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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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Comments

  • #5012
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,550 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    BenEadir wrote: »
    So the margin of error in an exit poll was 1.6%.

    That could have meant 50.4% were in favour of abortion on request up to 12 weeks or that 53.6% were in favour. Both are majority decisions.

    Absolutely. A sliver-thin majority when it comes to the most significant element of the proposed legislation. And if you look the actual level of error (the other is a guesstimate of the error to be expected), you'd find the margin would swing the other way.

    Not that I'd suppose this means one ought legislate for that sliver thin majority.

    Have you ever heard of the concept of proportional representation? It operates here.


    In the most recent census 78.3% of the population declared themselves as catholic yet 66% of voters in the referendum voted to repeal the 8th knowing the govt proposed to introduce legislation permitting abortion on request up to 12 weeks.

    Not only have self declared christians voted for abortion on request in their droves but it seems clear that a huge number of "catholics" talk the talk in public but (thankfully) don't walk the walk in the privacy of the voting booth.

    The veneer of being a catholic is losing its shine at an accelerating pace.


    Firstly, as we've seen above, only half the electorate has voted for abortion on request (which I take to be the unlimited abortion referred to in the OP)

    2ndly, the OP isn't a Catholic and wouldn't be supposing that someone who is a Catholic is necessarily a Christian. You have to see things in the context they are posed.

    3rdly. I'm not supposing that a person who is a Christian (per the OP) wouldn't vote for abortion on request. I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me that someone would.


  • #5013
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,550 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Morbert wrote: »
    I don't expect the pro-life side to stop resisting abortion legislation, but it's important to accept the broad lessons of this referendum.

    A split down the middle on abortion on request up to 12 weeks. Acceptance? Good luck with that!


  • #5014
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Absolutely. A sliver-thin majority when it comes to the most significant element of the proposed legislation. And if you look the actual level of error (the other is a guesstimate of the error to be expected), you'd find the margin would swing the other way.

    Would've should've could've. You're assuming the 48% who voted no did so because they don't want any abortion on request whereas quite a lot of that 48% may have voted no because they feel 12 weeks is too restrictive and would have preferred abortion on request up to 16, 20 or 24 weeks.

    You can try to bend the figures to suit your prejudiced narrative all you like but you won't convince anyone or change the outcome.

    BTW, how did proportional representation help those who wanted but couldn't access abortion on request over the last 35 years? No doubt you like proportional representation now you are in the minority ;) That ship has sailed.
    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Firstly, as we've seen above, only half the electorate has voted for abortion on request (which I take to be the unlimited abortion referred to in the OP)

    There you go trying to present "alternative facts" again. I think you'll find that 66% of voters approved repeal of the 8th in the full knowledge that abortion on request will be legislated for. You can make all the false arguments you like but it won't change the outcome.
    antiskeptic wrote: »
    2ndly, the OP isn't a Catholic and wouldn't be supposing that someone who is a Catholic is necessarily a Christian.


    :eek: What is a catholic if not christian?
    antiskeptic wrote: »
    You have to see things in the context they are posed.

    I love how you try to tell me how I have to see things. I can determine the context myself thank you very much :P
    antiskeptic wrote: »
    3rdly. I'm not supposing that a person who is a Christian (per the OP) wouldn't vote for abortion on request. I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me that someone would.

    Self declared christians voted to repeal the 8th in their droves and did so in the context of proposed legislation permitting abortion on request up to 12 weeks.

    That comprehensively answers the OP's question unless of course you live in a parallel universe where catholics are not christians and 66% of the vote is "half". :o


  • #5015
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    I am very hopeful now that the 20 to 30% of the country that is catholic like myself can organize and get 1/5 if the schools for ourselves and give the rest over to the dept of education to organize as they see fit.
    That way the catholic children of catholic parents can get a catholic education.
    I also think that catholic priests should withdraw from acting as civil marriage officiants and let those wishing to take the sacrament of matrimony have their civil wedding first as is the custom in other churches.
    I don’t know how funerals will be dealt with, I guess only families known to the parish will be able to avail of a catholic funeral or baptism but it’s not going to be difficult.
    Of course it’s a given that only children at the catholic school will be getting communion and confirmation.
    This referendum is a blessing in disguise for us.


  • #5016
    FutureGuy
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    As per the news today, Bishop Kevin Doran feels that you should consider going to confession if you voted yes as it was a sin.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

    Just curious what the general feeling is here regarding this? I understand the Church has a "pro-life" stance in general and during the referendum, but surely you can vote without having to go to confession afterwards?


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  • #5017
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I am very hopeful now that the 20 to 30% of the country that is catholic like myself can organize and get 1/5 if the schools for ourselves and give the rest over to the dept of education to organize as they see fit.
    That way the catholic children of catholic parents can get a catholic education.
    I also think that catholic priests should withdraw from acting as civil marriage officiants and let those wishing to take the sacrament of matrimony have their civil wedding first as is the custom in other churches.
    I don’t know how funerals will be dealt with, I guess only families known to the parish will be able to avail of a catholic funeral or baptism but it’s not going to be difficult.
    Of course it’s a given that only children at the catholic school will be getting communion and confirmation.
    This referendum is a blessing in disguise for us.


    I wish there were more catholics like yourself who live rather than pay lip service to the religion, we'd have a far more honest and transparent society if we did.


    The schools issue is more complex to disentangle than your proposed solution given the decades of public funding for the schools but fundamentally there's no reason why the catholic church shouldn't be allowed to run catholic only schools if demand for same exists.


    Personally I think all schools should be free of religion and open to all children in a geographic area with religious instruction being a matter for parents/families and their respective churches to pursue outside school hours and off school grounds as defining schools by religion just polarises society and creates barriers to social integration but as long as it's legal for other religions to have schools reserved for students of their faith then catholics should be afforded the same opportunity.



    BTW, if you're a catholic and voted yes you need to get yourself down to confession pronto!!


  • #5018
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,550 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    BenEadir wrote: »
    Would've should've could've. You're assuming the 48% who voted no did so because they don't want any abortion on request whereas quite a lot of that 48% may have voted no because they feel 12 weeks is too restrictive and would have preferred abortion on request up to 16, 20 or 24 weeks.

    The RTE poll calculated out 52% for a.o.r based on their self-scoring on the liberal end of the scale. You can't extract higher figures for a more liberal regime from people who are less liberal.

    BTW, how did proportional representation help those who wanted but couldn't access abortion on request over the last 35 years? No doubt you like proportional representation now you are in the minority ;) That ship has sailed.

    A thing called the 8th stood in their way. Now that we're looking at legislation, p.p. can operate.


    There you go trying to present "alternative facts" again. I think you'll find that 66% of voters approved repeal of the 8th in the full knowledge that abortion on request will be legislated for. You can make all the false arguments you like but it won't change the outcome.

    66% voted for repeal. Once that is done, they can decide what they want done with proposed legislation. The government isn't a dictatorship, their job is to represent peoples wishes.



    :eek: What is a catholic if not christian?



    I love how you try to tell me how I have to see things. I can determine the context myself thank you very much :P

    I'm afraid a dictionary isn't an authority on these things.


    Self declared christians voted to repeal the 8th/

    Fine if self-declaration makes you a Christian. Not fine if not. I'm only telling you how I think the OP (since he's expressed his view in his contributions here) defines a Christian and why then, that context is central to the OP. You don't have to believe me: horse/water/drink and all that.


  • #5019
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    The RTE poll calculated out 52% for a.o.r based on their self-scoring on the liberal end of the scale. You can't extract higher figures for a more liberal regime from people who are less liberal.




    A thing called the 8th stood in their way. Now that we're looking at legislation, p.p. can operate.





    66% voted for repeal. Once that is done, they can decide what they want done with proposed legislation. The government isn't a dictatorship, their job is to represent peoples wishes.






    I'm afraid a dictionary isn't an authority on these things.


    Self declared christians voted to repeal the 8th/

    Fine if self-declaration makes you a Christian. Not fine if not.


    It's been enlightening engaging with you, your perverse world view confirms why the SSM and 8th referendums were carried so comprehensively despite your revisionist view of the facts.


    I have much better and more enjoyable things to do with my time than debate with someone who is so intolerant and narrow minded so I'll be unsubscribing once I finish this post.



    Keep plugging away though, no doubt you'll provide entertainment for others for weeks/months/years to come.


  • #5020
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,550 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    Just curious what the general feeling is here regarding this? I understand the Church has a "pro-life" stance in general and during the referendum, but surely you can vote without having to go to confession afterwards?

    I can't see how a Catholic evades the need. He gives authority to the Church to instruct him on matters of morals. If he acts contra that then he needs confession.

    If he decides he can do a solo run (i.e. the RC church is wrong in this) then he's setting himself adrift - deciding that he (not the RC Church) is the authority on matters morals, etc.

    Which makes him a Protestant :)


  • #5021
    TheShow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭TheShow


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    As per the news today, Bishop Kevin Doran feels that you should consider going to confession if you voted yes as it was a sin.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

    Just curious what the general feeling is here regarding this? I understand the Church has a "pro-life" stance in general and during the referendum, but surely you can vote without having to go to confession afterwards?

    Thats pretty laughable, considering how many people/babies the catholic church killed/murdered in those homes and buried in mass graves depriving them of any dignity. Yes, lets take moral advice from the church.


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  • #5022
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BenEadir wrote: »
    I wish there were more catholics like yourself who live rather than pay lip service to the religion, we'd have a far more honest and transparent society if we did.


    The schools issue is more complex to disentangle than your proposed solution given the decades of public funding for the schools but fundamentally there's no reason why the catholic church shouldn't be allowed to run catholic only schools if demand for same exists.


    Personally I think all schools should be free of religion and open to all children in a geographic area with religious instruction being a matter for parents/families and their respective churches to pursue outside school hours and off school grounds as defining schools by religion just polarises society and creates barriers to social integration but as long as it's legal for other religions to have schools reserved for students of their faith then catholics should be afforded the same opportunity.



    BTW, if you're a catholic and voted yes you need to get yourself down to confession pronto!!

    I voted no in the referendum but am unphased unsurprised and unaffected by the result of the referendum apart from the hope that the yes voters and supporters will get on with organizing the country as they see fit, they are in the vast majority, and allow Catholics to get on with doing their own thing, including not stigmatizing medical professionals who decide to opt out of the abortion on demand regime, and being happy with the education system when it is organized the way they want it.
    It’s perfectly legal all over Europe and in the UK to have schools defined by religion, places in faith schools in the UK are much sought after due to getting such good results. Surely if there are 5 secondary schools (as there are in my town) and only one is catholic then you have 4 other schools to choose from for your children then you haven’t any grounds to keep complaining ?


  • #5023
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    TheShow wrote: »
    Thats pretty laughable, considering how many people/babies the catholic church killed/murdered in those homes and buried in mass graves depriving them of any dignity. Yes, lets take moral advice from the church.

    You don’t have to take any advice from anyone especially if your not a Catholic and if your not a Catholic I don’t even understand how it’s of any interest to you. Why don’t you just get on with your own life and let other people get on with theirs?


  • #5024
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I also think that catholic priests should withdraw from acting as civil marriage officiants and let those wishing to take the sacrament of matrimony have their civil wedding first as is the custom in other churches.

    Actually, that isn't the custom in other churches. Most churches in Ireland have their ministers registered as solemnisers so that they conduct both the religious and the legal aspects of marriage in the same ceremony.

    My own preference would be for church weddings to be separated totally from civil marriage, so churches marry Christians and also give the couple the option to register the marriage with the State if they wish to - but I'm in a minority on that.


  • #5025
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Actually, that isn't the custom in other churches. Most churches in Ireland have their ministers registered as solemnisers so that they conduct both the religious and the legal aspects of marriage in the same ceremony.

    My own preference would be for church weddings to be separated totally from civil marriage, so churches marry Christians and also give the couple the option to register the marriage with the State if they wish to - but I'm in a minority on that.

    Catholic priests are registered as solemnisers. My point is that they should deregister.
    You’re msking it too complicated.
    If the couple get the civil bit out of the way in the registry office then they can avail the sacrament of matrimony after they’ve satisfied the priest that they actually are committed Catholics.
    I personally don’t think there should be any such thing as civil marriage anymore.
    If a couple want to enter into a legally binding contract including sharing tax credits and inheritance rights for kids, then they can do that with a solicitor.
    Those wishing for a religious blessing can sort it out with the priest vicar rector imam rabbi etc etc
    Please I don’t want to hear anymore about pressure from family to have a church wedding etc that is all nonsense now that 66% of the vote was an anti catholic one.
    It was always nonsense anyway. Old enough to marry? Old enough to tell your granny to mind her own business .


  • #5026
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I voted no in the referendum but am unphased unsurprised and unaffected by the result of the referendum apart from the hope that the yes voters and supporters will get on with organizing the country as they see fit, they are in the vast majority, and allow Catholics to get on with doing their own thing, including not stigmatizing medical professionals who decide to opt out of the abortion on demand regime, and being happy with the education system when it is organized the way they want it.
    It’s perfectly legal all over Europe and in the UK to have schools defined by religion, places in faith schools in the UK are much sought after due to getting such good results. Surely if there are 5 secondary schools (as there are in my town) and only one is catholic then you have 4 other schools to choose from for your children then you haven’t any grounds to keep complaining ?

    And when will you be organising your proposed sterilisation program for people on social welfare once they've had two children so your taxes aren't spent on them?


  • #5027
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    And when will you be organising your proposed sterilisation program for people on social welfare once they've had two children so your taxes aren't spent on them?

    I’ve got a committee up and running and we will be rounding them up Chitty Chitty Bang Bang childcatcher style from next Monday .
    Were looking for volunteers. Are you up for it?


  • #5028
    FutureGuy
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    TheShow wrote: »
    Thats pretty laughable, considering how many people/babies the catholic church killed/murdered in those homes and buried in mass graves depriving them of any dignity. Yes, lets take moral advice from the church.

    You are right, the church is responsible for a number of atrocities but I want to focus on the bishop’s comment in isolation.

    Any thought?


  • #5029
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I’ve got a committee up and running and we will be rounding them up Chitty Chitty Bang Bang childcatcher style from next Monday .
    Were looking for volunteers. Are you up for it?

    So your planning to sterilise kids now?

    The only thing you worship is your salary.


  • #5030
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    So your planning to sterilise kids now?

    To save you from any further efforts to respond to me I’m telling you now that I’m just going to put you on ignore. So you understand that there is no point in trying to engage further.


  • #5031
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    splinter65 wrote: »
    To save you from any further efforts to respond to me I’m telling you now that I’m just going to put you on ignore. So you understand that there is no point in trying to engage further.

    Thanks don't have much time for hypocritical racists anyway.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107037690&postcount=151

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107040359&postcount=184


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  • #5032
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I am very hopeful now that the 20 to 30% of the country that is catholic like myself can organize and get 1/5 if the schools for ourselves and give the rest over to the dept of education to organize as they see fit.
    That way the catholic children of catholic parents can get a catholic education.
    that is what Sunday school is for.
    I also think that catholic priests should withdraw from acting as civil marriage officiants and let those wishing to take the sacrament of matrimony have their civil wedding first as is the custom in other churches.
    I don’t know how funerals will be dealt with, I guess only families known to the parish will be able to avail of a catholic funeral or baptism but it’s not going to be difficult.
    Of course it’s a given that only children at the catholic school will be getting communion and confirmation.
    This referendum is a blessing in disguise for us.
    great way to ensure the Catholic Church is severely diminished in Ireland, throw the toys out of the pram and cloister up. Have at it.


  • #5033
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Overheal wrote: »
    that is what Sunday school is for.

    great way to ensure the Catholic Church is severely diminished in Ireland, throw the toys out of the pram and cloister up. Have at it.

    I think you need to read the last few pages before you jump in. David Quinn wants to hand 80% of the schools currently under the Catholic Church over to the state. So 20% will be proper catholic schools. If you don’t send your kid to the catholic school then you won’t need to worry about how much time is spent in sacrament prep, will you?
    The Catholic Church does just fine in France without conducting any civil marriages, why would it be any different here?


  • #5034
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I think you need to read the last few pages before you jump in. David Quinn wants to hand 80% of the schools currently under the Catholic Church over to the state. So 20% will be proper catholic schools. If you don’t send your kid to the catholic school then you won’t need to worry about how much time is spent in sacrament prep, will you?
    The Catholic Church does just fine in France without conducting any civil marriages, why would it be any different here?
    Depends on which 20% of schools the Catholic Church will be keeping then, and whether they will be in places that prohibit some children from having other choices in education.


  • #5035
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    Depends on which 20% of schools the Catholic Church will be keeping then, and whether they will be in places that prohibit some children from having other choices in education.

    I've no problems with catholic only schools as long as they don't receive any state funding. If you want a private school either denominational or not they shouldn't receive any state funding.


  • #5036
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    I've no problems with catholic only schools as long as they don't receive any state funding. If you want a private school either denominational or not they shouldn't receive any state funding.

    In turn people are going to want to make it that abortions aren't funded by taxes as well. Don't know how that will fly in Ireland's healthcare system though.


  • #5037
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    In turn people are going to want to make it that abortions aren't funded by taxes as well. Don't know how that will fly in Ireland's healthcare system though.

    Heard that from Declan Ganley, so you might be getting him back full time, but like here I'm fairly sure you don't get to decide what your taxes are used for in the US and neither can he, aware however that ye have apart from federal taxes, different sate and regional taxes and not sure how much tax spend goes of medical care.

    Anyone else who doesn't want to emigrate or become a tax exile won't have a choice in this. personally I don't like my taxes being spent on private schools and the greyhound industry but I don't a have choice in relation to this but that's the life and the law of the land.


  • #5038
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,550 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    It's understandable that this rapidly secularising society of ours sees the Church as the root of all evil. As if evil is going to somehow diminish under secularism.

    This interview with the guy who climbed 4 stories of an apartment block to rescue a child dangling from the balcony is a reminder to us what lay at the heart of our attempt to rescue Irish children from chemical and surgical death

    Mamoudou the Magnificent and Macron

    And his feat of daring do.


    Save the Children


  • #5039
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Heard that from Declan Ganley, so you might be getting him back full time, but like here I'm fairly sure you don't get to decide what your taxes are used for in the US and neither can he
    Actually political pressure from the Pro-Life side brought about the Hyde Amendment. It prohibits federal spending being spent on abortion unless its in the case of rape or incest and the mothers life is in jeopardy.

    This also hasnt stopped a lot of drives to make TRAP laws (look that up - red tape designed to legislate clinics into oblivion) and defunding clinic ops like Planned Parenthood that otherwise qualify for medicare medicaid and social security funds for providing services not directly related to abortion.


  • #5040
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    It's understandable that this rapidly secularising society of ours sees the Church as the root of all evil. As if evil is going to somehow diminish under secularism.

    This interview with the guy who climbed 4 stories of an apartment block to rescue a child dangling from the balcony is a reminder to us what lay at the heart of our attempt to rescue Irish children from chemical and surgical death

    Mamoudou the Magnificent and Macron

    And his feat of daring do.


    Save the Children

    You lads will co-opt/appropriate anything that sounds good to try and further the agenda eh? He didn't climb up 4 stories to save a fetus.

    This is also how Savita's face ended up on Pro-Life posters. Trying to bring this up for this topic does nothing to sway opinions, just crystallize them - against the pro-life side.


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  • #5041
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    Overheal wrote: »
    that is what Sunday school is for.

    great way to ensure the Catholic Church is severely diminished in Ireland, throw the toys out of the pram and cloister up. Have at it.

    The church is already diminished. I don't think there is really anything in it for the church for it to claim a large number of followers here yet clearly have many of them voting against the totemic teaching of the church.

    I think it's just acknowledging the reality that Catholics are a minority, of at best 30% of the population. I don't think anyone would complain if Muslims couldn't use a mosque to get married. In fact I don't really see why a non Catholic would want to get married in a church. It's fairly obvious that it's not social pressure from family anymore. It's hardly for the nice pictures?


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