Peak Trans

deco nate · 08-07-2018 02:53AM

sabat wrote: »

Given the shocking suicide rate and high levels of regret following sex change operations it's obvious that many men are not making a true free choice but are being coerced by the medical and media industries into thinking certain mental health problems are something else entirely.
Placing a plastic phallus against a 5 year old girl's vagina and telling her she'll feel better with it there is an act of paedophilia.

Holy fcuk, that's enough internet for you tonight..... Or ever!

sabat · 08-07-2018 03:06AM

deco nate wrote: »

Holy fcuk, that's enough internet for you tonight..... Or ever!

That's exactly what the op describes.

deco nate · 08-07-2018 03:11AM

sabat wrote: »

That's exactly what the op describes.

It's the last part of your post about paedophilia that was a holy fcuk moment.

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 06:45AM

robindch wrote: »

I don't know where you get your information from.

FWIW, my kid has spent the last seven years in a school here in Dublin which would be regarded as amongst the most "progressive" in the country and she will be leaving it soon, knowing much more about catholicism and islam than she does about transgenderism, about which she - like the rest of her class and, so far as I'm aware, the rest of the school - knows virtually nothing.

The only people pushing the idea that transgenderism is a pervasive, societal threat, especially to children, are people like Jordan Peterson (who makes enormous sums of money from talking up this threat), groups like the Iona Institute (who make political capital from talking up this threat) and movements like the far-right/alt-right neo-Nazis and white supremacists (ditto).

Perhaps you could back up your fear that you will explode with some evidence that your fear is grounded in some kind of reality beyond the reality sold - at high price - by Peterson, the Iona Institute, neo-Nazis and similar people and groups of people?

A webpage selling "small-batch handmade" plastic dicks via a gmail address suggests that, whatever perceived problems there might be with transgenderism, it's going to be a long time before it sweeps Western Civilization off its feet.

I did say in the OP that the issue is largely for the moment in the US and Australia - you can check out legislation such as California's FAIR Education Act 2017, or the Genderbread Person used in Queensland schools. But it seems to be mostly in internet spaces that children with gender dysphoria congregate and are informed. Referals of children with serious gender identity issues to the Tavistock Institute in the UK rose 10 fold between 2006 and 2016. Ireland went from 1 referal in 2011 to 35 referals in 2017. I have mentioned elsewhwere in this thread about other signifiers that lead me to believe this ideology is attempting to slip into regular life - eg childhood books with no gender designation, or drag kids lauded in mainstream publications. The President of the American College of Pediatricians has described the infiltration of transgender ideology into childhood as large scale child abuse. I am not going to provide exhaustive sources to back up my opinion - you can take it or leave it. You can disagree, that's fine. I may be wrong. That's also fine. Plastic dicks for children however is in my opinion the public sale of highly sexualised paraphanelia for what amounts to toddlers, and not as irrelevant as you seem to find it.

On the subject of far-right/alt-right neo-nazis, I am aware of their existence in passing and find them to be repulsive mouth breathers with low IQs. So no, I do not waste my valuable time on earth listening to them.
I have never knowingly read a single word issued by the Iona Institute, nor been inveigled into any of their opinions, as far as I know.
I listened in the very, very early days to Jordan Peterson, and found him moderately interesting at first. But I often disagreed with him, even then. I do not espouse his promotion of Jung for example. Or Nietzsche, for that matter. I have since become rather bored of his ubiquity, and while I do not feel neagtively towards him - he fulfils some sort of function- I find him generally too repetitive for my tastes,. I like to be stimulated by new ideas and JBP has reached his limit for me in that sense. Funnily enough I have never heard him speak to the issue of transgenderism in children. Or the use of childhood hormones and social transitioning. Perhaps he has. I have never heard it. So I could not have been propagandised by him on this matter.

Jack Taylor Fan, I will not be engaging with you. We have gone a few rounds in the past for which privilege I received unpleasant mail from you. You are entitled to your opinions and I have read them. That is all.

Padraig Mor · 08-07-2018 08:23AM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Bottom-line: It's their body; their choice.

At 5 years old? Their body, but someone else's choice is the reality presumably.

Annasopra · 08-07-2018 09:03AM

sabat wrote: »

Given the shocking suicide rate and high levels of regret following sex change operations it's obvious that many men are not making a true free choice but are being coerced by the medical and media industries into thinking certain mental health problems are something else entirely.
Placing a plastic phallus against a 5 year old girl's vagina and telling her she'll feel better with it there is an act of paedophilia.

A the high levels of suicide are caused mistly by external factors - Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system
B What high level of regret are you referring to?
C Being transgender is no longer considered a mental illness

wexie · 08-07-2018 09:13AM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

At 5 years old? Their body, but someone else's choice is the reality presumably.

I have a nearly 5 year old and he can't decide from one day to the next if he's more interested in dressing up in his sisters princess dresses and painting his nails or going outside to smash things in his tractor. On occasion he likes to do both at the same time (while wearing his minion wellies).

There's really nothing to be read into that beyond the fact that he's a fickle nearly five year old (or really just a nearly five year old cause they're probably all fickle)

So consequently we just let him at it and treat him like a nearly 5 year old child...

Have to say though I find it amazing to see that believing kids under 10 aren't equipped to make life changing decisions somehow makes me transphobic.

Learn something new about myself every day

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 09:22AM

wexie wrote: »

I have a nearly 5 year old and he can't decide from one day to the next if he's more interested in dressing up in his sisters princess dresses and painting his nails or going outside to smash things in his tractor. On occasion he likes to do both at the same time (while wearing his minion wellies).

There's really nothing to be read into that beyond the fact that he's a fickle nearly five year old (or really just a nearly five year old cause they're probably all fickle)

So consequently we just let him at it and treat him like a nearly 5 year old child...

Have to say though I find it amazing to see that believing kids under 10 aren't equipped to make life changing decisions somehow makes me transphobic.

Learn something new about myself every day

Sounds exactly like my youngest at that age. Mine also would never be caught dead without wearing his nylon swimming cap.

Thing is the plastic dicks are really just a gross and random visual representation of something more worrying, in my opinion. The administration of puberty blockers at ever younger ages results in invisible changes in the childs sexual development, including less developed genitals (something I saw recently referred to as girldick) and I find making children's mutable sexuality the subject of early intervention chemicals to be genuinely troubling.

08-07-2018 09:45AM

Interesting links, thats the first I have heard of Jazz Jennings.

It sounds like fairly strong and serious treatment that she has gone through.

She has had surgery which i presume is irreversible? She seems awfully young for this.

(Mainly I have only heard this discussed on twitter where it is all about beating "terfs")

benjamin d · 08-07-2018 10:01AM

OP I don't even have a horse in this race but you might want to head over to feedback and defend your honour from this little weasel. This is some shocking behaviour from JackTaylorFan and I'll be disgusted if Boards allows it.
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057889376/1/#post107461007

wexie · 08-07-2018 10:02AM

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

She has had surgery which i presume is irreversible? She seems awfully young for this.

Not old enough to get a tattoo....

Based on

This is partially based on the legal principle that a minor cannot enter into a legal contract or otherwise render informed consent for a procedure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_tattooing_in_the_United_States

Odd times indeed

dudara · 08-07-2018 10:04AM

benjamin d wrote: »

OP I don't even have a horse in this race but you might want to head over to feedback and defend your honour from this little weasel. This is some shocking behaviour from JackTaylorFan and I'll be disgusted if Boards allows it.
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057889376/1/#post107461007

The Feedback forum is not a place to continue an argument from another forum. Feedback is welcome but continued argument is not.
dudara

benjamin d · 08-07-2018 10:07AM

dudara wrote: »

The Feedback forum is not a place to continue an argument from another forum. Feedback is welcome but continued argument is not.
dudara

You're right, I apologise. I just felt some posters in this thread should be aware of the accusations being thrown around over there.

wexie · 08-07-2018 10:09AM

dudara wrote: »

The Feedback forum is not a place to continue an argument from another forum. Feedback is welcome but continued argument is not.
dudara

Apologies Dudara, I just posted there, not sure I can still remove it but please do if you feel it's unsuitable for the feedback forum.

08-07-2018 10:11AM

If this is a "shockingly transphobic thread", then I think Ireland is doing very well in its progressiveness.

dudara · 08-07-2018 10:11AM

wexie wrote: »

Apologies Dudara, I just posted there, not sure I can still remove it but please do if you feel it's unsuitable for the feedback forum.

AFAIC, the Feedback topic is if discussions of this type are transphobic. If posts stick to that theme, then we’re fine

wexie · 08-07-2018 10:15AM

dudara wrote: »

AFAIC, the Feedback topic is if discussions of this type are transphobic. If posts stick to that theme, then we’re fine

Well then I think we're good.

I'm afraid not everyone will agree though

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 10:19AM

benjamin d wrote: »

OP I don't even have a horse in this race but you might want to head over to feedback and defend your honour from this little weasel. This is some shocking behaviour from JackTaylorFan and I'll be disgusted if Boards allows it.
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057889376/1/#post107461007

Nah, honestly, i know they have skin in the game and thus can be naturally quite impassioned. I genuinely think adults can sort themselves as they see fit. I can be quite strident myself if pushed and it's naturally a divisive topic. Just feel that we must have the right to question what is happening, policy wise. I'm not ever going to roll over and accept that gender is divorced from chromosomes. Maybe that makes me a stuffy anachronism but they will just have to wait till I am dead before I stop contributing that pov to the discussion

King of Kings · 08-07-2018 10:41AM

i read elsewhere that a trans child is like a vegan cat..we all know who really is making the decisions

seems quite accurate

wexie · 08-07-2018 11:17AM

Malayalam wrote: »

Maybe that makes me a stuffy anachronism

I worry about that myself sometimes, but whenever I sit down and try to think it through I can't help but come to the conclusion that's not what it is.

I think it's much more a case of 'slow down, you're gonna hurt yourself'.

And I'm sure there'll be people who'll want to give me a load of abuse for that comparison....<meh>

I don't really have a lot of time or patience for the kind of person that rather than explain their convictions and try to persuade people they are right will take an attitude of 'if you're not 100% with me then you're against me'.

Beliefs that aren't open to being questioned and examined are dangerous things if you ask me. Of whatever variety they may be.

peasant · 08-07-2018 11:39AM

If someone were to feed their young boy steroids and anabolica because they wanted them to have the best start in life as a future body builder ...surely that would be considered child abuse

If someone were to stuff a young girl with oestrogen and growth hormones so that they could make a career as a plus size model...again, surely that would be considered to be abuse

But to treat them with hormones to delay/interrupt their puberty to facilitate a future gender change operation...that's supposed to be ok?

How?

Seriously...why does that even need to be discussed?
It just should not be an option.

Am I just naive or "old fashioned"?
Am I missing something?

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 11:40AM

I don't so much worry about it, as be aware of it. Individual stories of gender identity issues can be very compelling and generate great compassion in me....and I would hate to lose that response. Some of the kids though can seem like narcissistic arseholes, and their parents are even worse. I did an analysis of Pink Boy (a documentary about a transgender child) for a college project, and the child was adorable and seemed genuine. Still though, while I think there is no harm in the child expressing themselves in a gender ''creative'' way and being as feminine as he likes (likewise a tomboy girl), I would not like to see him put on Lupron or Histrelin which will fundamentally alter the glandular system in the developing body. Given the chance to go through puberty the child might learn how to love being in the body that naturally emerges - things so fundamentally change over that time, they might be simply gay and happy to behave in a manner characteristic of the opposite sex but retain fully functioning genitals and fertility... with proper support there is no need for them to hate their pre-adult body. I see LGB people saying that transgender ideology imposed via social policy in childhood is actually a form of rejection of homosexuality.

For me it is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It is too much, too fast, too ideological. And I am not a lone ''phobic'' voice on the matter. Professionals in the field are questioning it too.

Grayson · 08-07-2018 12:13PM

King of Kings wrote: »

i read elsewhere that a trans child is like a vegan cat..we all know who really is making the decisions

seems quite accurate

Not really. You're saying that that the child is not displaying any characteristics which would be called trans. That it's a completely random decision taken by a parent.

Now I do believe that any decision involving children should not be taken lightly. And I'd even agree that parents wouldn't be the ones who make the decisions. It should be medical professionals and that it shouldn't be a decision that should be taken lightly by them either. Any sort of treatment of a child should be a method of last resort if they are 100% certain that it is the only course of action and it's 100% necessary at that point. It may be that it needs to be decided by a panel of doctors who are top of their fields.

I say all that because I'm not qualified to make that decision. Neither is anyone here. The vast majority of people here have no experience with trans people or gender dysmorphia. Even those that do have experience have a very limited experience, especially on the medical side.

Anyone who says that it's never, ever a decision that should be taken is not basing that on years of extensive medical experience. It is the definition of an ill informed decision.

_Kaiser_ · 08-07-2018 12:16PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I see the usuals are out on force in this one...

Anyways...

I'll respond once, directly to the OP, and that will be it for this trash heap...

....

And here we get to the crux of OP's argument (if you can call this ****e that): OP, is obsessed with what children have in their pants - case and point: the link.

If trans boys want to have a prosthetic penis for the aesthetics of it all- what business is of yours? Literally, you are the one making it sexual. Think of it as contour wear for men. I mean, honestly how obsessed do you have to be with this topic to go seeking that out.

You may have a point about there being a pedophillic tone here, though - but that's probably just because you are projecting.

.....

Edit: a special shout out to all the mods on here, firmly with your hands down your pants as blatant transphobia ensues -it's like you get off on it too or something

There is so much wrong with this post, I really don't know where to begin. The victim-hood, the nonsense about "privilege", the name-calling and the particularly vile accusations at the end, with a dig at the moderation thrown in for good measure. Honestly, the use of the term "trash heap" in this post is probably the most ironic thing of all given what follows.

Now to be fair, having read the Feedback thread linked I see that the poster is trans themselves and so the above makes a bit more sense in that they obviously feel personally attacked by the views and opinions on this thread.. and that's fair enough (albeit unfortunate that they feel that way) - except that as with most of these "controversial" topics, it's far more important to read the actual content and intent of the posts rather than just jumping to feeling offended because those posts don't just echo your own position.

In a country which has made huge societal progress in even the past 10 years about how we view people of different sexualities beyond the traditional male/female hetero "default", I think it's extremely unfair to level some of the accusations that were made in the above post.
No one (in my view anyway) has expressed any hatred or fear of transgenderism, but rather a legitimate concern about performing medical procedures and the use of prosthetics on what are little more than toddlers.

As the parent of a 6 year old myself, it's blatantly obvious to me that these decisions are being made by adults in-line with their own worldview and perception of what the(ir) child's behaviour "means", but that is a fundamental violation of a parent's duty to protect their child IMO.

By all means, provide a supportive, judgement-free safe environment for them to "be themselves" (which again should be what EVERY parent strives for), but they're simply too young at that age to be reading anything more into it than simple curiosity or play.
Now if they continue to show a bias towards behaviour more associated with the opposite sex as they enter their teens, then maybe it's time to start thinking about other supports... but that should absolutely not happen until the child themselves can express a desire or questions for it.

In my view, THAT is how you support a child who may or may not be trans... not "projecting" (to borrow from the poster above) your own adult biases and agendas onto a toddler who may just like dressing up like mammy occasionally because she's probably the most important person in his life.

As a side note, I manage a team of people and one of them (based in the US) has actually begun the transition from male to female in the past year. They have had some work done on their voice and changed their physical appearance/clothing and chosen a new name, and I'm glad to say that there has been absolutely no issues during this time and indeed everyone locally has been very supportive, but equally the individual themselves realises that it is a change and adjustment for people too, and has been very understanding of the occasional "name-slip" etc.

For me personally it makes absolutely no difference to how I perceive them as a employee. They're still the same good, proactive dedicated member of the team they've always been and in my view that's how it SHOULD be... someone's sexuality shouldn't be a factor in the workplace. It SHOULD be a "non-issue".

The same thing applies here.... as adults with the capability of making informed choices and decisions about their lives, I don't think anyone here has a problem with how someone else chooses to live theirs.

But children are a different matter, and until they reach a stage where they too can make those informed decisions, no-one else should be making such life-changing decisions for them.. not even their parents.

peasant · 08-07-2018 12:29PM

Grayson wrote: »

Anyone who says that it's never, ever a decision that should be taken is not basing that on years of extensive medical experience. It is the definition of an ill informed decision.

Wait until the first person who got their puberty medically interfered with only to find out afterwards that their chosen gender is what it was at birth and is now severely disfigured/disturbed, sues the living daylights out of the medical profession and the state for facilitating this...then let's have this discussion again.

Malayalam · 08-07-2018 12:32PM

Well put Kaiser. I think your attitude reflects the approach of most reasonably minded people. We meet people as individuals and we all have our struggles.

The encroachment of ideology is at the foundations of this ...well...I am going to call it 'hysteria' towards gender affirmation in childhood. Ideas have to be implanted first before they can take off in the physical world. And ideas ARE being implanted. As an example here is a production from Planned Parenthood Ottawa, dated May 2017, as far as I can make out

This is just anti-science post-modern malarkey. There is no ''truth'', there is just your feelings about things. :rolleyes: It does not make for more broad minded children, it just makes for idiocy.
Edit - elementary school students are 6-13 years old

Grayson · 08-07-2018 12:50PM

peasant wrote: »

Wait until the first person who got their puberty medically interfered with only to find out afterwards that their chosen gender is what it was at birth and is now severely disfigured/disturbed, sues the living daylights out of the medical profession and the state for facilitating this...then let's have this discussion again.

I bet a panel of medical experts had never ever considered that. This is the kind of knowledge that the entire medical profession is missing and it's the reason why you're far better at making these decisions than experts.

That was of course sarcasm. I'm pointing that out because it needs to be pointed out. You seem to actually think that doctors don't consider that they might make a bad decision and err on the side of caution and that a doctor had never ever considered being sued for malpractice.

wexie · 08-07-2018 12:57PM

Grayson wrote: »

That was of course sarcasm. I'm pointing that out because it needs to be pointed out. You seem to actually think that doctors don't consider that they might make a bad decision and err on the side of caution and that a doctor had never ever considered being sued for malpractice.

Personally I would like to think that is the case, but apparently there seems to be a movement out there with the idea that all that is needed to start transitioning is the consent of the patient.

Something to do with the fact that examining the belief of the patient being trans would somehow invalidate them and be considered transphobic in and of itself.

Annasopra · 08-07-2018 01:00PM

wexie wrote: »

Personally I would like to think that is the case, but apparently there seems to be a movement out there with the idea that all that is needed to start transitioning is the consent of the patient.

Something to do with the fact that examining the belief of the patient being trans would somehow invalidate them and be considered transphobic in and of itself.

No

You seem to misunderstand. Legal transition is self declared here in Ireland. Medical transition would require much more than self declared consent.

Ulysses Gaze · 08-07-2018 01:02PM

Malayalam wrote: »

Well put Kaiser. I think your attitude reflects the approach of most reasonably minded people. We meet people as individuals and we all have our struggles.

The encroachment of ideology is at the foundations of this ...well...I am going to call it 'hysteria' towards gender affirmation in childhood. Ideas have to be implanted first before they can take off in the physical world. And ideas ARE being implanted. As an example here is a production from Planned Parenthood Ottawa, dated May 2017, as far as I can make out

This is just anti-science post-modern malarkey. There is no ''truth'', there is just your feelings about things. :rolleyes: It does not make for more broad minded children, it just makes for idiocy.
Edit - elementary school students are 6-13 years old

This no different to Flat-Earthers.

Madness.

Peak Trans

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