Should we protest against the pope's visit?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 03-07-2018 03:39PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its a crime to be religious! Get over yourself.

Do you mean a crime like homosexuality used to be? Or how about if someone wanted to leave an unhappy marriage? Or what about drinking on a day you happen to have declared as special? Or having a baby out of wedlock?

I wasn't talking out you in particular, obviously, don't be so precious. I was talking about the line about liberalism, as if it is something to be avoided. As I pointed out Liberalism is what has enabled up to break away from the rule of Kings, the control of organisations like the church.

Liberalism as per Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Since we are coming from a past wher liberty and equality were far from the norm, liberalism is looking to challenge the thinking and bring about more freedom and equality. Not sure how anybody can see that in a pejorative sense which is what it is being used in on the quote the you included in your post. I took from your smiley face that you agreed with it.

It’s perfectly easy to criticise liberalism in its old and new sense. In the 19C the liberals were laissez faire fanatics who didn’t want to rescue Irish people from the famine. They were often racist, or in favour of eugenics. Merely it was an opposition to government interference in total. It was a movement of capitalist against landowner. Socialism was something else.

Socialism then dominated the left. Over time the left movement moved away from being driven by the labour movement to being driven by social liberalism.

However this liberalism, while granting some minority rights, is generally ok with war, and economic divisions. The talk of equality is between certain fashionable groups - male and female. Gay and heterosexual. That was also in the socialist movement (in fact most advances were during the left socialist movement) but was secondary to labour rights.

There’s very little talk about economic equality with the death of socialism. Then there’s the racial hucksterism (in the modern American left) of identity politics.

WinnyThePoo · 03-07-2018 04:08PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The modern anti Catholic Irish sound like the kind who would have been kicked out of the orange order in 1950. For being too bigoted.

For the record, not a believer myself.

Nope

Unfortunately trying to blame people for a reaction to the cause doesnt hold up.

martyc5674 · 03-07-2018 07:25PM

So I switched on the RTÉ news there...

Bishop who concealed child abuse... and still hasn’t resigned, or been dismissed.

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/survivors-say-wilson-case-still-a-landmark/news-story/d1c2cccffdb1fcab20548192869de196

And then this...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/mother-and-son-sue-catholic-adoption-agency-and-state-1.3552429?mode=amp

These are just today’s examples of why people don’t want to pay for the Popes visit.
He needs to clean up his shop first.
Marty.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-07-2018 07:32PM

martyc5674 wrote: »

So I switched on the RTÉ news there...

Bishop who concealed child abuse... and still hasn’t resigned, or been dismissed.

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/survivors-say-wilson-case-still-a-landmark/news-story/d1c2cccffdb1fcab20548192869de196

And then this...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/mother-and-son-sue-catholic-adoption-agency-and-state-1.3552429?mode=amp

These are just today’s examples of why people don’t want to pay for the Popes visit.
He needs to clean up his shop first.
Marty.

Are you against the acts of the bishop or the visit is the pope?

I'm guessing the first, in which case whats the point in waiting for the papal visit? You can protest now.

martyc5674 · 03-07-2018 07:37PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Are you against the acts of the bishop or the visit is the pope?

I'm guessing the first, in which case whats the point in waiting for the papal visit? You can protest now.

I’m against the fact that the pope and his predecessors have done SFA about it, and will likely to continue doing SFA about it, only paying lip service here and there.

If it were the CEO of a company who hired a plethora of child abusers and did nothing about it I’d think the very same.

JupiterKid · 03-07-2018 07:38PM

I can understand why so many are very angry at the forthcoming visit of the Pope to Ireland. The Catholic Church did immeasurable and lasting damage to this country and society.

And I’d say those angriest at the church are not “virtue signaling” millennials, who grew up as small children as the Church was in a state of collapse, but the generations over the age of 45-50 who had incredible amounts of abuse meted out to them.

The level of wickedness and cruelty inflicted on children, women, men and just about everyone here without power, wealth and prestige was unbelievable.

Still, I think the Pope should be allowed visit but I want to see many angry protests.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-07-2018 07:39PM

martyc5674 wrote: »

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Are you against the acts of the bishop or the visit is the pope?

I'm guessing the first, in which case whats the point in waiting for the papal visit? You can protest now.

I’m against the fact that the pope and his predecessors have done SFA about it, and will likely to continue doing SFA about it, only paying lip service here and there.

If it were the CEO of a company who hired a plethora of child abusers and did nothing about it I’d think the very same.

Not saying you wouldn't: I'm just arguing why you need to wait to protest.

martyc5674 · 03-07-2018 07:40PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not saying you wouldn't: I'm just arguing why you need to wait to protest.

I don’t want to protest... I just don’t want the fuc€er here unless he cleans up his shop.
And if he did clean up his shop... I’d have a lot of respect for him.

Calahonda52 · 04-07-2018 10:21AM

Taytoland wrote: »

Martin Luther warned you about the papists and only now are we seeing these responses.

As did Big Ian

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-07-2018 12:25PM

martyc5674 wrote: »

I don’t want to protest... I just don’t want the fuc€er here unless he cleans up his shop.
And if he did clean up his shop... I’d have a lot of respect for him.

Well then you have no right to be upset about his visit when he does show up!!

Sycamore Tree · 04-07-2018 01:06PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I love when anybody that doesn't like change brings out the line Liberals.

What are they suggesting, that we shouldn't be liberal? That equality is not a good idea, maybe remove free-speech. Or how about not allowing women to vote? Or same sex couples, should we make that illegal again?

Liberalism is what gave us the freedoms we have today, someone, at some point, stood up against the prevailing system and said they wanted more, they wanted better treatment.

But now, its seen as something dirty. Maybe they think we have enough liberalism. But my bet is the people back then thought exactly the same.

Its got nothing to do with being sneaky. Unlike the CC, the people protesting will do so openly. The CC is the very epitimone of secrecy, even so far as getting scholdren who has been abused to sign confidentiallity agreements.

People are not trying to ruin ot for anybody, they are trying to make the point that we shouldn't,as a society, be so quick to simply welcome and adore people who head organisations that have caused so much pain and heartache.

You might not care, but taxpayers money continues to be given to an organsiation that remains, at its heart, sexist. Does it effect me? No. Is it right? No. Should we try to change things when they are not right? Yes.

Great post. Esp the Liberalism part.

I think people need excellent blinkers to be able to validate and accept the Roman church as a legitimate influence in this country. I see it as a criminal organisation that uses religion to get away with awful crimes.

Sycamore Tree · 04-07-2018 01:11PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

You are simply wrong Donald. The CC agreed a compensation deal but to date have failed to provide the agreed funds back to the state (the state has paid out the money to the victims).

Again, and you really do not seem to want to engage with this point, would you accept this behaviour from any other corporate organisation? Or are you willing to give them a break simply because it is the CC?

You keep harking back to the Garda, in some poor attempt to avoid dealing with the issue, but you are displaying the exact same attitudes. Sure the CC did stuff wrong, but what about the Gardas, and sure didn't they try to change, and isn't it better than having some other religion in charge etc etc.

You made the point that dealing with the garda would somehow help in dealing the church. But we know what the church was up to, we know that from our own experiences and that of other countries. We don't need any steps along the way to understand what happened.

Because the CC undertook exactly the same things in the UK, US, Australia, Canada etc etc. In fact the 1 common factor in all of the cases is the CC protecting itself rather than the victims.

You know why we don't have state visits for corporations? Because they don't sell themselves as the moral arbitrators of the land. Take a simple thing like the Good Friday pub closures. Based on nothing more than religious ideology. Our religion tells us not to drink so therefore nobody can. Now carry that across almost every aspect of your life. It is easy to dismiss it as being overblown now, now that many of the shackles have been removed but the power the CC had at one point in this country is truly scary looking back. And they totally abused that power.

Why exactly have the CC been allowed to get away with non payment of their redress costs? They got a very very very sweet deal from FF so why haven't they ponied up?

martyc5674 · 04-07-2018 01:19PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

martyc5674 wrote: »

I don’t want to protest... I just don’t want the fuc€er here unless he cleans up his shop.
And if he did clean up his shop... I’d have a lot of respect for him.

Well then you have no right to be upset about his visit when he does show up!!

Care to elaborate?...Culture trickles from the top down, the likes of Wilson concealing, saying he has amnesia, where have we heard that before... If that crap wasn't at the very top it wouldn't be tolerated at any other level. But it has been tolerated, and needs to change if they want to grow as an organisation and gain back some of the respect they have lost.

An_Toirpin · 10-07-2018 10:46AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

I can understand why so many are very angry at the forthcoming visit of the Pope to Ireland. The Catholic Church did immeasurable and lasting damage to this country and society.

And I’d say those angriest at the church are not “virtue signaling” millennials, who grew up as small children as the Church was in a state of collapse, but the generations over the age of 45-50 who had incredible amounts of abuse meted out to them.

Sorry but that is garbage. Every indicator will should it is virtue signaling driving this. Yes there was abuse but there is no reason to think it was more commonly meted out to people in religious insitutions. I have yet to see a single case of church related abuse in this country carried out by a non Irish and there is no evidence the Vatican ever endorsed or tuned a blind eye to abuse. It is not suprising either too. The Vatican has very little to do with running the church. Priests are not employees of the Vatican and responsbility lies with their person employer ie the local bishop or the Orders susperior is it was a brother. In the old days we blamed English for our problems and now we blame another set of 'foreigners' Rome.

An_Toirpin · 10-07-2018 10:47AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

I can understand why so many are very angry at the forthcoming visit of the Pope to Ireland. The Catholic Church did immeasurable and lasting damage to this country and society.

And I’d say those angriest at the church are not “virtue signaling” millennials, who grew up as small children as the Church was in a state of collapse, but the generations over the age of 45-50 who had incredible amounts of abuse meted out to them.

Sorry but that is garbage. Every indicator will show you it is virtue signalling millennials driving this. Yes there was abuse but there is no reason to think it was more commonly meted out to people in religious institutions. I have yet to see a single case of church-related abuse in this country carried out by a non Irish and there is no evidence the Vatican ever endorsed or turned a blind eye to abuse. It is not surprising either too. The Vatican has very little to do with running the church. Priests are not employees of the Vatican and responsibility lies with their person employer i.e. the local bishop or the Orders superior is it was a brother. In the old days we blamed English for our problems and now we blame another set of 'foreigners' Rome.

RocketRaccoon · 10-07-2018 10:51AM

What is it with Irish people and wanting to hold protest parades about everything?? You'd be better off having a shower and getting a job.

Leroy42 · 10-07-2018 11:19AM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Sorry but that is garbage. Every indicator will show you it is virtue signalling millennials driving this. Yes there was abuse but there is no reason to think it was more commonly meted out to people in religious institutions. I have yet to see a single case of church-related abuse in this country carried out by a non Irish and there is no evidence the Vatican ever endorsed or turned a blind eye to abuse. It is not surprising either too. The Vatican has very little to do with running the church. Priests are not employees of the Vatican and responsibility lies with their person employer i.e. the local bishop or the Orders superior is it was a brother. In the old days we blamed English for our problems and now we blame another set of 'foreigners' Rome.

Under which guidelines does the CC operate in Ireland? The Cardinal is appointed by whom and reports to whom?

Are you really suggesting that the CC in Ireland is not affiliated in any way with Rome or the Pope? There was a recent change in the way that some parts of the mass was said, was that simply the CC in Ireland making that decision?

There is no evidence that the vatican endorsed or turned a blind eye to abuse? Even the pope doesn't try to state this. He has tried to move the CC away from its past, make up for errors.

You think that looking to protect children, looking for equality of the sexes, you think that is virtue signaling by millenials?

Yes there was abuse but there is no reason to think it was more commonly meted out to people in religious institutions.

So we know the cases of abuse carried out under the CC, you are suggesting that there are other areas that have done as much, if not more? And, although yours is very much a case of whatabouterey, don't you think that any organisation that carried out abuse should be held to account?

Your last line, where you indicate that we are always looking for someone outside to blame. I'm not. It was the CC church here in Ireland. The priests that undertook the rape and abuse of children. That took them out of their beds, their classrooms, their homes, before analy raping them. Before forcing them to undertake sexual acts for their own gratification. I blame the priests that knew about it and did nothing. I blame the Bishops and head of the orders that used the power of the church to cover up these horrible crimes, not out of some concern for the victims but out of a concern for the church itself.

But the Pope is coming over here as the earthly leader of the Church, to try to preach to all those that actively support an organisation that allowed, and in many cases facilitated by keeping their crimes a secret, this to happen. Repeatedly.

An_Toirpin · 10-07-2018 11:24AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Under which guidelines does the CC operate in Ireland? The Cardinal is appointed by whom and reports to whom?

Are you really suggesting that the CC in Ireland is not affiliated in any way with Rome or the Pope? There was a recent change in the way that some parts of the mass was said, was that simply the CC in Ireland making that decision?

There is no evidence that the vatican endorsed or turned a blind eye to abuse? Even the pope doesn't try to state this. He has tried to move the CC away from its past, make up for errors.

You think that looking to protect children, looking for equality of the sexes, you think that is virtue signaling by millenials?

So we know the cases of abuse carried out under the CC, you are suggesting that there are other areas that have done as much, if not more? And, although yours is very much a case of whatabouterey, don't you think that any organisation that carried out abuse should be held to account?

Your last line, where you indicate that we are always looking for someone outside to blame. I'm not. It was the CC church here in Ireland. The priests that undertook the rape and abuse of children. That took them out of their beds, their classrooms, their homes, before analy raping them. Before forcing them to undertake sexual acts for their own gratification. I blame the priests that knew about it and did nothing. I blame the Bishops and head of the orders that used the power of the church to cover up these horrible crimes, not out of some concern for the victims but out of a concern for the church itself.

But the Pope is coming over here as the earthly leader of the Church, to try to preach to all those that actively support an organisation that allowed, and in many cases facilitated by keeping their crimes a secret, this to happen. Repeatedly.

They are affilated but it is not a employee employer relationship.

Don't get me wrong. The Vatican didnt handle the abuse crisis perfectly and there were misakes but it is utterly false to say the Vatican endorsed or covered up abuse. The Vatican has very little role in prevention of clerical child abuse but it does have a role in laicized abusers. There are cases where this was not done properly but I dont except that is tantamonut to cover up. No priest or bishop in Ireland who abused or covered up is still in power. You are living in the past.

JupiterKid · 10-07-2018 11:45AM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

They are affilated but it is not a employee employer relationship.

Don't get me wrong. The Vatican didnt handle the abuse crisis perfectly and there were misakes but it is utterly false to say the Vatican endorsed or covered up abuse. The Vatican has very little role in prevention of clerical child abuse but it does have a role in laicized abusers. There are cases where this was not done properly but I dont except that is tantamonut to cover up. No priest or bishop in Ireland who abused or covered up is still in power. You are living in the past.

No, I think it is you living in the past. 65 years or thereabouts.

You are of course entitled to your views but you being an outright apologist for the church is deeply offensive to many, including the victims of widespread sexual and physical abuse by clergy, women incarceratd in magdalene laundries, dead babies thown into septic tanks, women generally who were treated with contempt (symphisiostomy for instance) as were LGBT individuals, children beaten senseless in Christian Brothers schools. An entire population living in fear and misery due to fire and brimstone preaching from the pulpit. I could go on ad infinitum...And many former religious persons who did a lot of work for that institution and trusted them who now feel deeply betrayed at the revelations of the most sickening abuses.

From my experience (as a 43 year old man) it is the age cohorts from mid 40s to 70s who are angriest at the Irish church. Many of whom I know personally. Yes there are many religious older people and they make up for the most faithful still attending the emptying churches but there are also many older people who are very bitter at the Church of Rome.

The bitterness among some in that generation is palpable. I've been told of heartbreaking and very unsavoury stories of physical, emotional (and privately) of sexual abuse. Abuse that often led to misery, self-loathing, substance abuse (especially alcoholism), emigration, poverty and suicide.

ohnonotgmail · 10-07-2018 11:48AM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

They are affilated but it is not a employee employer relationship.

Don't get me wrong. The Vatican didnt handle the abuse crisis perfectly and there were misakes but it is utterly false to say the Vatican endorsed or covered up abuse. The Vatican has very little role in prevention of clerical child abuse but it does have a role in laicized abusers. There are cases where this was not done properly but I dont except that is tantamonut to cover up. No priest or bishop in Ireland who abused or covered up is still in power. You are living in the past.

Affiliated. FFS. you really dont have a clue. this is what Canon law has to say about the relationship between the Pope and the rest of the church

Canon 331 states that "The vicar of Christ.. . possesses full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely", and canon 333 states that "...By virtue of his office, the Roman pontiff not only possesses power over the universal church, but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power over all particular churches and groups of them."

The pope has complete power and control over the rest of the church.

An_Toirpin · 10-07-2018 12:05PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Affiliated. FFS. you really dont have a clue. this is what Canon law has to say about the relationship between the Pope and the rest of the church

The pope has complete power and control over the rest of the church.

It refers to its pastoral role. If you are correct why hasn't anyone sued the Vatican by now? The role of bishops to the Vatican is like independent contractors or franchisees rather than employees.I dont blame you for not understanding how this works. Mostly church bashers are pretty uninformed in their hysteria.

JupiterKid wrote: »

No, I think it is you living in the past. 65 years or thereabouts.

You are of course entitled to your views but you being an outright apologist for the church is deeply offensive to many, including the victims of widespread sexual and physical abuse by clergy, women incarceratd in magdalene laundries, women generally who were treated with contempt (symphisiostomy for instance) as were LGBT individuals, children beaten senseless in Christian Brothers schools. I could go on ad infinitum...

From my exlerience (as a 43 year old man) it is the age cohorts from mid 40s to 70s who are angriest at the Irish church. Many of whom I know personally. Yes there are many religious older people and they make up for the most faithful still attending the emptying churches but there are also many older people who are very bitter at the Church of Rome.

The bitterness anong some in that generation is palpable. I've been told of heartbreaking and very unsavoury stories of physical (and privately) of sexual abuse. Abuse that often led to misery, self-loathing, substance abuse (especially alcoholism), emigration, poverty and suicide.

I am a lot younger than you and I have been told heartbreaking and unsavoury stories of sexual abuse but not a single one is clerical. So I don't buy the notion that abuse is specifically Catholic clerical issue. It is tragically common everywhere and occurs where it is allowed to occur. The sex abuse revelations were a scandal. The others you mention no, especially not symphisiostomy. As for the so called offense that I am causing by being critical, well no one has a right to not be offended.

ohnonotgmail · 10-07-2018 12:08PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It refers to its pastoral role. If you are correct why hasnt anyone sued teh Vatican by now? The role of a bishop to the Vatican is like a independent contractors or franchisees rather than employees.

It really isnt. You need to learn about the institution you are defending. If the vatican has no role why are they investigating abuse cases?

https://web.archive.org/web/20170516201947/http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Pope-acknowledges-2-000-case-backlog-in-sex-abuse-11144008.php

Leroy42 · 10-07-2018 12:15PM

Yet abuse, unfortunately, is not confined to the CC. But where the CC let itself, the victims and the country down, was the act of covering it up.

They moved priests around without informing others of their crimes. They got children to sign secrecy orders to keep them for talking about it. They withheld the knowledge, and in some cases the evidence, of crimes from the authorities. They claimed that their law, Canon law, took priority over our law.

I suggest that you watch movies like Spotlight to see what the CC is capable of (I know it is a different country and it a movie but it is an easy accessibly way to learn the basics and then you can see the same patterns repeated across the world and in Ireland).

You are dancing around technicalities in your view that its only a pastoral role. He is the head of the CC, Jesus representative on earth. We say a prayer for him every time at mass. We have pictures of him. Was he directly involved in the abuse or cover up, no of course not, but he is the head of the organisation that facilitated it.

The problem for the CC, and what makes it different that some random abuser, apart from the organisational responsibility, is that as Tim Minchin says:

But if you build your church on claims of moral authority
And, with threats of hell, impose it on others in society
Then you, you motherf**ers, can expect some ****ing wrath
When it turn out you've been f***ing us in our motherf***ing asses

. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFsZRQL6QdI

You are trying to pass it off as just one of those things that society has to deal with, but the CC places itself at the very front of telling people what is, and isn't acceptable. They must be held to a higher standard since they claim to be the ones that understand the standard we must live by.

I also found it ironic that you should tell people to stop living in the past. The CC believes in a God that makes us all carry the sin from the man at the very start of creation. That he has held that grudge since then and carries the threat on each and everyone one of us if we don't not ask for forgiveness for this sin.

JupiterKid · 10-07-2018 12:22PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It refers to its pastoral role. If you are correct why hasn't anyone sued the Vatican by now? The role of bishops to the Vatican is like independent contractors or franchisees rather than employees.I dont blame you for not understanding how this works. Mostly church bashers are pretty uninformed in their hysteria.

I am a lot younger than you and I have been told heartbreaking and unsavoury stories of sexual abuse but not a single one is clerical. So I don't buy the notion that abuse is specifically Catholic clerical issue. It is tragically common everywhere and occurs where it is allowed to occur. The sex abuse revelations were a scandal. The others you mention no, especially not symphisiostomy. As for the so called offense that I am causing by being critical, well no one has a right to not be offended.

So beatings of schoolchilden, throwing babies into septic tanks, selling stolen babies to rich Americans for profit, the process of symphiostimy causing lifelong pain and suffering to thousands of women, incarcerating women in magadelene laundries...there were all ok because it wasn't sexual abuse?

Your chilling defense of the completely indefensibile disgusts me.:mad:

I suspect you are a troll.

An_Toirpin · 10-07-2018 01:05PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It really isnt. You need to learn about the institution you are defending. If the vatican has no role why are they investigating abuse cases?

https://web.archive.org/web/20170516201947/http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Pope-acknowledges-2-000-case-backlog-in-sex-abuse-11144008.php

They have the power to strip priests of their office and they do, but that is pretty secondary in the broader effort to protect children. You need to read more.

An_Toirpin · 10-07-2018 01:16PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

So beatings of schoolchilden, throwing babies into septic tanks, selling stolen babies to rich Americans for profit, the process of symphiostimy causing lifelong pain and suffering to thousands of women, incarcerating women in magadelene laundries...there were all ok because it wasn't sexual abuse?

Your chilling defense of the completely indefensibile disgusts me.

I suspect you are a troll.

symphysotomy was and still is a valid medical procedure in certain circumstances. Even if it wasn't it not a Catholic thing. We have medical notes from Obs/ gyn docs and their reasoning is based on Catholic teaching. Their reasoning was to save lives and symphysiotomy was safer. Furthermore, there are no medical symptoms of symphysotomy that are unique to symphysotomy. Difficult births cause the same medical side effects problems. Many women who claimed to have it never got it at all.

As for Tuam, it is not clear what happened there but it is presumptuous in the extreme to assume it was a septic tank. Fake news.

Sycamore Tree · 10-07-2018 01:20PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

As for Tuam, it is not clear what happened there but it is presumptuous in the extreme to assume it was a septic tank. Fake news.

Those Ronan Mullen blinkers fitting you well. There was a septic tank in the area where the mass grave of babies was discovered. What do you think it was?

Leroy42 · 10-07-2018 01:25PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The Vatican has very little to do with running the church. Priests are not employees of the Vatican and responsibility lies with their person employer i.e. the local bishop or the Orders superior is it was a brother. In the old days we blamed English for our problems and now we blame another set of 'foreigners' Rome.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

They are affilated but it is not a employee employer relationship.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It refers to its pastoral role. If you are correct why hasn't anyone sued the Vatican by now? The role of bishops to the Vatican is like independent contractors or franchisees rather than employees.I dont blame you for not understanding how this works. Mostly church bashers are pretty uninformed in their hysteria.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

They have the power to strip priests of their office and they do, but that is pretty secondary in the broader effort to protect children. You need to read more.

Sorry, but which is it? You started off claiming the Vatican had nothing to do with the CC in Ireland, the Pope is only a pastoral leader. And now you are saying that the vatican did try to does something about it nad have the power to strip priests of their office.

It seems to me that everyone is to blame but yet nobody is!

An_Toirpin · 10-07-2018 01:47PM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Those Ronan Mullen blinkers fitting you well. There was a septic tank in the area where the mass grave of babies was discovered. What do you think it was?

Do you know what the word mass grave means? A mass grave is just a collective burial. Any insitition whther prison or hospitals would have more than a few in the grounds.Apperently there used to be headstones.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Sorry, but which is it? You started off claiming the Vatican had nothing to do with the CC in Ireland, the Pope is only a pastoral leader. And now you are saying that the vatican did try to does something about it nad have the power to strip priests of their office.

It seems to me that everyone is to blame but yet nobody is!

No you are misquoting me. The Vatican has a role but it is much smaller than people make it out to be. They have the power to remove someones position as a priest but apart from this it is limited

JupiterKid · 10-07-2018 02:05PM

An_Toirpin wrote: »

symphysotomy was and still is a valid medical procedure in certain circumstances. Even if it wasn't it not a Catholic thing. We have medical notes from Obs/ gyn docs and their reasoning is based on Catholic teaching. Their reasoning was to save lives and symphysiotomy was safer. Furthermore, there are no medical symptoms of symphysotomy that are unique to symphysotomy. Difficult births cause the same medical side effects problems. Many women who claimed to have it never got it at all.

As for Tuam, it is not clear what happened there but it is presumptuous in the extreme to assume it was a septic tank. Fake news.

Your outright lies and distortions are a massive insult to those damaged by the church and what they did in this country. I've no problem with engaging with any poster that wants to debate those against the church with valid informed opinion but your odious views suggest to me a clear attempt at baiting and trolling.

I'm out of this thread for this reason. There is no reasoning whatsoever with posters like you. Absolutely none at all.

Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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