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E bike insurance possibly on the way

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    #2
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    The thing that jumps out at me there is the claim that the directive aims to get the highest amount of compensation for all victims.

    Surely it should be the correct amount. Medical fees, lost warnings etc. How very American otherwise


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    #3
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Id imagine that we wouldn't be obliged to implement it but even if so, id expect that premiums would be very low based on the risk profile.

    Still bizarre for pedalassists that can't go more than 25kmh when most cyclists go faster.


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    #4
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    This appeared on pink-bike the other day; in fairness that article read a bit like a Daily Fail cut-and-paste number. The important thing to remember is that it is a proposal being put forth by the Commission, so not even in a legislative format ready to go before an EU parliamentary vote (which it likely wont pass, because it's by and large unenforceable). Further mention is that each country and chose to opt in to this or not as they so choose. The whole thing smells of insurance company lobbying and trying to create new revenue streams for themselves.

    TL;DR? Get in contact with your MEP to voice your displeasure. Beyond that, nothing to get worked up over quite just yet.


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    #5
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,888 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Lemming wrote: »
    This appeared on pink-bike the other day; in fairness that article read a bit like a Daily Fail cut-and-paste number. The important thing to remember is that it is a proposal being put forth by the Commission, so not even in a legislative format ready to go before an EU parliamentary vote (which it likely wont pass, because it's by and large unenforceable). Further mention is that each country and chose to opt in to this or not as they so choose. The whole thing smells of insurance company lobbying and trying to create new revenue streams for themselves.

    TL;DR? Get in contact with your MEP to voice your displeasure. Beyond that, nothing to get worked up over quite just yet.

    They are forcing through insurance for vehicles which never leave private property so don't be surprised when they force through insurance for cyclists, and then they will go after pedestrians.


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    #6
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Del2005 wrote: »
    They are forcing through insurance for vehicles which never leave private property so don't be surprised when they force through insurance for cyclists, and then they will go after pedestrians.

    Who is 'they'? If it is the commission, the commission cannot force anything anywhere. The EP is the ultimate arbiter of any legislative measures that the commission tries to pass off on.


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    #7
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,124 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    As a pedalling cyclist, I would not like to be hit by an electric bike. They are heavy and will do more damage than an ordinary cyclist on cyclist/pedestrian incident (rare as they are). Some of the pilots of these have no clue no respect for other cyclists they share space with. Maniac’s on a speed trip for no effort!


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    #8
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,511 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    They are heavy and will do more damage than an ordinary cyclist on cyclist/pedestrian

    By that logic overweight or 100Kg+ guys on bikes should have to take out insurance as well! :D

    Anyways, Ebike insurance is ridiculous, better to have 1000 people on bikes than in cars, so anything to discourage even E-assisted bikes shouldn't see the light of day...! I think Ebikes are great commuting bikes.


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    #9
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,286 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    As a pedalling cyclist, I would not like to be hit by an electric bike. They are heavy and will do more damage than an ordinary cyclist on cyclist/pedestrian incident (rare as they are). Some of the pilots of these have no clue no respect for other cyclists they share space with. Maniac’s on a speed trip for no effort!
    I’m 100kg so probably heavier than a rider on a electric bike. Should I have Insurance.
    Insurance is mandatory for cars because of the high costs resulted to car incidents.

    Are the costs associated with ebikes accidents any different than bikes and are the costs beyond the means of the cyclists


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    #10
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,453 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    As a pedalling cyclist, I would not like to be hit by an electric bike. They are heavy and will do more damage than an ordinary cyclist on cyclist/pedestrian incident (rare as they are). Some of the pilots of these have no clue no respect for other cyclists they share space with. Maniac’s on a speed trip for no effort!
    As a pedestrian, I would not like to be hit by a bike. They are heavy and will do more damage than an ordinary pedestrian on pedestrian incident (rare as they are). Some of the pilots of these have no clue no respect for other road users they share space with. Maniac’s on a speed trip for no effort!


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    #11
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,124 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    As a pedestrian, I would not like to be hit by a bike. They are heavy and will do more damage than an ordinary pedestrian on pedestrian incident (rare as they are). Some of the pilots of these have no clue no respect for other road users they share space with. Maniac’s on a speed trip for no effort!

    Ha ha...anrent you really bright to pen that. Kudos to you and you!

    Bikes and pedestrian incidents are rare as they don’t share the same spaces (normally). E-bikes v ordinary bikes are not the same and they are sharing the same space.

    I am not anti e-bike, it actually great that people have a choice between car and e-bike. But there is no comparison to the speeds these move at v regular bikes, including those with 100kgs on board. I meet a guy on an ‘ebike’ every day. It’s homemade and he is never pedalling and is moving at more than 25kmph. It’s not the same and should not be treated the same.


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    #12
    Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭Brian


    I occasionally see e-bike users filtering through traffic at higher speeds than I would feel comfortable at on my bike, in terms of retaining control and anticipating danger.

    For me to get to a steady 25 km/hr on a commute takes a certain amount of invested training and experience, which I feel makes me overall more aware as a cyclist. Someone starting out on an e-bike might not have that time in the saddle but can still travel at high speed.

    Am I just being a bike snob? I do think e-bikes are great generally and would encourage them over most other forms of transport.


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    #13
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,453 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    Ha ha...anrent you really bright to pen that. Kudos to you and you!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcGQpjCztgA


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    #14
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    I meet a guy on an ‘ebike’ every day. It’s homemade and he is never pedalling and is moving at more than 25kmph. It’s not the same and should not be treated the same.

    What you've just described is not an e-bike; it's a motorised BSO.

    Edit: meh.


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    #15
    The Ging and I
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭The Ging and I


    The positive side of e-bikes. I have met many elderly people who would not cycle use them just to go out and enjoy the freedom.
    The negative is when some fat git passes you just as you crest Ventoux !


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    #16
    dom_1000
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭dom_1000


    I have a friend with a chipped ebike. It can go up to 45kmh. Crosses the city on it.
    Little dangerous I reckon.


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    #17
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,511 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    dom_1000 wrote: »
    I have a friend with a chipped ebike. It can go up to 45kmh. Crosses the city on it.

    Little dangerous I reckon.

    No more dangerous than a moped?


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    #18
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,286 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Less dangerous as it’d have very little inertia. And the engine cuts out when the user stops pedalling


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    #19
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    Irish MEP Contact details for those who want to have their say:

    lynn.boylan@europarl.europa.eu
    matt.carthy@europarl.europa.eu
    nessa.childers@europarl.europa.eu
    deirdre.clune@europarl.europa.eu
    briancrowleymep@eircom.net
    lukeming.flanagan@europarl.europa.eu
    marian.harkin@europarl.europa.eu
    brian.hayes@europarl.europa.eu
    sean.kelly@europarl.europa.eu
    mairead.mcguinness@europarl.europa.eu
    liadh.niriada@europarl.europa.eu

    (Or you can register on the EU website to provide direct feedback)


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    #20
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    Fair play to Brian Hayes, but lumping Segways and Electric Scooters into the same category is a bit stupid
    Sorry for the layout - it was a copy and paste job..



    Press Statement from Brian Hayes MEP





    Monday 28th May 2018
    European Commission’s new e-bike restrictions is bureaucracy gone mad - Hayes



    Brian Hayes MEP today reacted to the European Commission’s new legislative proposal on the Motor Insurance Directive which would require all e-bike users to avail of third party insurance.





    “The Commission have just landed a perplexing decision on European citizens. The first major standout issue is that under the proposal, electric bicycles, segways and electric scooters would all now be required to have third party insurance in Europe.





    “More and more electric bikes are on our streets in Ireland and across the EU. They offer an environmentally friendly alternative to using a car and are increasingly used by people as a means of transport to work.





    “The rise of electric bikes has been a huge success story and the Commission’s proposal would bring that story to an end with this harsh proposal. The Commission’s own research shows that there is expected to be 62 million e-bikes in Europe by 2030. But if the Commission’s Motor Insurance Directive becomes law, then all e-bike without third party insurance would be cycling illegally.





    “We should be encouraging alternative forms of transport like e-bikes as that will reduce our reliance on cars and thereby reducing traffic. E-bikes also promote a healthier lifestyle for people and are more sustainable for our cities.





    “The second major issue in the proposal relates to the use of vehicles on private property. The Commission is enforcing a disproportionate ECJ ruling, the so-called ‘Vnuk ruling’, which states that all vehicles used on private property must have third party insurance. This includes golf buggies on golf courses, it covers motorsport races and it covers farming vehicles.





    “In Ireland, our current Road Traffic Act states that vehicles require third party insurance when used on public roads. There is effectively no market for insurance for vehicles on private property and the insurance industry has said that it will not be able to provide this type of cover.





    “This is EU bureaucracy gone mad. I, along with other MEPs and Member States have been campaigning to ensure that this ECJ ruling is rectified in the Motor Insurance Directive but the Commission have done the opposite and have actually reinforced the negative effects of this ruling.





    “I am hoping that Minister Ross, who is overlooking this file, will take an active role in campaigning against these proposals when they are discussed in Council. It is very unfortunate that the Commission would propose a measure that is in direct contradiction with our national legislation.”





    ENDS


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    #21
    dom_1000
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭dom_1000


    Absolutely no more dangerous than riding a moped,
    ASFAIK you need insurance and a license to ride a moped, but not a chipped ebike


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    #22
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,453 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    my understanding is that the exemption applies to non-chipped bikes, but not chipped bikes.
    Pedelecs with a motor assisting beyond 25 km/h and E-bikes with a maximum design speed exceeding 25 km/h are classified as conventional mopeds (category L1e) and have to be type-approved accordingly.
    http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/08/eu-regulations-for-e-bikes-pedelecs-part-1-1018836


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    #23
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,774 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    There's no real enforcement of the speed requirement now - people are buying eBikes online that can go faster than 25km/h - how are the guards supposed to know? Any bike will hit 50km/h going downhill anyway.

    the exemption should be mainly weight based IMO, that would also cover things like electric scooters, solo-wheels etc (which are currently technically illegal, but again rarely enforced). Battery-power device weighing less than x kg is exempt. Anything that gets people out of their cars is a good thing, who cares if it has a "throttle".


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    #24
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,511 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    loyatemu wrote: »
    There's no real enforcement of the speed requirement now - people are buying eBikes online that can go faster than 25km/h - how are the guards supposed to know? Any bike will hit 50km/h going downhill anyway.the exemption should be mainly weight based IMO, that would also cover things like electric scooters, solo-wheels etc (which are currently technically illegal, but again rarely enforced). Battery-power device weighing less than x kg is exempt. Anything that gets people out of their cars is a good thing, who cares if it has a "throttle".

    I see enough people on petrol motor powered bicycles to know that the policing of chipped Ebikes won't be policed.

    Also that no insurance company will provide specific "Ebike insurance" and this is all a waste of time coming from the EU..


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    #25
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    loyatemu wrote: »
    There's no real enforcement of the speed requirement now - people are buying eBikes online that can go faster than 25km/h - how are the guards supposed to know? Any bike will hit 50km/h going downhill anyway.

    the exemption should be mainly weight based IMO, that would also cover things like electric scooters, solo-wheels etc (which are currently technically illegal, but again rarely enforced). Battery-power device weighing less than x kg is exempt. Anything that gets people out of their cars is a good thing, who cares if it has a "throttle".

    And so will an e-bike. It's just assisted up to 25 km/h (which is really not fast), but if you can get it to go faster, the sky's the limit.
    I have a pedelec (as it's called in Germany), assisted to 25 km/h, after that the motor cuts out.
    The fastest I managed to go is 60 km/h, but I would also manage that on my old, regular bike.
    So over 25 km/h it's entirely irellevant if it's an e or regular bike.
    The differnece would be that most e-bikes are built very well, have disc brakes front an back and are able to handle the speed.
    My old bike has worn out hubs, pedals and crank and uses V brakes that mostly function as a warning device to other road users to to their screaming.

    Yes you can buy bikes that go over 25 assisted, but they are treated a mopeds and you need license and insurance, a helmet, mirrors, etc...
    It should be up to the Gards to be able to tell the difference, it's not Joe Soap's fault they can't.
    As for tuning you regular e-bike to go over 25, well that's just bang illegal.


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    #26
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,286 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    As there been incident where an ebike was to blame and the cyclist couldn’t cover costs ?
    Because the reason motor insurance is compulsory is that in many instances claims are beyond the means of drivers


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    #27
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,774 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    And so will an e-bike. It's just assisted up to 25 km/h (which is really not fast), but if you can get it to go faster, the sky's the limit.
    I have a pedelec (as it's called in Germany), assisted to 25 km/h, after that the motor cuts out.
    The fastest I managed to go is 60 km/h, but I would also manage that on my old, regular bike.
    So over 25 km/h it's entirely irellevant if it's an e or regular bike.

    that wasn't really my point, I know eBikes can go faster. I just don't see the logic in limiting them to 25km/h, or insisting they're pedal-assisted either.

    One bike travelling at 40km/h is the same as another bike travelling at 40km/h regardless of what form of locomotion was used to get them to that speed, and the guards can't enforce the rule in any meaningful way anyway. Just apply a maximum weight over which insurance is required and ditch the other regulations.


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    #28
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    loyatemu wrote: »
    One bike travelling at 40km/h is the same as another bike travelling at 40km/h regardless of what form of locomotion was used to get them to that speed, and the guards can't enforce the rule in any meaningful way anyway. Just apply a maximum weight over which insurance is required and ditch the other regulations.

    That wont work either. Whilst more exotic materials like Carbon & Titanium are expensive and generally involve sacrificing a wallet on an alter of credit cards, how does one deal with the legality of a super-light bicycle that is able to exceed the current classification speed limit under your suggestion of being weight-based classification instead? Further, what happens to full-suspension e-bikes, which will be heavier than their rigid compatriots. Same power output, yet one requiring insurance.

    The only reliable common denominator in all of this is the power output.


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    #29
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,453 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    worth pointing out that basing insurance on the weight of the vehicle would be a new departure.
    a qashqai probably weighs more than a ferrari, but the weight is not taken into account at all when calculating premiums.


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    #30
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,774 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    worth pointing out that basing insurance on the weight of the vehicle would be a new departure.
    a qashqai probably weighs more than a ferrari, but the weight is not taken into account at all when calculating premiums.

    I guess it's an assessment of the risk associated with the vehicle - an eBike is a lot lighter than say a motorbike, or even the lightest of cars. The potential for damage or injury is exponentially less. I don't know what the weight limit would be (and it would still be difficult to enforce), but I don't see the point of the arbitrary 25km/h limit.

    There's a reason the guards don't pay much attention to the various battery powered vehicles already in use, or to cycling offences in general - they don't regard them as a significant problem compared to motoring offences (TBH enforcement of those isn't great either, maybe the guards just don't care much about anything...)


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    #31
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    loyatemu wrote: »
    that wasn't really my point, I know eBikes can go faster. I just don't see the logic in limiting them to 25km/h, or insisting they're pedal-assisted either.

    One bike travelling at 40km/h is the same as another bike travelling at 40km/h regardless of what form of locomotion was used to get them to that speed, and the guards can't enforce the rule in any meaningful way anyway. Just apply a maximum weight over which insurance is required and ditch the other regulations.

    Makes perfect sense to me. Up to 25 km/h and pedal assisted, it's a so-called pedelec and can be rode by anyone just like any bicycle, reason being is that they are not substantially heavier or faster than any normal bike.
    Even on my clapped out old mountainbike (once described as a gate with wheels) I was able to pass out pedelecs.

    Then you have your fast e-bikes, capable of speeds of up to 45 km/h assisted, need a moped license, insurance, number plate, helmet, etc...
    To me this distinction is entirely sensible. What if it was weight? Some pedelecs would need a license and some fast ebikes wouldn't because of very heavy or light build.
    It would just create a mess.


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