The Adoption Scandal

odyssey06 · 31-05-2018 12:03AM

mrslancaster wrote: »

Most people who find out information about being adopted do get along with their lives and i suspect there will be many who have no suspicions about this either.

From what i heard today there was information about backgrounds found in files held by tusla. The 'parents' were wrong to falsify the birth certs and then to carry on with the lie.
All the correct information and the truth should be given to those affected irrespective of their age but that's just my opinion.
Everyone has the right to know their origins and it's easy for those not affected to be dismissive of others rights.

It sounds like not much has changed, some sectors of society thinking they know best for others because something happened years ago.

This is not about denying people the right to know their origins. This is about the wisdom of pro actively informing people about their origins.

You are no more or no less guilty of kthinking you know whats best for others than anyone else on this thread.

I have said that I would not want to know were I in this situation... this is not not about some sectors deciding what is best for others when we dont even know who the others are. They are us.

McCrack · 31-05-2018 12:08AM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Dont inform anyone.

How will they even know they are sending the letter to the right people and address after 50 years minimum elapsed time?

Setup a body or team in Tulsa and let concerned people contact them.

Dont inform?

I think most people will agree that cannot and will not happen. Thankfully we live in an increasingly open, transparent and accountable society where the old culture of "ask not, tell not" is disappearing.

Every person is entitled to know their natural and true identity. It is what makes each one of us unique. The State has vicarious duties for the acts (or inactions) of the adoption societies and simply not telling people effected here that they were adopted is not an option.

31-05-2018 12:08AM

mrslancaster wrote: »

Most people who find out information about being adopted do get along with their lives and i suspect there will be many who have no suspicions about this either.

From what i heard today there was information about backgrounds found in files held by tusla. The 'parents' were wrong to falsify the birth certs and then to carry on with the lie.

All the correct information and the truth should be given to those affected irrespective of their age but that's just my opinion.

Everyone has the right to know their origins and it's easy for those not affected to be dismissive of others rights.

It sounds like not much has changed, some sectors of society thinking they know best for others because something happened years ago.

Finding out when you are an adult that you are adopted can be identity shattering. At the very beginning of the process is the best time. As I posted earlier the child should grow up with the awareness and knowledge of being adopted. Even then there may be struggles related to a potential early attachment defecit and the dealing with feelings of abandonment and not fitting in. Adoption is very complicated.

Mrs OBumble · 31-05-2018 12:10AM

mrslancaster wrote: »

Everyone has the right to know their origins ...

And that's an excellent argument form making intercourse outside of a stable relationship unacceptable: with one night stands, there is just too much risk that a child will be created who cannot be given any information about half of their origins, because the mother simply does not know who she shagged.

Of course in the age we live in, it's totally unrealistic. So there will always be some people who cannot be given information about their origins.

I don't know about people in Ireland 50 / 60 / 70 years ago. But I know that some Irish people in the country where I grew up were dreadful liars about who babies were actually born to. Sometimes adoptions were formal. Sometimes they were informal. Some unlucky people never actually got their birth certificate until they retired and went to apply for the pension - only to discover that they were actually younger than they thought (ie not old enough to get the pension!) .. and that their parents names were different to what they thought.

The Irish aren't the only ones who do it, of course, but they just seemed to have a higher proportion of liars than other groups.

Joe Dog · 31-05-2018 12:10AM

mrslancaster wrote: »

Most people who find out information about being adopted do get along with their lives and i suspect there will be many who have no suspicions about this either.

From what i heard today there was information about backgrounds found in files held by tusla. The 'parents' were wrong to falsify the birth certs and then to carry on with the lie.

All the correct information and the truth should be given to those affected irrespective of their age but that's just my opinion.

Everyone has the right to know their origins and it's easy for those not affected to be dismissive of others rights.

It sounds like not much has changed, some sectors of society thinking they know best for others because something happened years ago.

But I'm not saying they don't have a right to know , what I am saying is they shouldn't be told regardless of whether they want to know or not.

Allow people the choice to opt in and find out whether they are adopted don't force people who are old to find out their whole life has been a lie.The people affected will be from age 50 to 70 right now.

Children should be told whether they were adopted or not but it's now too late for that, I'm not sure it's as good an idea to tell people who are well past middle age particularly if they have no notion that they might have been adopted.

McCrack · 31-05-2018 12:16AM

Joe Dog wrote: »

But I'm not saying they don't have a right to know , what I am saying is they shouldn't be told regardless of whether they want to know or not.

Allow people the choice to opt in and find out whether they are adopted don't force people who are old to find out their whole life has been a lie.The people affected will be from age 50 to 70 right now.

Children should be told whether they were adopted or not but it's now too late for that, I'm not sure it's as good an idea to tell people who are well past middle age particularly if they have no notion that they might have been adopted.

This is a ill thought out post

Clearly if they are not going to be told then their right to
know is being denied

odyssey06 · 31-05-2018 12:16AM

McCrack wrote: »

Dont inform?

I think most people will agree that cannot and will not happen. Thankfully we live in an increasingly open, transparent and accountable society where the old culture of "ask not, tell not" is disappearing.

Every person is entitled to know their natural and true identity. It is what makes each one of us unique. The State has vicarious duties for the acts (or inactions) of the adoption societies and simply not telling people effected here that they were adopted is not an option.

You dont appear to consider the possible impact or even care about the possible emotional devastation this could inflict on the people who receive the letter do you?
Does it matter at all in your vision of transparent ireland?

i really dont think most people in this country would agree with you at all, when it comes to telling people of this age bracket.

odyssey06 · 31-05-2018 12:19AM

McCrack wrote: »

This is a ill thought out post

Clearly if they are not going to be told then their right to
know is being denied

The right to know in the sense of meaning the right to establish the knowledge.
The right to know does not necessarily mean the right to be told.

TheValeyard · 31-05-2018 12:20AM

odyssey06 wrote: »

I don't think they do, need to. Small remote chance it might be helpful but I'm not seeing a need.

These people are at least in their 50s by now. Some are in their 70s.
Their biological parents are most likely dead.

What are the chances that (a) they have an inherited disease which has not yet manifested and (b) will be able to track down their biological parents or their medical records and (c) that information will be medically useful?

a small remote chance? You have literally zero idea what inherent disease or illness could be passed down to you. Its not as remote as you think. Doctors will always ask about family history in hospitals. Its essential information.
Some of these conditions or illnesses could even be late life stage events. Rules are changing for adopted people or have done and the right to medical records or requests at least. All information about your past can help protect you for your future.

McCrack · 31-05-2018 12:21AM

odyssey06 wrote: »

You dont appear to consider the possible impact or even care about the possible emotional devastation this could inflict on the people who receive the letter do you?
Does it matter at all in your vision of transparent ireland?

i really dont think most people in this country would agree with you at all, when it comes to telling people of this age bracket.

I have no doubt the Adoption Authority of Ireland along with the HSE/TUSLA will be most cognisant of the legitimate concerns you raise when they devise a strategy how to deal with this sensitively.

Joe Dog · 31-05-2018 12:22AM

McCrack wrote: »

This is a ill thought out post

Clearly if they are not going to be told then their right to
know is being denied

No it isn't.

If people want to know they can find out, if they want to carry on in ignorance then they can.

The people who will want to know are probably people who has suspicions due to how they were treated by their adoptive parents, the people who wouldn't want to know probably are happy with their life as it is.

If I found out I was adopted or my father wasn't really my father I would be pretty upset by it and it wouldn't do me any good at all.

If you want to tell everyone that's fair enough but it will almost certainly cause an awful lot of heartache for some people that could be avoided.

Samsgirl · 31-05-2018 12:25AM

Joe Dog wrote: »

The people who are in the main the most accountable are the parents and families of these women who allowed them to be put into these homes.

They have way way more responsibility than the church or the government of the times (even though they obviously have to shoulder some of the blame).

We live in different times now though. The church hasn't a fraction of the power it wielded back then. People were genuinely fearful and those who stood up were punished.

We can't judge the past with the wisdom of today.

McCrack · 31-05-2018 12:26AM

Joe Dog wrote: »

No it isn't.

If people want to know they can find out, if they want to carry on in ignorance then they can.

The people who will want to know are probably people who has suspicions due to how they were treated by their adoptive parents, the people who wouldn't want to know probably are happy with their life as it is.

If I found out I was adopted or my father wasn't really my father I would be pretty upset by it and it wouldn't do me any good at all.

If you want to tell everyone that's fair enough but it will almost certainly cause an awful lot of heartache for some people that could be avoided.

Im sorry but I cant take you serious so im not engaging further with you

odyssey06 · 31-05-2018 12:27AM

McCrack wrote: »

I have no doubt the Adoption Authority of Ireland along with the HSE/TUSLA will be most cognisant of the legitimate concerns you raise when they devise a strategy how to deal with this sensitively.

Lets hope they approach it from the perspective of the affected people first rather than, as can happen with bureaucracies, how do we cover ourselves.

Joe Dog · 31-05-2018 12:29AM

Samsgirl wrote: »

We live in different times now though. The church hasn't a fraction of the power it wielded back then. People were genuinely fearful and those who stood up were punished.

We can't judge the past with the wisdom of today.

I agree with that to an extent but still the people who allowed family members to be taken away fro no real reason have to get the bulk of the blame.

To be cruel to a person in general is bad but to allow cruelty to be inflicted upon a family member is way way worse.

The church is an easy whipping boy because people don't want to admit that their parents,grandparents etc were complicit in all the stuff the church did.

fritzelly · 31-05-2018 12:31AM

(Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if I am repeating anything)

The only scandal that can come out of this is why they were put up for adoption in the first place

I am not going to lay any blame at the adopting parents doorstep who probably loved and cared for the kids as their own and gave them a great life.

Joe Dog · 31-05-2018 12:31AM

McCrack wrote: »

Im sorry but I cant take you serious so im not engaging further with you

You want to let everybody know every available piece of information about everything then fair enough but sometimes for a lot of people ignorance is bliss.I can't really take your lack of understanding that seriously at all.

Samsgirl · 31-05-2018 12:36AM

Joe Dog wrote: »

That was a gay marriage referendum not marriage equality referendum.People who would want to marry their sibling could not do so (regardless of how weird that might be).

Thirty-fourth Amendment of the Constitution (Marriage Equality) Act 2015

Joe Dog · 31-05-2018 12:39AM

Samsgirl wrote: »

Thirty-fourth Amendment of the Constitution (Marriage Equality) Act 2015

Which was an inaccurate description regardless of what it was called.

Marriage equality just sounds much more worthy than a same sex marriage act.

Samsgirl · 31-05-2018 12:47AM

Joe Dog wrote: »

I agree with that to an extent but still the people who allowed family members to be taken away fro no real reason have to get the bulk of the blame.

To be cruel to a person in general is bad but to allow cruelty to be inflicted upon a family member is way way worse.

The church is an easy whipping boy because people don't want to admit that their parents,grandparents etc were complicit in all the stuff the church did.

Again, you are looking at a situation with the clairty and wisdom of today.

It was a different country. You just didn't question what you were told to do.

I know from talking to family members now in their 70's and 80's that the fear was genuine. If you stood up to the powers that be you were taken away and and locked up. Even to the point of being declated insane and sent to an institution.

We have no idea how bad it was.

Samsgirl · 31-05-2018 12:49AM

Joe Dog wrote: »

Which was an inaccurate description regardless of what it was called.

Marriage equality just sounds much more worthy than a same sex marriage act.

And how is it not equality?

Joe Dog · 31-05-2018 12:52AM

Samsgirl wrote: »

And how is it not equality?

If me and my sister (2 consenting adults) want to get married we can't.

We wouldn't be doing any harm to anyone else but we'd still be forbidden from getting married.

Marriage equality should mean any 2 consenting adults could get married to each other.

May not be much demand for allowing it but it's just an example of why marriage equality is technically is an inaccurate description.

Samsgirl · 31-05-2018 12:56AM

Joe Dog wrote: »

If me and my sister (2 consenting adults) want to get married we can't.

We wouldn't be doing any harm to anyone else but we'd still be forbidden from getting married.

Marriage equality should mean any 2 consenting adults could get married to each other.

May not be much demand for allowing it but it's just an example of why marriage equality is technically is an inaccurate description.

Riiiiiiight... And I'm out

tritriagain · 31-05-2018 01:00AM

McCrack wrote: »

Im sorry but I cant take you serious so im not engaging further with you

Get over yourself . Setting up a helpline type of thing is a compassionate way of dealing with the situation. If people want to find out they can . If I could find out now that I was adoted I would choose not too. On a side note Leo said on the news that this was a link to the dark days of Ireland, but we are now living in a new Ireland which the recent referendum proves. Yeah leo, let's just forget about the cervical cancer scandal , shall we. Muppet.

Joe Dog · 31-05-2018 01:01AM

Samsgirl wrote: »

Riiiiiiight... And I'm out

People would have had the same qualms about gay marriage/sex in the past and said it wasn't appropriate behavior.

I'm being very pedantic but It's just not 100% accurate to call it a marriage equality act whether people want to accept that or not.

Rubberchikken · 31-05-2018 01:10AM

People, women, placed their babies in these homes for various reasons.
Unless you know the reason why they did this, i dont think anyone should lay any blame on them.
How many more f...ups is this country going to announce this year is anyones guess.

pawrick · 31-05-2018 01:57AM

I have a long form birth cert with my adoptive parents on it and an adoption cert which was issued later (my adoption was more recent than the ones in this case). If I had not been told as a child that I was adopted my parents probably could have gotten away without ever telling me.

My own personal opinion is that if i had not already known I'd prefer not to be told as an adult as it'd throw my life in to a spin. Everyone will have a different take on this but I cant see what overall good it will make telling people at this stage in their lives including for health reasons.

Graces7 · 31-05-2018 10:45AM

This may be the thin end of a very large wedge, given the numbers of babies sold with false papers from the Mother and Baby homes.

"Mr Finlay said an investigation now needed to be carried out into at least 150,000 adoptions. He added he would be "amazed" if at least 10% of those cases were not found to be illegal.

"It was a crime against the children because it robbed them of their identity, their heritage, their health histories."

He added that it was also a crime against their mothers.

"A lot of women were told after their babies were taken from them that their babies had died and not to inquire about them again. Some women have gone through years and years of trauma," he said."

from the rte report.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0530/966986-adoption/

Auguste Comte · 31-05-2018 11:09AM

Child trafficking I think would be the proper description of what was going on at the time. How many babies were sold to rich Americans for profit by the nuns during this time? Calling it adoption of any form legal or not is only sanitising the issue, call it what it is.

Shurimgreat · 31-05-2018 11:24AM

Many of these babies were abandoned babies as a result of crises pregnancies. Had they been conceived in more recent years, there is a very high likelihood the majority would have been aborted and there would be no discussion about anything related to adoption.

Adoption is often a messy, controversial area. No-one ends up happy. Which is probably why many choose abortion rather than having the baby and putting them up for adoption. Abortion is far far easier than a 9 months pregnancy and then adoption.

Our handling of adoption has always been p*ss poor in this country since the foundation of the state. On the otherhand many of these babies were adopted by wealthy Americans and probably lived long and prosperous lives. Being adopted in 1930s, 40s or 50s Ireland by a wealthy American was surely like a golden ticket and a route out of the impoverished backward Ireland of the time. The alternative was either staying in backwards Ireland or if in more recent years being aborted.

No-one in Ireland gave a damn about these babies, particularly not the government or state of the time. They were abandoned, they were dispensable and as I said if it was more recent times they would have been aborted.

The Adoption Scandal

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