    I really only want remote control of my alarm over my smartphone to turn it off if there is a nuisance activation and I'm away. just thinking of my neighbours really:). Im not interested in phonewatch or any paid service to a call center - I'm not knocking them either , Im just not interested in paying for that.

    Im Just looking for a cost effective way that works !where I can self monitor my alarm with smartphone, the 99.9% of the time my home router and electrical supply work, seems like a good option for me.

    Again, Im not knocking HKC, I know people who are very happy with it..

    So here is a biggest problem at moment... every installer Ive spoken to only installs HKC:confused: so its difficult to find an alternative to HKC


    Your opinion is pretty common.
    Shop around. If you contact Siemens Vanderbilt or GSD they will put you in contact with installers in your area.


  • #14
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    KoolKid wrote: »
    The old engineer code is a debate we haven't had in a while.(Thank god!)

    Its not dangerous. But an engineer/company is certifying a system to a certain standard (A poor one I know) They are also certifying everything is installed & working correctly. If the end user has access to make changes to that I,for one, would be asking them to sign a disclaimer & withdrawing certification.

    I'm of the opinion that it is my property, I'm paying for it, so I should do what I please with it. Otherwise, what is the point in going with an independent installer, I might as well go with phonewatch.

    Fair enough on withdrawing certification, but that isn't a big deal anyway as we all recommend for people NOT to include their alarm system on home insurance anyway, so really not a big issue at all.


  • #15
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    baby fish wrote: »
    My OP was just looking for an alternative to paying (cheap me:D), yes I know my my router and electrical supply has more potential to be down on more days when compared to a paid app, but honestly - my broadband was down maybe 2 days over 3 or 4 years and electrical outage a handful of days over a similar period(yes I know there is a bit of luck involved with storms etc)

    I doubt people are waiting for a broadband and electrical outage to gain entry to my house ? The back up battery will continue to function on the alarm anyway? for me, having the alarm on the wall is the main deterrent.

    I really only want remote control of my alarm over my smartphone to turn it off if there is a nuisance activation and I'm away. just thinking of my neighbours really:). Im not interested in phonewatch or any paid service to a call center - I'm not knocking them either , Im just not interested in paying for that.

    Im Just looking for a cost effective way that works !where I can self monitor my alarm with smartphone, the 99.9% of the time my home router and electrical supply work, seems like a good option for me.

    I believe what you say above is actually what the vast majority of people actually want. I don't think most want to pay for self monitoring and there is a really a demand in the market for people like you and me.

    Unfortunately HKC seem to be the choice for the majority of installers in Ireland and HKC have opted to charge for their monitoring service, which results most installers pushing that option even though it isn't what most people want.

    I think this is a mistake by HKC as it leaves an opening for new companies to come along and disrupt their business. Google Nest, Amazon Ring, Samsung ADT are all coming from the US with options with free self monitoring. Just as Climote was wiped out by Nest, etc. HKC face the same threat.

    I opted to go with a Yale system recently as it offers self monitoring for free with an app. It isn't as good as a HKC system in other ways, but it was much cheaper to install, no ongoing fees and does what I need. I'm not necessarily recommending this system to you, it is a DIY system, but just offering this as an example of how a company can start losing customers.

    BTW Depending on your area, it should be possible to find installers who do other systems.


  • #16
    baby fish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭baby fish


    bk wrote: »
    insurance

    I was going to ask whats the point of certification, maybe above answers that, is insurance the only reason? I wasn't going to inform insurance company anyway.


    Maybe to finish this code thing - would it be correct to say it would be great if I can agree to get the engineer code....but if i don't, its not a big deal as another professional engineer should be able to access the existing panel anyway.


    This is might be related to above I think... lets say 5-6-7 years down the road I want to replace the batteries before they corrode or run low..... can I do this myself or do I need the engineer code to do this?


  • #17
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    bk wrote: »
    I'm of the opinion that it is my property, I'm paying for it, so I should do what I please with it. Otherwise, what is the point in going with an independent installer, I might as well go with phonewatch.

    Fair enough on withdrawing certification, but that isn't a big deal anyway as we all recommend for people NOT to include their alarm system on home insurance anyway, so really not a big issue at all.

    I have no problem with that at all.
    The argument about it being your equipment is an interesting one.
    Try argue that with Apple /Android or any other devices in your home and request the manufacturer codes or programming codes etc.


  • #18
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    baby fish wrote: »

    Maybe to finish this code thing - would it be correct to say it would be great if I can agree to get the engineer code....but if i don't, its not a big deal as another professional engineer should be able to access the existing panel anyway.


    This is might be related to above I think... lets say 5-6-7 years down the road I want to replace the batteries before they corrode or run low..... can I do this myself or do I need the engineer code to do this?

    Any good installer can look after and unlock the panel for you.
    With HKC Quantum you will need the engineer code to reset the battery timer if you want to change the panel battery yourself.


  • #19
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    baby fish wrote: »
    I was going to ask whats the point of certification, maybe above answers that, is insurance the only reason? I wasn't going to inform insurance company anyway.

    Yes only reason.
    baby fish wrote: »
    Maybe to finish this code thing - would it be correct to say it would be great if I can agree to get the engineer code....but if i don't, its not a big deal as another professional engineer should be able to access the existing panel anyway.

    This is might be related to above I think... lets say 5-6-7 years down the road I want to replace the batteries before they corrode or run low..... can I do this myself or do I need the engineer code to do this?

    Personally I wouldn't do business with any installer who wouldn't give you the codes.

    Yes having the code allows you to maintain the system yourself and DIY it.


  • #20
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    KoolKid wrote: »
    I have not problem with that at all.
    The argument about it being your equipment is an interesting one.
    Try argue that with Apple /Android or any other devices in your home and request the manufacturer codes or programming codes etc.

    Well Android is open source.... Yes I know ironic today given the EU action against Google!

    You can certainly get Android phones whose boot loader is unlocked and you can then build your own version of Android and put it on it. Been there, done that.

    I've an iPhone and it is jailbroken, I put all sorts of unauthorized software on it.

    Most people in IT have a preference towards open source and transparent systems rather then closed boxes. Security through obscurity is not good.

    Anyway I wouldn't really consider this the same, the engineer code doesn't give you access to HKC's code either, just to power user/admin features.

    I'd consider this to being more like Apple/Google putting an engineer code on your phone and you needing to pay an engineer to come around to your home any time you wanted to install an app or make some other basic config change.

    Or like Apple/Microsoft not allowing you access to the admin account on a Mac or Windows! I'm sure you wouldn't accept that and rightfully so.


  • #21
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    bk wrote: »
    Well Android is open source.... Yes I know ironic today given the EU action against Google!

    You can certainly get Android phones whose boot loader is unlocked and you can then build your own version of Android and put it on it. Been there, done that.

    I've an iPhone and it is jailbroken, I put all sorts of unauthorized software on it.

    Most people in IT have a preference towards open source and transparent systems rather then closed boxes. Security through obscurity is not good.

    Anyway I wouldn't really consider this the same, the engineer code doesn't give you access to HKC's code either, just to power user/admin features.

    I'd consider this to being more like Apple/Google putting an engineer code on your phone and you needing to pay an engineer to come around to your home any time you wanted to install an app or make some other basic config change.

    Or like Apple/Microsoft not allowing you access to the admin account on a Mac or Windows! I'm sure you wouldn't accept that and rightfully so.

    All good examples ,but you dont hold Microsoft/Apple responsible if something you added/ installed something or some changes you make on your PC/Mac doesn't work or causes issues with the device .
    If someone wants to maintain their own system & they are willing to take responsibility for it then I have no problem installing it & giving them engineer access. The engineer code isn't going to prevent someone else taking the system over etc. Its there to protect certain settings that ensure the correct operation of the system.
    Likewise there are manufacturer access codes that I as an installer would have no access to . I'm sure any manufacturer would not be happy to stand over systems where alterations could be made at this level.
    What about all the white goods/electronic goods in your home? Should you have service menu access/manufacturer access to all those also?


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  • #22
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    KoolKid wrote: »
    All good examples ,but you dont hold Microsoft/Apple responsible if something you added/ installed something or some changes you make on your PC/Mac doesn't work or causes issues with the device .

    Yes and I wouldn't hold the installer of an alarm system responsible either for something that I changed. That goes without saying.
    KoolKid wrote: »
    Likewise there are manufacturer access codes that I as an installer would have no access to . I'm sure any manufacturer would not be happy to stand over systems where alterations could be made at this level.

    Of course and no one is asking them to.

    If I buy a windows laptop, I can blow away windows, compile my own version of Linux and install it on it no problem. Of course I can't then complain to Microsoft if something goes wrong, nor Dell, at least not without first re-installing windows and returning it to factory settings. Been doing this for decades as have many.
    KoolKid wrote: »
    What about all the white goods/electronic goods in your home? Should you have service menu access/manufacturer access to all those also?

    But I do, pretty much everything. You can download the service manual for pretty much any white good and access service menus and mess around with it if you want.

    I've tuned the settings on my TV (beyond user settings) and did basic repairs on washing machine and dish washer.

    Frankly it is only the security alarm industry that has these sort of lock downs and it isn't justified IMO, it is just protectionism.

    The only equivalent that I can really think of is where you get a laptop/pc from work and they have the admin account locked down and you have to contact an admin to install new software.

    A complete pain and everyone hates this and the industry is moving away from it (see Bring Your Own Device trend).

    But it is fair enough because you don't own the machine, it is your employers property. But no one would accept such restrictions on a laptop they buy in a store and rightfully so. And an alarm system I buy should be no different.


  • #23
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I suppose we could trow examples around all night if we wanted to but there are levels on all devices you don't have access to.
    Are you happy with engineer access? Or would you expect manufacturer access to their menus also.
    With alarms the vast majority of people want & expect the installer to be responsible for it. I even get calls from neighbors thinking I should be responsible because their neighbors alarm or rather YOUR ALARM is activating can you turn it off. But that is for another discussion sometime.:D

    If someone is buying an alarm as an appliance that they are going to look after, maintain & be responsible for then of course they should have engineer/programming access to it.


  • #24
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    KoolKid wrote: »
    I suppose we could trow examples around all night if we wanted to but there are levels on all devices you don't have access to.
    Are you happy with engineer access? Or would you expect manufacturer access to their menus also.
    With alarms the vast majority of people want & expect the installer to be responsible for it. I even get calls from neighbors thinking I should be responsible because their neighbors alarm or rather YOUR ALARM is activating can you turn it off. But that is for another discussion sometime.:D

    Most people don't do their own electrical work, plumbing, car maintenance, etc. That isn't the point, my pipes don't have an engineering code on them stopping me for trying to fix them! If I feel like it I can just give it a go, I can. If it works great, if not I call a plumber, he laughs, fixes it and charges me.

    I do basic DIY work all the time, basic electrical jobs, plumbing,
    fix electrical items, etc. around my home all the time. Others might choose not to, but I've saved a bomb by doing so. Obviously a complex job beyond my skills, then I get a professional in.

    I can't think of a single other item in my home that is "locked" down in this manner. Just tonight I replaced a part in my coffee machine, took broken part out, found the part ID and ordered a replacement from Delonghi. No problems, no "engineering codes" to stop my from maintaining my own property.

    Your alarm system should be no different. If you want to get an engineer to look after it, no bother, but if you want to do the basic maintenance yourself, then it is your property and you should have every right to do so. Most of the maintenance jobs aren't complicated, change a battery, etc. Obviously complicated jobs you can get an engineer in, no different then the plumber example above.


  • #25
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The engineer code doesn't stop you doing any of those repairs.
    With the exception of HKCs battery timer on the quantum.
    Again, If you as a consumer want to do that you can & I would have no problem giving any user engineer access to maintain or repair their own system.
    But if I am to be responsible for that system then I would not want anyone making changes that could compromise the operation of the system.

    Most devices have other access that the user would not have access to Alarms are not unique here.
    As I said already , manufacturers would have a higher level of access on an alarm panel that i have. I have not problem with that even on a system I might maintain myself.


  • #26
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,586 ✭✭✭kub


    BK, please be mindful of litigation in this country.


    I mean if I gave a customer engineer access to a system that we installed and we programmed accordingly and they went at it and changed some settings, then they could disable zones on the system etc.


    Now lets just say their house gets broken into and the intruder just happened to come in through one of the windows that the customer had reprogrammed inadvertently, then I can assure you in the majority of these examples, the customer would be pointing the finger of blame at the installer.


    You mentioned other household appliances, plumbing etc that you have repaired yourself.
    Just be careful with the electrics and boiler, they are no no's, you actually could be prosecuted.
    But back to my point, there is a big difference with a implications of a self fix going wrong with a tap or a coffee machine compared with a security system that after failing has contributed to your being ram-sacked and your family upset.


  • #27
    baby fish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭baby fish


    If it doesn't exist, then its surely possible for alarm manufacture to include the possibility something like this:

    Engineer sets up alarm and it is saved as e.g. 'Setup 1' with set up date recorded as part of this file .
    The panel will then keep a log of 'Setup 1' if it was modified i.e. was it altered by someone other than the engineer after first comissioning...

    But like a computer file system, the home owner can add a new 'Setup 2' if they wish. 'Setup 1' still exists and can be used, maybe it could even be locked like an administrator account on a computer. But home owner is still free to do whatever they wish.

    If there is a house break in, it would be simple to see which setup was in use at that time.

    ..to be honest, I wasn't asking if i should get the engineer code to tweak the system myself....I just wondered if I should have it so that I'm not tied to one installer in case he or she retires etc.. .

    It would seem that I can carry out simple maintenance without knowing the code (replace battery in main panel is what I'm thinking)and it is possible for a new engineer to service/change/add to an alarm even if they don't know the original engineer code ..so therefore I happy I don't need to know this code at time time of commissioning.


  • #28
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    baby fish wrote: »
    If it doesn't exist, then its surely possible for alarm manufacture to include the possibility something like this:

    Engineer sets up alarm and it is saved as e.g. 'Setup 1' with set up date recorded as part of this file .
    The panel will then keep a log of 'Setup 1' if it was modified i.e. was it altered by someone other than the engineer after first comissioning...

    But like a computer file system, the home owner can add a new 'Setup 2' if they wish. 'Setup 1' still exists and can be used, maybe it could even be locked like an administrator account on a computer. But home owner is still free to do whatever they wish.

    If there is a house break in, it would be simple to see which setup was in use at that time.

    ..to be honest, I wasn't asking if i should get the engineer code to tweak the system myself....I just wondered if I should have it so that I'm not tied to one installer in case he or she retires etc.. .

    It would seem that I can carry out simple maintenance without knowing the code (replace battery in main panel is what I'm thinking)and it is possible for a new engineer to service/change/add to an alarm even if they don't know the original engineer code ..so therefore I happy I don't need to know this code at time time of commissioning.

    At the end of the day any good installer can reset & maintain the system for you.


  • #29
    Stoner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    bk wrote:
    I've an iPhone and it is jailbroken, I put all sorts of unauthorized software on it.


    That's all fine and possibly not for this forum. Will apple honour a warranty on your phone? There's a bigger picture here anyway

    Some installers were happy to share others eng codes but had an issue sharing their own.

    You can't legally work on the fuseboard on your own house.

    I've always had the codes for my house alarms, but never the certs, I'm happy with that compromise.

    If I want a system for DIY install I have that option now.

    I'm happy that we've banned sharing codes, there was some potentially serious issues with the conduct with respect to eng code sharing.

    So you can get a system a code with no cert, that's a decent compromise
    If you want to know an eng code,call the company, don't post on boards about it.


  • #30
    lopesc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 107 ✭✭lopesc


    Essentially I just want an alarm on my house plus it would be good if with my smart phone know if it is set off, what sensors were triggered, turn it on/off.

    Back on to the topic... I had a similar question to the OP. Currently looking for installers for new alarm. I was wondering what people's opinions of the apps for each system were? All the systems on offer (HKC, Risco, Visionic etc) meet the required standard which is all I need, but beyond that I would consider the usability and features of the app to be important to me. I can see myself using the app all of the time to set the alarm, but I haven't come across any installers who install more than one system and could give a direct comparison of each.

    For example, on the app I would like to view and bypass selected (not pre-selected) zones and to configure new part-set options. Is this standard across all apps, or is there some which provide more functionality than others? I had a look at videos online and from what I saw, I would not be impressed using the HKC app over the iRisco app, for example. Cost not a factor here


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  • #31
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Hi,
    Most good installers would be able to install or give you information about any system.
    All of the system apps will do what you want very easily.
    To Compare :
    If you take a paid for app with GSM/GPRS back up then the real let down on HKC is the polling notifications.
    In the event of a comms fail or the service down
    Systems like Siemens Vanderbilt, GSD and Risco will notify you in minutes. HKC will notify you of comms fail after 5 hours or 90 minutes if you pay an increased rate.
    Siemens Vanderbilt and GSD also have a nice feature we call smash and grab alerts.
    If comms is lost after any alarm event, even entry time started, you will get an instant notification.
    If you are looking for installers for any particular systems I would recommend contacting some of the suppliers. They would put you in contact with good licenced installer's.
    GSD would also match you up with installers in your area.


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