Stopping smoothly

BarraOG · 14-06-2018 08:37AM #1

Hi,

I’m having trouble stopping at stop signs in a smooth and consistent manner.

So let’s say I’m approaching in fourth and travelling at 50km/hr, I release the acc at the junction sign and check mirrors and then signal. I then position and start breaking. This part is fine. I then change to second, say 15m from the stop(but I’m not sure when I should be doing this exactly), and get my foot off the clutch. I then clutch again around 5 meters from the line. I’m not sure if I’m breaking all the time once changing gear to second to the actual stop, should I be?

The problem I have is that I sometimes stop too abruptly or in some cases I have to acc slightly after having changed to second as I feel i am lacking momentum to bring me to the stop line. Is it wrong to have to accelerate like this? Even if there is an incline?

What parameters should I be following in order to stop more smoothly? I’m driving a vw passat estate 2006.

Thanks for your help!
Barry

Henry Ford III · 14-06-2018 09:24AM

Sounds like you are applying too much braking force too early. Keep practicing. You'll get there eventually.

Boardnashea · 14-06-2018 09:26AM

Practice

n1ck · 14-06-2018 09:31AM

I find when I come up to a junction, just prior to coming to a complete stop, I release the brake and then re-apply pressure slowly. It makes for a much smoother stop.

What I also tend to do is use much of my clutch control to lower speed, it will slow you down considerably when used in conjunction with braking.

TheShow · 14-06-2018 09:32AM

I don't understand why people change down the gears when coming to a stop. Changing the gears doesn't slow the car down.

If you're preparing to stop,. take foot off the accelerator. touch breaks if you need to. If you need to change gear down (low revs) then do so,. I generally don't go to first until I'm at a complete stop. Just use the break gently.
Roll up to a stop rather than driving at it and stopping sharply.

As you're learning you will tend to overthink all these issues, especially if you have a test coming up. But practice makes perfect, soon you will do it without even realising it.

djan · 14-06-2018 09:36AM

TheShow wrote: »

I don't understand why people change down the gears when coming to a stop. Changing the gears doesn't slow the car down.

If you're preparing to stop,. take foot off the accelerator. touch breaks if you need to. If you need to change gear down (low revs) then do so,. I generally don't go to first until I'm at a complete stop. Just use the break gently.
Roll up to a stop rather than driving at it and stopping sharply.

As you're learning you will tend to overthink all these issues, especially if you have a test coming up. But practice makes perfect, soon you will do it without even realising it.

By changing gears you are able to brake using the gearing/engine. Very important skill to have especially in icy conditions where you shouldn't brake using the brakes. When coming up to red traffic lights I would hardly ever use the brake actually. Less wear on the pads too!

Akrasia · 14-06-2018 09:37AM

The clutch is not a binary mechanism, ie, it's not either on or off. In order to smoothly brake and accelerate there will be a brief time when the clutch is partially engaged. This is called 'slipping' but it's a normal part of driving. And clutches are designed to allow this for short periods of time (don't spend too long with your clutch partially engaged on a hill for example)

When you're transitioning from a high gear to a lower one, you can slowly let off the clutch while the engine speed syncs up with the drive train. your revs will go up but the car shouldn't shudder or jerk forward or jerk to a stop.
It's practice and getting the feel for your car.

People can burn out their clutch in no time by letting it slip for way too long while taking off from 1st into 2nd or from 2nd into 3rd. Your revs should never really go up while changing up a gear (unless you're a rally car driver who intentionally does this to avoid loss of power), but while changing down gears and slowing to a stop, it's ok to allow the clutch to slip a little and use engine braking to slow down (still use the brakes as well obviously). It actually saves fuel and reduces wear on your brake pads and tyres.

n1ck · 14-06-2018 09:38AM

TheShow wrote: »

I don't understand why people change down the gears when coming to a stop. Changing the gears doesn't slow the car down.

You need to be prepared to accelerate again. If you're in 4th and going 15km/h, you're going to have to shift down in order to accelerate promptly. People just get lazy when they've been driving for so long and don't shift down or shift into neutral, which is bad practise, in my opinion at least.

RebelButtMunch · 14-06-2018 09:39AM

Akrasia wrote: »

The clutch is not a binary mechanism, ie, it's not either on or off. In order to smoothly brake and accelerate there will be a brief time when the clutch is partially engaged. This is called 'slipping' but it's a normal part of driving. And clutches are designed to allow this for short periods of time (don't spend too long with your clutch partially engaged on a hill for example)

When you're transitioning from a high gear to a lower one, you can slowly let off the clutch while the engine speed syncs up with the drive train. your revs will go up but the car shouldn't shudder or jerk forward or jerk to a stop.
It's practice and getting the feel for your car.

People can burn out their clutch in no time by letting it slip for way too long while taking off from 1st into 2nd or from 2nd into 3rd. Your revs should never really go up while changing up a gear (unless you're a rally car driver who intentionally does this to avoid loss of power), but while changing down gears and slowing to a stop, it's ok to allow the clutch to slip a little and use engine braking to slow down (still use the brakes as well obviously). It actually saves fuel and reduces wear on your brake pads and tyres.

It also can mean that the car is in a good gear to go if the car didn't come to a stop

Akrasia · 14-06-2018 09:44AM

TheShow wrote: »

I don't understand why people change down the gears when coming to a stop. Changing the gears doesn't slow the car down.

If you're preparing to stop,. take foot off the accelerator. touch breaks if you need to. If you need to change gear down (low revs) then do so,. I generally don't go to first until I'm at a complete stop. Just use the break gently.
Roll up to a stop rather than driving at it and stopping sharply.

As you're learning you will tend to overthink all these issues, especially if you have a test coming up. But practice makes perfect, soon you will do it without even realising it.

Changing down gears does slow the car down. If simply lifting the accelerator is enough for you to slow down enough to stop drastically, then you're probably driving around in way too high of a gear most of the time. (note, I'm talking about stopping at a junction from 50kph, not nudging forward in a traffic jam)

If you're not going down gears until you're at a complete stop, then you're probably using your clutch to stop the engine from cutting out. this is called coasting and doing this will fail your driving test. If you're 'rolling to a stop' you should have your foot on the brake the entire time your foot is on the clutch.

When driving your engine should be engaged all the time except when changing gear or stopped. The clutch is for moving off from a start and changing gear, not rolling to a stop.

TheShow · 14-06-2018 09:55AM

Akrasia wrote: »

Changing down gears does slow the car down. If simply lifting the accelerator is enough for you to slow down enough to stop drastically, then you're probably driving around in way too high of a gear most of the time. (note, I'm talking about stopping at a junction from 50kph, not nudging forward in a traffic jam)

If you're not going down gears until you're at a complete stop, then you're probably using your clutch to stop the engine from cutting out. this is called coasting and doing this will fail your driving test. If you're 'rolling to a stop' you should have your foot on the brake the entire time your foot is on the clutch.

When driving your engine should be engaged all the time except when changing gear or stopped. The clutch is for moving off from a start and changing gear, not rolling to a stop.

I don't coast, car in gear, foot off accelerator. touching breaks as I require to control the car and changing the gear if its is required by the sound of the engine, level of revs etc, not just for the sake of it.
My point was that people focus too much on changing down through the gears back to first when stopping, when it is not necessary.

Henry Ford III · 14-06-2018 10:31AM

Amazing the number of people who spell breaks instead of brakes.

I realise this isn't a spelling forum btw

djan · 14-06-2018 10:32AM

TheShow wrote: »

I don't coast, car in gear, foot off accelerator. touching breaks as I require to control the car and changing the gear if its is required by the sound of the engine, level of revs etc, not just for the sake of it.
My point was that people focus too much on changing down through the gears back to first when stopping, when it is not necessary.

By changing gears, you save having to use the pads, keep front wheels cleaner and save fuel. You have to change anyway as most cars, especially petrols will stall unless you are coasting.

I do agree no need to change gears for the sake of it but most people don't change gears enough!

Alanstrainor · 14-06-2018 10:50AM

djan wrote: »

By changing gears you are able to brake using the gearing/engine. Very important skill to have especially in icy conditions where you shouldn't brake using the brakes. When coming up to red traffic lights I would hardly ever use the brake actually. Less wear on the pads too!

djan wrote: »

By changing gears, you save having to use the pads, keep front wheels cleaner and save fuel. You have to change anyway as most cars, especially petrols will stall unless you are coasting.

Gears to go, brakes to slow. In the situation that the OP describes, approaching a stop sign, they should begin braking in 4th gear and simply clutch in before stopping. No gear changes required in this instance. And most instructors would have students practice this. The idea of saving your pads is ludicrous. Pads are very cheap, clutches are not. Any car in the last 25 years should be able to stop without any need for engine braking in normal circumstances. All that being said being able to come down through the gears is still a required skill, approaching turns left or right would require changing to 2nd before turning etc. It's just not required in the OP's scenario.

You mention stalling/coasting. It is not a problem to clutch in before the engine labours when stopping in 4th. The reality is that pressing the clutch will still happen at a low speed, even in 4th gear (for most cars).

So in answer to your question OP. It sounds to me that you are braking too soon, you should be able to stop in one smooth motion. There should be no need to accelerate before the stop sign as you describe. My process would be:

1. Cruising in 4th at 50km/h. Stop sign ahead.
2. Remove foot from accelerator and begin to gently brake.
3. Slow to in and around 10km/h or so, or listen/feel for the engine and clutch in before any sign of it stalling/struggling.
4. Stop.

It's very hard to give you distances to use, or specifics about when exactly to clutch. But you shouldn't need them. This is the kind of question that will become obvious with more practice.

djan · 14-06-2018 11:03AM

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Gears to go, brakes to slow. In the situation that the OP describes, approaching a stop sign, they should begin braking in 4th gear and simply clutch in before stopping. No gear changes required in this instance. And most instructors would have students practice this. The idea of saving your pads is ludicrous. Pads are very cheap, clutches are not. Any car in the last 25 years should be able to stop without any need for engine braking in normal circumstances. All that being said being able to come down through the gears is still a required skill, approaching turns left or right would require changing to 2nd before turning etc. It's just not required in the OP's scenario.

You mention stalling/coasting. It is not a problem to clutch in before the engine labours when stopping in 4th. The reality is that pressing the clutch will still happen at a low speed, even in 4th gear (for most cars).

Gears are for both, if you can brake using the engine and gears, what reason is there to use brakes? I'm not saying one would make some substantial savings on pads etc. merely its a positive side benefit. I think we are getting off topic here a bit.

End of the day, it doesn't really matter all that much if you change the gears down and break with engine or stay in 3rd and clutch earlier before stopping so you don't stall. What does make a difference in stopping smoothly is gradually increasing braking and then as you are about to stop let go of the break and allow the car to stop by natural friction rather than the actual brakes. Will take some practice but also I am not sure of the "driving test legality" of this if someone could clarify.

mickdw · 14-06-2018 11:27AM

It's woeful driving to be coming to a stop in 4th gear. You do not have full control of the car in such a scenario - by full control I mean by being in 4th at a tiny speed you have rendered the accelerator pedal useless and therefore limited in what you can make the car do. You are rolling up to a traffic light in 4th and it goes green... what then?

Alanstrainor · 14-06-2018 12:05PM

djan wrote: »

Gears are for both, if you can brake using the engine and gears, what reason is there to use brakes? I'm not saying one would make some substantial savings on pads etc. merely its a positive side benefit. I think we are getting off topic here a bit.

End of the day, it doesn't really matter all that much if you change the gears down and break with engine or stay in 3rd and clutch earlier before stopping so you don't stall. What does make a difference in stopping smoothly is gradually increasing braking and then as you are about to stop let go of the break and allow the car to stop by natural friction rather than the actual brakes. Will take some practice but also I am not sure of the "driving test legality" of this if someone could clarify.

All your advice would be against driving practice and I would think it would incur faults in a test. You are marked on braking, and not using the brakes to stop would incur faults. Your statement about using the engine to brake instead of the brakes is baffling. Use the brake pedal, let drivers behind you know that you are slowing by showing your brake lights.

Alanstrainor · 14-06-2018 12:07PM

mickdw wrote: »

It's woeful driving to be coming to a stop in 4th gear. You do not have full control of the car in such a scenario - by full control I mean by being in 4th at a tiny speed you have rendered the accelerator pedal useless and therefore limited in what you can make the car do. You are rolling up to a traffic light in 4th and it goes green... what then?

Rolling up to a traffic light is different to rolling up to a stop sign. There absolutely is still reason to come down through the gears, approaching a yield sign, or as you say approaching a traffic signal that may turn green. But coming to a complete stop in 4th gear is perfectly acceptable in a test scenario, and I would go further and say that it is preferred.

mickdw · 14-06-2018 01:46PM

In my opinion, coming to a stop in 4th gear is never right. It encourages lazy driving and puts the driver in a situation of reduced control.
You need to be in the right gear at all times. If you don't have Engine Power available, certain emergency moves are not available to you. Granted this type of stuff is not going to effect someone every day of the week but on top of that, stopping in fourth will surely create an increased amount of coasting before coming to a stop.

Alanstrainor · 14-06-2018 02:12PM

mickdw wrote: »

In my opinion, coming to a stop in 4th gear is never right. It encourages lazy driving and puts the driver in a situation of reduced control.
You need to be in the right gear at all times. If you don't have Engine Power available, certain emergency moves are not available to you. Granted this type of stuff is not going to effect someone every day of the week but on top of that, stopping in fourth will surely create an increased amount of coasting before coming to a stop.

I can see where you're coming from. But for the test either method is acceptable when coming to a complete stop. The reasoning behind stopping in 4th at a stop sign would be to just keep it simple. Engine braking is no longer required as the cars brakes are more than capable (even under prolonged braking).

As for coasting, clutching in before a stop and before the engine struggles or shows any sign of stalling is perfectly fine. Try it, you'd be surprised how slowing you are going in most cars when you do clutch in. In mind it's maybe a couple of seconds before stopping. There is no 'coasting' heading on the marking sheet, simply clutch control. Generally coasting is a problem for people who clutch in when turning corners, or rest their foot on the clutch during normal driving.

BarraOG · 16-06-2018 07:54AM

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Gears to go, brakes to slow. In the situation that the OP describes, approaching a stop sign, they should begin braking in 4th gear and simply clutch in before stopping. No gear changes required in this instance. And most instructors would have students practice this. The idea of saving your pads is ludicrous. Pads are very cheap, clutches are not. Any car in the last 25 years should be able to stop without any need for engine braking in normal circumstances. All that being said being able to come down through the gears is still a required skill, approaching turns left or right would require changing to 2nd before turning etc. It's just not required in the OP's scenario.

You mention stalling/coasting. It is not a problem to clutch in before the engine labours when stopping in 4th. The reality is that pressing the clutch will still happen at a low speed, even in 4th gear (for most cars).

So in answer to your question OP. It sounds to me that you are braking too soon, you should be able to stop in one smooth motion. There should be no need to accelerate before the stop sign as you describe. My process would be:

1. Cruising in 4th at 50km/h. Stop sign ahead.
2. Remove foot from accelerator and begin to gently brake.
3. Slow to in and around 10km/h or so, or listen/feel for the engine and clutch in before any sign of it stalling/struggling.
4. Stop.

It's very hard to give you distances to use, or specifics about when exactly to clutch. But you shouldn't need them. This is the kind of question that will become obvious with more practice.

Was doing this before but my EDT instructor told me to stop always in 2nd or 3rd. I dont really feel im in a position to question him irrespective of what other edts teach.

J_R · 17-06-2018 05:10AM

Hi,

Its amazes me to read that there are still some people who believe that you should use the engine to slow the car. (And instructors who teach it)

I am old enough to have driven cars when it really was necessary to use the engine to slow and stop the car, and have experienced at first hand why this was necessary

Cars, way back then were heavy in comparison to cars today. No fancy lightweight alloy metals just honest sheet steel and proper wood for interior, no cheap flimsy plastic. And everything was welded and/or bolted together. This extra weight meant extra power would be needed to slow/stop the car. But unfortunately this definitely was not the case. The brakes back then were very poor with several major faults.

They were "drum" brakes which were far less efficient that todays discs.

They got hot very quickly as being enclosed they did not dissipate the heat, they easily got hot and stayed hot. When hot they were useless and simply failed to exert any stopping power whatsoever. Technical called "brake fade". So good drivers "saved" the brakes whenever possible. When stopping they went down through the gears. Saved the brakes for emergency stops.

And other faults with drums.

Took much longer to dry them out if they got wet

Also modern brakes are self adjusting and almost maintenance free. Way back then sometimes you could hit the brakes and the brake pedal would hit the floor, so you would have to frantically "pump" them to build up the pressure.

Modern cars, when you know that you are going to stop, leave the car in whatever gear it is in, simply get off the gas, cover the brake then start braking when necessary, depress the clutch when you know the brakes are working, or depress well before the car would stall. It is very important that you do not stall as you could then lose power assist to the steering and the braking system.

Argument that you should till go down through the gears simply do not make any sense whatsoever.

Main one. That you can not accelerate as you are in too high a gear. But accelerate to where - you are approaching a stop sign or red light or perhaps a tail back of traffic. If you must drive through regardless of the consequences it is a simple matter of quickly shifting down to an appropriate gear and then accelerate blindly through the stop sign or red light or whatever.

Stopping in snow or poor conditions brakes work on all four wheels, whereas the engine will only work on two. (Unless you got four wheel drive)

Brakes are actually designed to stop the car. Engines designed to make it go.

J_R · 17-06-2018 08:59AM

BarraOG wrote: »

Hi,

I’m having trouble stopping at stop signs in a smooth and consistent manner.

So let’s say I’m approaching in fourth and travelling at 50km/hr, I release the acc at the junction sign and check mirrors and then signal. I then position and start breaking. This part is fine. I then change to second, say 15m from the stop(but I’m not sure when I should be doing this exactly), and get my foot off the clutch. I then clutch again around 5 meters from the line. I’m not sure if I’m breaking all the time once changing gear to second to the actual stop, should I be?

The problem I have is that I sometimes stop too abruptly or in some cases I have to acc slightly after having changed to second as I feel i am lacking momentum to bring me to the stop line. Is it wrong to have to accelerate like this? Even if there is an incline?

What parameters should I be following in order to stop more smoothly? I’m driving a vw passat estate 2006.

Thanks for your help!
Barry

Hi,

there is no need to go into 2nd. simply stay in whatever gear you happen to be in, check your mirrors, brake, depress clutch before the car would labour.

Aim to stop just short of your stopping target, say half/quarter car length back, ease off the brake completely at that point and the car should then roll to a smooth halt.

You should be decreasing the brake pressure as you slow, not braking harder, but easing off. To slow smoothly, progressively, you should brake regressively.

MascotDec85 · 17-06-2018 11:46AM

When driving a diesel car it’s much better to go down through the gears when braking gradually or you’ll make the engine labour. Of course, if you have to slow quickly in a diesel you can still stop in whichever gear you’re in but in a normal slowing to a stop scenario gearing down is almost essential. A diesel car, in most circumstances, is very different to a petrol one when slowing.

J_R · 17-06-2018 02:53PM

MascotDec85 wrote: »

When driving a diesel car it’s much better to go down through the gears when braking gradually or you’ll make the engine labour. Of course, if you have to slow quickly in a diesel you can still stop in whichever gear you’re in but in a normal slowing to a stop scenario gearing down is almost essential. A diesel car, in most circumstances, is very different to a petrol one when slowing.

Hi,
But type of engine is immaterial. I used Golf diesels and I taught my pupils to brake, put in the clutch before the car would labour. If my pupils followed instructions and did not change down, they did not get marked in the test. Irrespective what gear they stopped in.

However in my last year as an instructor I had a petrol BWW, exactly same method, don't change down, brake then clutch.

When braking to a stop, the dominant controlling factor are the brakes. And brakes are designed to safely stop a car. (Provided of course tyres, shocks etc OK)

If stopping in a straight line, the driver has full control of the car. If fitted with ABS he can even throw in the odd swerve whilst still maintain full control, and all this with the clutch depressed.

Try it, an experienced driver should "Feel" if they have full control or not.

Charles Babbage · 17-06-2018 03:00PM

J_R wrote: »

However in my last year as an instructor I had a petrol BWW, exactly same method, don't change down, brake then clutch.

When braking to a stop, the dominant controlling factor are the brakes. And brakes are designed to safely stop a car. (Provided of course tyres, shocks etc OK)

If stopping in a straight line, the driver has full control of the car. If fitted with ABS he can even throw in the odd swerve whilst still maintain full control, and all this with the clutch depressed.

Try it, an experienced driver should "Feel" if they have full control or not.

If he is not in the correct gear, he only has control to stop, not to accelerate. Now the latter might not be needed in most situations.

J_R · 17-06-2018 03:06PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

If he is not in the correct gear, he only has control to stop, not to accelerate. Now the latter might not be needed in most situations.

Hi,

My post #22

Argument that you should till go down through the gears simply do not make any sense whatsoever.

Main one. That you can not accelerate as you are in too high a gear. But accelerate to where - you are approaching a stop sign or red light or perhaps a tail back of traffic. If you must drive through regardless of the consequences it is a simple matter of quickly shifting down to an appropriate gear and then accelerate blindly through the stop sign or red light or whatever.

SCOOP 64 · 17-06-2018 03:12PM

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Amazing the number of people who spell breaks instead of brakes.

I realise this isn't a spelling forum btw

Give us a brake break!

chicorytip · 17-06-2018 03:49PM

BarraOG wrote:

So letâ€™s say Iâ€™m approaching in fourth and travelling at 50km/hr, I release the acc at the junction sign and check mirrors and then signal. I then position and start breaking. This part is fine. I then change to second, say 15m from the stop(but Iâ€™m not sure when I should be doing this exactly), and get my foot off the clutch. I then clutch again around 5 meters from the line. Iâ€™m not sure if Iâ€™m breaking all the time once changing gear to second to the actual stop, should I be?

Is it a requirement of the driving test that you change down through the gears when coming to a halt?? If so, it seems odd practice and something most would never do in normal, everyday driving. Stay in whatever gear you are already in when stopping.

SCOOP 64 · 17-06-2018 03:55PM

chicorytip wrote: »

Is it a requirement of the driving test that you change down through the gears when coming to a halt?? If so, it seems odd practice and something most would never do in normal, everyday driving. Stay in whatever gear you are already in when stopping.

I have always done this and thought this was the norm.

chicorytip · 17-06-2018 04:02PM

SCOOP 64 wrote:

I have always done this and thought this was the norm.

Really? Thinking back to when I was a learner I don't ever recall being instructed to do so. That's why I posed the question as to whether or not it's compulsory in a test situation nowadays.

Stopping smoothly

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