Water charges revisited?

McMurphy · 16-07-2018 10:23PM

blanch152 wrote: »

And how has that €2bn been wasted?

After all, you have been supplied with water, that water has been treated, and there has been investment in repairing leaks.

I was supplied with water long before Irish water was dreamt up by FG.

There was no need for the logos, laughing yoga, the conservation grant and all the other bells and whistles.

The expert committee killed the dream blanch.

As I stated lots of times already.

The emperors got no clothes on.

blanch152 · 16-07-2018 10:29PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I was supplied with water long before Irish water was dreamt up by FG.

There was no need for the logos, laughing yoga, the conservation grant and all the other bells and whistles.

The expert committee killed the dream blanch.

As I stated lots of times already.

The emperors got no clothes on.

So, tell me how much it cost before Irish Water. For all you know, supplying and treating water may now cost a fraction of what it cost before.

charlie14 · 16-07-2018 10:30PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Why would anyone be prosecuted?

Water charges have been suspended, the law has not been repealed.

So what are you saying here, that water charges will be reintroduced with the same metered charges for domestic consumption over the same allowances of "free water" and that we are going to bury more good money after that already wasted on meters ?

blanch152 · 16-07-2018 10:35PM

charlie14 wrote: »

So what are you saying here, that water charges will be reintroduced with the same metered charges for domestic consumption over the same allowances of "free water" and that we are going to bury more good money after that already wasted on meters ?

No, all I am simply saying is that the legal framework that permits water charges has not been repealed. It is therefore an administrative matter rather than a legal one for a future government to reintroduce water charges.

GreeBo · 16-07-2018 10:43PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sooner being decades ago. They weren't my peaceful protests they were the individuals attending.
Meters may have off set the cost of the meters and IW administration.

I get that. It's not a new problem just discovered. They underfunded it for generations. It was not suddenly discovered in 2011.

I'm against being conned. People on welfare would have it paid for them. You don't seem to know what you're arguing for.

Seriously, despite the poor judgement of people who certainly know better going over well covered ground, I suggest you look into things before you comment further.

Doesnt matter if it was decades ago, years ago or months ago.
The point is the exact same.

This "they" you are talking about is the government & local authorities.

So if you dont want IW looking after water and you dont want government/local authorities.....who exactly do you want?

Or is it just a moan and a way of avoiding paying for your utilities like pretty much everyone else on the planet?

charlie14 · 16-07-2018 10:43PM

blanch152 wrote: »

And how has that €2bn been wasted?

After all, you have been supplied with water, that water has been treated, and there has been investment in repairing leaks.

A good chunk of change spent on water meters now rotting away underground as well.

I don`t know about you, but I have been turning on a tap and water has been coming out long long before the Irish Water quango.

GreeBo · 16-07-2018 10:48PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I was supplied with water long before Irish water was dreamt up by FG.

There was no need for the logos, laughing yoga, the conservation grant and all the other bells and whistles.

Yep you had water before IW was setup.
We all did.
Except no one was paying what was required to maintain/improve it.

Guess where that leads to....right where we are now.
Serious infrastructure problems, not enough time or money to fix it and a water shortage due to historic high temperatures & lack of precipitation.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The expert committee killed the dream blanch.

As I stated lots of times already.

The emperors got no clothes on.

You are "arguing" like a 12 year old here. It does nothing to help you make or backup your point.

Simple question.
Taking the fact that we currently dont have enough tax take to fix our water infrastructure. How, other than IW do you propose we get out of the mess we are in now?

btw, "Peaceful protests" aren't going to achieve anything, but I'm sure its a great day out for you and the lads.

charlie14 · 16-07-2018 10:52PM

blanch152 wrote: »

No, all I am simply saying is that the legal framework that permits water charges has not been repealed. It is therefore an administrative matter rather than a legal one for a future government to reintroduce water charges.

So when do see the political toxic cloud of water charges dispersing to bring this about ?

One generation, two,.....?

charlie14 · 16-07-2018 11:00PM

GreeBo wrote: »

btw, "Peaceful protests" aren't going to achieve anything, but I'm sure its a great day out for you and the lads.

Don`t mention "Peaceful protests" to any FG or Labour backbenchers.

They still have a touch of the hebejebes from the last ones.

GreeBo · 16-07-2018 11:02PM

charlie14 wrote: »

A good chunk of change spent on water meters now rotting away underground as well.

I don`t know about you, but I have been turning on a tap and water has been coming out long long before the Irish Water quango.

How are the rotting away underground?
They are in *exactly* the place they should be.

Its clearly also escaped you, but no one was able to maintain the water system so now half of it leaks out.

I'm sure you want to blame IW for that, anything to avoid paying your fair share, but the reality is that you not paying for it is what has it in the heap its in now.
But fire away and keep protesting the charges, see where that gets you.

charlie14 · 16-07-2018 11:18PM

GreeBo wrote: »

How are the rotting away underground?
They are in *exactly* the place they should be.

Its clearly also escaped you, but no one was able to maintain the water system so now half of it leaks out.

I'm sure you want to blame IW for that, anything to avoid paying your fair share, but the reality is that you not paying for it is what has it in the heap its in now.
But fire away and keep protesting the charges, see where that gets you.

Water meters are underground doing nothing and never likely to. A waste of money that could and should have been used to repair leaks.

I do not remember if you were on the mega threads discussion on this subject, but as someone who was, I can assure you nothing about leaks escaped me. Especially that water meters are as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike when it comes to detecting where 50% of treated water leaks are, the mains.

I have always paid for water through general taxation, but you seem to be under the misconception that water charges were contributing anything to water or waste water services.

dense · 16-07-2018 11:41PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Right, but it's also incongruous to claim that the government liberalised the provision of water services in order to comply with a policy that permits the liberalisation of water services. They were already in compliance with that policy.

So, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question.

I didn't say the government has liberalised water services.

It hasn't, yet.

Eurostat made that abundantly clear.

But liberalisation and competition is certainly coming down the track if today's news is anything to go by.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-ervia-split-4129859-Jul2018/

Irish Water to split from Ervia within five years
The water body is to become a standalone utility by the year 2023.

We are currently being denied the advantages that the European Commission sees in liberalisation:

Some essential services — energy, telecommunications, transport, water and post — are still controlled by public authorities rather than private companies in some countries.

What are the advantages of liberalisation?

Consumers can choose from among different service providers and products. For example, in the railway, electricity and gas industries, network operators are now required to give competitors fair access to their networks. In these industries, monitoring fair network access by all suppliers is essential, so that:

consumers can choose the supplier offering the best conditions;
consumers benefit from lower prices and new services which are usually more efficient and consumer-friendly than before;
national economies become more competitive.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/general/liberalisation_en.html

I'm confident its only a matter of time before the EC (working closely with Ireland) will find a remedy to enable us to enjoy the fruits of privatisation and the advantages it offers.

blanch152 · 17-07-2018 12:11AM

charlie14 wrote: »

So when do see the political toxic cloud of water charges dispersing to bring this about ?

One generation, two,.....?

Shifting of goalposts going on now.

Some were saying that water charges had been abolished and/or repealed.

I was just pointing out that the full legal framework for water charges remains in place, and can be activated at any time. If you accept that, then we can move on.

McMurphy · 17-07-2018 05:50AM

GreeBo wrote: »

Yep you had water before IW was setup.
We all did.
Except no one was paying what was required to maintain/improve it.

I think there's a great argument to be had here, and it would mainly boil down to whether anyone was paying enough tax/whether that tax has been mismanaged by successive govts including the last one who blew 2billion on Irish water. But whatever.

Guess where that leads to....right where we are now.
Serious infrastructure problems, not enough time or money to fix it and a water shortage due to historic high temperatures & lack of precipitation.

See my post about project Ireland 2040. Plenty of money, plenty of time.

You are "arguing" like a 12 year old here. It does nothing to help you make or backup your point.

The 'arguing' with some of the IW/FG heads is laborious, I know reminding them that blaming anyone and everyone else for the Irish water debacle is a hard one to swallow, but in light of the expert committee's recommendations, it stops the roundabout dead. Every thing else is dancing on the head of a pin.

Simple question.
Taking the fact that we currently dont have enough tax take to fix our water infrastructure. How, other than IW do you propose we get out of the mess we are in now?

Been answered in the numerous threads by myself and others.

I'll give you a hint..... the 2 billion and counting would have gotten it underway.

btw, "Peaceful protests" aren't going to achieve anything, but I'm sure its a great day out for you and the lads.

Did you just type the above after typing this

You are "arguing" like a 12 year old here. It does nothing to help you make or backup your point.

The Bishop Basher · 17-07-2018 07:03AM

GreeBo wrote: »

But fire away and keep protesting the charges, see where that gets you.

We did.

We won.

There are no charges.

Edward M · 17-07-2018 07:26AM

Rennaws wrote: »

We did.

We won.

There are no charges.

And that is the victory really.
We had so much about the IW situation itself, the amount of people who said they weren't against charges in principle, but it was the set up of the utility, the chance of privatisation, the perks, the waste, the cronyism.
Anyway cross party support for this latest move it seems, though with caution.
A referendum pending on public ownership of water infrastructure?
I think they're gearing up for eventual reintroduction of charges, but without the possible hidden agenda of privatisation being able to be used as a weapon against them and with cross party for support for the utility now, two major stumbling blocks covered.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-water-independence-given-cautious-cross-party-backing-1.3567110?mode=amp

Hitman3000 · 17-07-2018 07:54AM

Edward M wrote:

I think they're gearing up for eventual reintroduction of charges, but without the possible hidden agenda of privatisation being able to be used as a weapon against them and with cross party for support for the utility now, two major stumbling blocks covered.

Just the public now to convince........

dense · 17-07-2018 08:04AM

Edward M wrote: »

And that is the victory really.
We had so much about the IW situation itself, the amount of people who said they weren't againxst charges in principle, but it was the set up of the utility, the chance of privatisation, the perks, the waste, the cronyism.
Anyway cross party support for this latest move it seems, though with caution.
A referendum pending on public ownership of water infrastructure?
I think they're gearing up for eventual reintroduction of charges, but without the possible hidden agenda of privatisation being able to be used as a weapon against them and with cross party for support for the utility now, two major stumbling blocks covered.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-water-independence-given-cautious-cross-party-backing-1.3567110?mode=amp

A referendum/plebiscite is a trojan horse.

It just serves to cement the existence of IW into Irish life for the future thereby requiring the introduction of fake "competition" from other private water utilities who pretend to have customers interests as their primary motivation eager to operate in the Irish market to offer choice to the consumer and to prevent a situation where IW operates as a state aided monopoly.

The next move for any water activists, instead of seeking a referendum, should be the seeking of a complete winding down of Irish Water as an election issue to prevent all of that stupidity.

We know what fake competition and fake consumer choice and service has done for electricity prices here and we should know what keeping Irish Water will do for water charges.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-ervia-split-4129859-Jul2018/

The Bishop Basher · 17-07-2018 08:25AM

Edward M wrote: »

I think they're gearing up for eventual reintroduction of charges, but without the possible hidden agenda of privatisation being able to be used as a weapon against them and with cross party for support for the utility now, two major stumbling blocks covered.

And ignore Section 2.4 a and b of the Oireachtais report on domestic charges ?

That figures..

dense wrote: »

We know what fake competition and fake consumer choice and service has done for electricity prices here and we should know what keeping Irish Water will do for water charges.

Within a couple of years we'll have the most expensive water charges in the EU and just as they have with mortgage interest rates and and motor insurance, the government will scratch their heads, make all the right noises and do nothing.

Sheep breeder · 17-07-2018 08:34AM

The one major issue than has not been tackled is increasing storage capacity and new sources of water, the lakes in roundwood and blessington have not increased in size since they were made and demand has gone crazy for water. In Dublin no well drilling is taking place to add extra supply to the mains like what is being by local authorities through out ireland. Cities in Ireland need extra supplies and the longer it’s left the cost goes up and needs forward thinking.

Edward M · 17-07-2018 09:47AM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

The one major issue than has not been tackled is increasing storage capacity and new sources of water, the lakes in roundwood and blessington have not increased in size since they were made and demand has gone crazy for water. In Dublin no well drilling is taking place to add extra supply to the mains like what is being by local authorities through out ireland. Cities in Ireland need extra supplies and the longer it’s left the cost goes up and needs forward thinking.

Absolutely agree.
We heard so much about the abundance of fresh water here at the time of the protests that you'd think we were living in a rainforest.
The harvesting and storage is an immense issue and needs to be sorted as soon as possible.
The Shannon pipeline of course is being mooted as the big saviour now, but even it is not a definitive answer.
So much needed and with a dry spell as we have now, if it became frequent then even that might not fulfill all the needs.
The effect that a low level Shannon could have on the tourism industry in areas like athlone, carrick on Shannon and the towns and counties around the river could have, might well be devastating if prolonged pumping were to take place.
There are major issues with water supply that haven't been thought out thoroughly at all.

FreudianSlippers · 17-07-2018 10:08AM

dense wrote: »

So we don't actually have a handle on what the average daily supply figure is, nor the average consumption figure, because all households are not metered and because business users usage is unknown.

Which demonstrates that claims about householders using 10% less would have prevented the current scarcity is based on the stuff of fantasy.

This is like beating your head against a wall. I think I'm done with this - it's either purposive deflection and evasion or it's just a pointless conversation because you don't seem to understand even some basics of water supply.

I'm honestly not sure at this point.

FreudianSlippers · 17-07-2018 10:15AM

blanch152 wrote: »

The law allowing water charges has never been repealed to my knowledge.

Correct, it has just been amended. As it stands, charges for excessive use automatically kick in starting January 2019.

FreudianSlippers · 17-07-2018 10:16AM

charlie14 wrote: »

Any idea how many have been prosecuted under that law ?:D

I'm sorry - what section allows for prosecution again?

I'm not saying there is or isn't such a section, I'm just wondering if you have any clue what you're talking about or whether this is some kind of idk what?

FreudianSlippers · 17-07-2018 10:20AM

charlie14 wrote: »

So what are you saying here, that water charges will be reintroduced with the same metered charges for domestic consumption over the same allowances of "free water" and that we are going to bury more good money after that already wasted on meters ?

The rates have not yet been set, but the consumption is in excess of 213,000lpa. Honestly, this is information that you could have found on a brief google search or by simply reading this thread.

The Bishop Basher · 17-07-2018 10:27AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Correct, it has just been amended. As it stands, charges for excessive use automatically kick in starting January 2019.

So a third of us are automatically exempt as we can't be metered.

Sweet..

FreudianSlippers · 17-07-2018 10:30AM

Rennaws wrote: »

So a third of us are automatically exempt as we can't be metered.

Sweet..

If you think wasting a valuable resource is "sweet" then I guess?

The Bishop Basher · 17-07-2018 10:40AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

If you think wasting a valuable resource is "sweet" then I guess?

Along with the vast majority of people in this country, I don’t waste water..

I’m more thinking along the lines that it makes it even more unpalatable and difficult to sell to an already skeptical public..

Seth Brundle · 17-07-2018 10:44AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Rennaws wrote: »

So a third of us are automatically exempt as we can't be metered.

Sweet..

If you think wasting a valuable finite resource is "sweet" then I guess?

FYP

McMurphy · 17-07-2018 10:56AM

I see we've gone full circle, and the wasting water accusations are in full flight again

Yawn.

Water charges revisited?

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