The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:38PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Proposing unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks really is a classic case of using a sledge hammer to open a nut.

The collatoral damage will be the thousands of unborn who had nothing whatsoever to do with the small number of hard cases.

Its not unintentional. The hammer isnt aimed at a nut. The hammer is needed to crack the last fortress of decency in an indecent society.

Our society's long abuse of women, it's ignoring of their pain loaded the gun. Crisis pregnancies pulled the trigger. Our children are now the target.

Whatever the outcome, we deserved it.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 09:40PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Using emotive language won't alter much. Yes I do know of hard cases. It doesn't mean we should put every babys life at risk particulalry thousands and thousands who have nothing whatsoever to do with hard cases.

Have a referendum for the hard cases and legislate for them.

OK. I’ll bite with your stats and percentages.

There are circa 4,500 Irish abortions per annum. A no vote will not change that figure. The 8th amendment is failing to protect those babies/foetuses. Those unborn will never be born. There lives are no more nor no less protected regardless of the outcome of the vote. So you are not saving those babies. Vote yes, vote no, no difference. 4,500 abortions regardless.

So that means the lives you are saving, the ones you can make a difference to are the “delta” for want of a better word. That is, the difference between those that are aborted anyway, and those that you believe will be aborted in the absence of the 8th. The “floodgate” abortions (or total minus the 4,500).

I for one, I’m able to use a phone, I could order some pills now while I make a cuppa. I don’t need them but I could. Maintaining the 8th is not going to make that any harder. Likewise nor will repealing it. So, I don’t believe there will be any floodgates. This is in line with the WHO stats that explain that abortion rates go down over time after legalisation Of abortion.

So, the delta in my view, the percentage my no vote would save, would be I believe, feck all.

But let’s say the figures go up by 500, all of a sudden the hard cases aren’t 2% of the lives you save. 104 is just over 20% of 500. So, is it still worth it? Is it still worth causing those families that additional anguish?

Or 10% of 1000. Is it worth it? Or how about the figures don’t go up at all, and you were wrong about the floodgates? Then you haven’t saved anybody. The hard cases are 100% of the delta.

Look at the stats.

The WHO stats are that abortion rates go down in countries after legalisation. There is an initial increase (which is only because the illegal abortions get recorded), but then the numbers go down. Look it up.

If I’m right your no vote achieves very little and the hard cases pay the price for nothing.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:40PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

You seem to be really bitter about women and your posts read like you've been ****ed over. In the words of another poster on here let it go.

Well that's not the case, it is possible for somebody to be able to empathize with a situation without having experienced it themselves, in just the same way I'm sickened by the notion of medically required abortions being illegal.
Your comment is reductive and insulting but it doesn't surprise me, if you can't deconstruct my logic deconstruct me.

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 09:41PM

nullzero wrote: »

Too simplistic a response to take in the moral complexity of the situation.

Very common on the Yes side I've seen. Much easier to just say 'my choice' so you don't have consider what you're actually doing. Not saying that applies to everyone but it certainly does to a lot.

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:42PM

nullzero wrote: »

Look back through your posts, one line answers posted repeatedly by you and others all the way through this thread.

One line answers aren't catchphrases . Why would I need to waffle on if the point can be made in one sentence

Unless I wanted to bluster through something and not answer. Wonder who's been doing that. Keep talking till they forget you didn't actually answer.........

Spanish Eyes · 24-05-2018 09:42PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I am fundamentally coming from the point of view that unborm children deserve rights the most basic of which is the right to life except in the case of hard cases.

I don't believe women should be allowed abort their foetus's in this country and often for very spurious and shallow reasons. You also forget and I posted articles earlier that women are often pressurised into aborting by their own parents or male partners.

So no I don't believe abortion should be freely available here except for the small number of unfortunate cases mentioned. Otherwise abortion will become common place and normalised which it shouldn't be.

What do you think of those little children thrown in a sewer in Tuam who were the product of a MAN ( no consequences for him), and a woman who was probably thrown into a Magdalene laundry?

We really have to move on now and give women priority over their own bodies forever more. Command and control by the Iona and Pro Life has to stop.

To them it ends with a baby being born at any cost to the parents, but not much help after that or any agitation for those with special needs kids.

namloc1980 · 24-05-2018 09:43PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I am fundamentally coming from the point of view that unborm children deserve rights the most basic of which is the right to life except in the case of hard cases.

I don't believe women should be allowed abort their foetus's in this country and often for very spurious and shallow reasons. You also forget and I posted articles earlier that women are often pressurised into aborting by their own parents or male partners.

So no I don't believe abortion should be freely available here except for the small number of unfortunate cases mentioned. Otherwise abortion will become common place and normalised which it shouldn't be.

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions to you, if you truly believe in fixing the hard cases then only a yes vote will do that. Voting no ensures those difficult cases will continue to be exported to the UK or women will make the choice to breach the law and take illegal abortion pills.

Overheal · 24-05-2018 09:44PM

Berserker wrote: »

This kind of one line nonsense annoys me. Would you trust one of the scissor sisters?

The band? Please elaborate.

The one liner is in plenty of sufficient context that you should be able to identify the full meaning of it.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-05-2018 09:44PM

Gintonious wrote: »

Would have been a perfect analogy if he'd said that we have no need for homeless shelters here, because Irish people can go to England and use the homeless shelters there.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:44PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Very common on the Yes side I've seen. Much easier to just say 'my choice' so you don't have consider what you're actually doing. Not saying that applies to everyone but it certainly does to a lot.

It pisses me off that this referendum has been so full of rhetoric and catchphrases instead of the in depth discussion it deserves. I can see where both sides are coming from and expose myself to both sides the argument and take the time an effort to do so, and I truly believe the Yes side have their hearts in the right place it would just be nice to see that understanding to both ways.

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 09:44PM

Dressing gown wrote: »

OK. I’ll bite with your stats and percentages.

There are circa 4,500 Irish abortions per annum. A no vote will not change that figure. The 8th amendment is failing to protect those babies/foetuses. Those unborn will never be born. There lives are no more nor no less protected regardless of the outcome of the vote. So you are not saving those babies. Vote yes, vote no, no difference. 4,500 abortions regardless.

So that means the lives you are saving, the ones you can make a difference to are the “delta” for want of a better word. That is, the difference between those that are aborted anyway, and those that you believe will be aborted in the absence of the 8th. The “floodgate” abortions (or total minus the 4,500).

I for one, I’m able to use a phone, I could order some pills now while I make a cuppa. I don’t need them but I could. Maintaining the 8th is not going to make that any harder. Likewise nor will repealing it. So, I don’t believe there will be any floodgates. This is online with the WHO stats that explain that abortion rates go down over time after legalisation Of abortion.

So, the delta in my view, the percentage my no vote would save, would be I believe, feck all.

But let’s say the figures go up by 500, all of a sudden the hard cases aren’t 2% of the lives you save. 104 is just over 20% of 500. So, is it still worth it? Is it still worth causing those families that additional anguish?

Or 10% of 1000. Is it worth it? Or how about the figures don’t go up at all, and you were wrong about the floodgates? Then you haven’t saved anybody. The hard cases are 100% of the delta.

Look at the stats.

The WHO stats are that abortion rates go down in countries after legalisation. There is an initial increase (which is only because the illegal abortions get recorded), but then the numbers go down. Look it up.

If I’m right your no vote achieves very little and the hard cases pay the price for nothing.

Do let us know where you see the abortion % rate decreasing here?! http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedkingdom.html

Or here, where British midwives of all people :rolleyes: want abortion *regardless of the stage of pregnancy?!* Horrific.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:45PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Very common on the Yes side I've seen. Much easier to just say 'my choice' so you don't have consider what you're actually doing. Not saying that applies to everyone but it certainly does to a lot.

Well it certainly shouldn't be your choice. Or mine for that matter. I certainly don't want to make the choice for someone else.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:45PM

Overheal wrote: »

The band? Please elaborate.

The one liner is in plenty of sufficient context that you should be able to identify the full meaning of it.

I think we all understood what was being said.

24-05-2018 09:45PM

nullzero wrote: »

Well that's not the case, it is possible for somebody to be able to empathize with a situation without having experienced it themselves, in just the same way I'm sickened by the notion of medically required abortions being illegal.
Your comment is reductive and insulting but it doesn't surprise me.

Well actually it wasn't but sure if you just want to see things as abusive and insulting thats all your ever going to see.

dudara · 24-05-2018 09:45PM

one world order wrote: »

For all those lives without a voice, I'll be voting no tomorrow. There are tens of thousands of Irish people alive today as a result of the 8th amendment and hopefully all those people that would be born in the future under it's protection will continue to be given an opportunity to live.

The 8th right now effectively offers zero protection. Women have been guaranteed the constitutional right to travel and abortions are happening. They are happening in their thousands.

Why? Because there are women who, for any amount of reasons, do not want to be pregnant. This has been happening for millennia and to say or pretend otherwise is the literal equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and whistling Dixie. I hope that makes you happy, because it doesn’t make me happy.

We need to mature as a nation and stop being hypocritical. We need to stop exporting women and pregnancies. We need to make sure that pregnant women have choice in their healthcare.

Noo · 24-05-2018 09:45PM

one world order wrote: »

For all those lives without a voice, I'll be voting no tomorrow. There are tens of thousands of Irish people alive today as a result of the 8th amendment and hopefully all those people that would be born in the future under it's protection will continue to be given an opportunity to live.

There are also plenty of irish women dead because of it. Their babies dying anyway, their other children left without a mother, their husband with left without a wife. But at least those families are safe in the knowledge that'll people of ireland want to inflict that pain on more families.

ittakestwo · 24-05-2018 09:46PM

Predictions

Yes wins 58/42 %, An urban rural divide.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:46PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

One line answers aren't catchphrases . Why would I need to waffle on if the point can be made in one sentence

Unless I wanted to bluster through something and not answer. Wonder who's been doing that. Keep talking till they forget you didn't actually answer.........

I've answered you, in detail, look back and you'll see it. Or you can just keep saying I'm deflecting when I'm not.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:47PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

Well actually it wasn't but sure if you just want to see things as abusive and insulting thats all your ever going to see.

You were insinuating that I'm coming from a failed relationship which is a tad insulting.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 09:47PM

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Absolutely. It took 2 to tango. When 2 consenting adults have sex a baby is always likely to be conceived as no contraception is 100%. Not about men wanting to sign off on an abortion it's my son/daughter in there for god sake!!

And I don’t disagree that it’s a concern.

What I noticed is that for some No voters it’s their ONLY concern.
And they don’t talk about how the 8th can affect their sisters, mothers, wives etc.
Their concern loses a bit of credibility when the only thing theyre worried about is their lack of control over the situation.
And what’s even more ironic is that for them to have said control, the pregnant woman has to lose complete control over her own body.

I’ve seen over and over again the same ridiculous argument put forward - the one where if she doesn’t want a baby she should close her legs (and every other variation that point was made in).

Well, not to be facetious, but if men are concerned about women having abortions without their permission, maybe they should be more concerned about where they dip their wick.
They should both be held to the same standard.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 09:48PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I am fundamentally coming from the point of view that unborm children deserve rights the most basic of which is the right to life except in the case of hard cases.

I don't believe women should be allowed abort their foetus's in this country and often for very spurious and shallow reasons. You also forget and I posted articles earlier that women are often pressurised into aborting by their own parents or male partners.

So no I don't believe abortion should be freely available here except for the small number of unfortunate cases mentioned. Otherwise abortion will become common place and normalised which it shouldn't be.

The unborn don’t need constitutional protection. As long as there are women the right to life of the unborn will be protected by them.

As I said before, I was a textbook example of what should have been one of those “social abortions”. Single, career oriented, partying every weekend, unplanned pregnancy. I had absolutely ZERO intentions of getting pregnant, but it happened despite using contraception. And abortion never even crossed my mind. Not once. Not even when daddy said he wasn’t exactly enthused about it. Not even though financially that trip wouldn’t have been an issue for me. And I’m not in the minority of women who think that way!

gmisk · 24-05-2018 09:48PM

ittakestwo wrote: »

Predictions

Yes wins 58/42 %, An urban rural divide.

Would be surprised I said 55 45 I think it could be tighter, all about the turn out!

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:48PM

nullzero wrote: »

I've answered you, in detail, look back and you'll see it. Or you can just keep saying I'm deflecting when I'm not.

Well if I missed it it should only take a second to repost it and I'll see it. The thread is moving quite fast.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:49PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Well if I missed it it should only take a second to repost it and I'll see it. The thread is moving quite fast.

Go look, you're a big boy.

Good to know you're not keeping up with the discussion before posting.

pleas advice · 24-05-2018 09:49PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Would have been a perfect analogy if he'd said that we have no need for homeless shelters here, because Irish people can go to England and use the homeless shelters there.

its a ridiculous analogy, either way

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 09:49PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I am fundamentally coming from the point of view that unborm children deserve rights the most basic of which is the right to life except in the case of hard cases.

I don't believe women should be allowed abort their foetus's in this country and often for very spurious and shallow reasons. You also forget and I posted articles earlier that women are often pressurised into aborting by their own parents or male partners.

So no I don't believe abortion should be freely available here except for the small number of unfortunate cases mentioned. Otherwise abortion will become common place and normalised which it shouldn't be.

So you prefer to let woman travel abroad to get their required treatment?

Why do people think it's OK for Ireland to be the only country in Western Europe to outlaw abortion?

Why are all those other countries wrong and we're right?

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:50PM

nullzero wrote: »

Go look, you're a big boy.

Good to know you're not keeping up with the discussion before posting.

Figured as much.......

Nettle Soup · 24-05-2018 09:51PM

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:51PM

murpho999 wrote: »

So you prefer to let woman travel abroad to get their required treatment?

Why do people think it's OK for Ireland to be the only country in Western Europe to outlaw abortion?

Why are all those other countries wrong and we're right?

We shouldn't outlaw abortion, I think there is a considerable cohort like me who want to repeal the eight but not introduce so called abortion on demand.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:52PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Figured as much.......

Seriously, go look for yourself, I'm not lying to you, I'm posting in reply to more people than just you. Again you're a big boy do your own reading.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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