The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

gctest50 · 24-05-2018 04:35PM

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I think it's interesting that Stalin outlawed abortion in the Soviet Union. Who knew that Stalin was so pro-life.
Maybe all these NO campaigners are closet Stalinists who are agitating to create a Stalin Revolution in Ireland.
The NO slogan could be...
"Stalin loves both woman & child & he loves you very much: and he sees all" -
I think it's catchy.

For that, the Nazis had an Institute :

Reichszentrale zur Bekämpfung der Homosexualität und der Abtreibung

hometruths · 24-05-2018 04:37PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The doctor is under no obligation to provide the prescription. The same as with any other medical treatment.

Really? In the proposed legislation, on what grounds can a doctor refuse to provide approval for an abortion up t0 12 weeks?

retro:electro · 24-05-2018 04:37PM

deejer wrote: »

It certainly is a complex issue. And I understand the point that you are making. I am just saying that I value the life of that foetus equally. Not more not less.

It is not equal or fair to let a fetus who has no viability outside of the womb, risk the life of the mother carrying it to such an extent that she has to be riddled with sepsis before medicine can intervene and hopefully save her.

gmisk · 24-05-2018 04:39PM

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Good stuff

No worries

I am voting first thing then off to Belfast to biggest weekend so I will be dancing about on Friday and then dancing about (with added constant phone checking) on Saturday

Vlad Kelly · 24-05-2018 04:40PM

Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote: »

Mod: Aaaand on that note, don't post in this thread again

Shut up!

uptherebels · 24-05-2018 04:44PM

schmittel wrote: »

Really? In the proposed legislation, on what grounds can a doctor refuse to provide approval for an abortion up t0 12 weeks?

Conscientious grounds. No doctor will be forced to part in abortions

Trasna1 · 24-05-2018 04:44PM

gmisk wrote: »

Its interesting you said that.
Because my memory of it was the big arguments and the majority posters from the No side were around a child needing a mum and dad, gay adoption etc. So you essentially saying that was all a non event?

I can't really recall the full details of the No campaign at that time but there was indeed an element of mudding the waters around adoption by them but as I said most voters saw through that correctly as being off the table or not an issue worth considering.

I wouldn't dismiss the result as a non event. The result was extremely important to the people it effected. It signaled that a tipping point of change had passed in Irish society, the old guard was on the way out. If SSM hadn't passed we wouldn't be voting tomorrow.

freshpopcorn · 24-05-2018 04:45PM

BabysCoffee wrote: »

What time does the count start at?

RTE are on from 9am. A few places will be counted early enough!

dark crystal · 24-05-2018 04:46PM

schmittel wrote: »

Just popping in to add my 2cents worth for whatever its worth. Male, early 40s, married, 2 daughters.

After thinking about it long and hard, reading and listening to arguments on both sides, I have decided to vote NO tomorrow.

When it was first clear we would have a referendum on the 8th I didn't give it a lot of though beyond assuming I would support it on the grounds that I strongly believe the law as it stands needs reform and I am a believer in individual choice and free will.

When I saw the wording of the proposed amendment, it gave me pause for thought, as I thought it was pretty broad, a blank cheque to use the phrase bandied about.

What really made me question my vote was the Governments proposed legislation which clearly and unequivocally provides for totally unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks. I am absolutely fine with the rest of legislation, it is just Head 4 I have the problem with.

No matter how much I think we need to be able to deal with the hard cases, I am not prepared to support a proposal that essentially allows greater access to abortion than some forms of contraception.

I think the government have made a balls of this and a referendum that ought to have carried fairly comfortably will turn out to be a nail biter.

Luckily for you, you will never experience a crisis pregnancy. Voting No won't affect you or you body in any way.

It might, however, affect one of your daughters one day. Taking away the 'hard case' aspects, which are heartbreaking, there seems to be a certain reluctance on the YES side to tackle the view on the NO side of so called 'social' abortions as if they're somehow not hard cases in themselves.

I know two women who had 'social' abortions. They weren't carrying a foetus with a FFA, nor were they raped. They were young and made a mistake. It was a mistake they were not equipped to deal with financially or emotionally. Having a child is a huge commitment and one which will affect your entire life for the rest of your life. Some people can handle that commitment, others most certainly can not. I know people who shouldn't own a goldfish, let alone a child but own them they do. The women I know didn't have abortions to fit into a nice dress or to skip off on a sun holiday, they did it because they were scared sh!tless and knew they were incapable of taking on such a momentous commitment for the rest of their lives. They thought long and hard about their options and cried tears about their decision, but they moved on with their lives and are now happy, healthy and at peace with the decisions they made back when they were young and made those mistakes.

You will never know the paralysing fear of finding yourself young, pregnant and unable to cope with a child. You will never find yourself in an abusive relationship with four kids already and another one on the way and wondering how you will get through the next day, never mind the next nine months knowing exactly what's in store for you and your children. You will never know the misery of not being able to afford rent, but trying to find the money to raise another human being without a partner to help and support you, so you order a pill off the internet and take it alone, not knowing whether it may kill you or not.

You will never face a crisis pregnancy, but your daughters might. Please just think about that before you condemn them and countless others like them to scenarios like these for years to come.

hometruths · 24-05-2018 04:46PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

With all due respect, that’s not what you’re voting no to tomorrow. When you vote no you’ll be saying that you want absolutely no debate on the proposed legislation and to leave the 8th untouched. Meaning that those cases you say are acceptable will stay in the exact same situation they are currently in. There will be no scope for change if it’s a no vote tomorrow.

I get that literally the vote is on the precise wording of the amendment - yes or no. But it is naive to believe that the vote is in no way an endorsement or rejection of the proposed legislation.

The reason I am voting no is specifically to reject that, and one way or another my vote will be interpreted as such.

freshpopcorn · 24-05-2018 04:46PM

I see this guy on Twiiter posting a lot. His name is Damïeñ Múlley. Anybody know who he is?

gmisk · 24-05-2018 04:48PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

I can't really recall the full details of the No campaign at that time but there was indeed an element of mudding the waters around adoption by them but as I said most voters saw through that correctly as being off the table or not an issue worth considering.

I wouldn't dismiss the result as a non event. The result was extremely important to the people it effected. It signaled that a tipping point of change had passed in Irish society, the old guard was on the way out. If SSM hadn't passed we wouldn't be voting tomorrow.

Thanks for that reply very interesting insights.
I hadnt really thought of any link between SSM and this referendum but you might be right, maybe the fact thar SSM passed fairly comfortably indicated to government that Ireland was ready for other changes.

BabysCoffee · 24-05-2018 04:51PM

gmisk wrote:

I am voting first thing then off to Belfast to biggest weekend so I will be dancing about on Friday and then dancing about (with added constant phone checking) on Saturday

I'm boarding the first of two flights to get home to vote. I cut a holiday short to make sure I cast my vote. Catch you all on the flipside tomorrow about 10am!

hometruths · 24-05-2018 04:52PM

dark crystal wrote: »

Luckily for you, you will never experience a crisis pregnancy. Voting No won't affect you or you body in any way.

It might, however, affect one of your daughters one day. Taking away the 'hard case' aspects, which are heartbreaking, there seems to be a certain reluctance on the YES side to tackle the view on the NO side of so called 'social' abortions as if they're somehow not hard cases in themselves.

I know two women who had 'social' abortions. They weren't carrying a foetus with a FFA, nor were they raped. They were young and made a mistake. It was a mistake they were not equipped to deal with financially or emotionally. Having a child is a huge commitment and one which will affect your entire life for the rest of your life. Some people can handle that commitment, others most certainly can not. I know people who shouldn't own a goldfish, let alone a child but own them they do. The women I know didn't have abortions to fit into a nice dress or to skip off on a sun holiday, they did it because they were scared and knew they were incapable of taking on such a momentous commitment for the rest of their lives. They thought long and hard about their options and cried tears about their decision, but they moved on with their lives and are now happy, healthy and at peace with the decisions they made back when they were young and made those mistakes.

You will never know the paralysing fear of finding yourself young, pregnant and unable to cope with a child. You will never find yourself in an abusive relationship with four kids already and another one on the way and wondering how you will get through the next day, never mind the next nine months knowing exactly what's in store for you and your children. You will never know the misery of not being able to afford rent, but trying to find the money to raise another human being without a partner to help and support you, so you order a pill off the internet and take it alone, not knowing whether it may kill you or not.

You will never face a crisis pregnancy, but your daughters might. Please just think about that before you condemn them and countless others like them to scenarios like these for years to come.

I know one woman who had 'social' abortion. She was not carrying a foetus with a FFA, nor were they raped.

She was in a relationship. With me. We were young and made a mistake.

Please don't presume to know what experience or knowledge of abortion I have, or how it may never impact me.

igCorcaigh · 24-05-2018 04:52PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I see this guy on Twiiter posting a lot. His name is Damïeñ Múlley. Anybody know who he is?

Damien lives in Cork, social media/marketing consultant I think.

uptherebels · 24-05-2018 04:54PM

schmittel wrote: »

I get that literally the vote is on the precise wording of the amendment - yes or no. But it is naive to believe that the vote is in no way an endorsement or rejection of the proposed legislation.

The reason I am voting no is specifically to reject that, and one way or another my vote will be interpreted as such.

Because some people are voting no and will always vote no regardless of any proposed legislation. And considering that the no side offer no alternative ideas other than saying that the government can do better, it's had to see a no as anything as no abortion fullstop

RollieFingers · 24-05-2018 04:54PM

Not normally one for political debates, voting, referendums etc., but if you don’t get out tomorrow and vote you’re a waste man, do the right thing and show compassion and support to the women of Ireland, repeal the 8th

Trasna1 · 24-05-2018 04:54PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

With all due respect, that’s not what you’re voting no to tomorrow. When you vote no you’ll be saying that you want absolutely no debate on the proposed legislation and to leave the 8th untouched. Meaning that those cases you say are acceptable will stay in the exact same situation they are currently in. There will be no scope for change if it’s a no vote tomorrow.

Indeed but if the vote passes the government can, with some authority say that the people knew what they were voting for and that the mandate is for the proposed bill to be enacted with only minor technical amendment.

In the event of a No vote, we will be certainly be voting again on the 8th in the next Dail with a watered down proposal. 40.3.3 isn't tenable as it stands at the moment, no matter what way you look at it.

For someone who agrees that hard cases need to be dealt with but that the proposal goes too far, it is indeed a tough decision.

retro:electro · 24-05-2018 04:54PM

dark crystal wrote: »

Luckily for you, you will never experience a crisis pregnancy. Voting No won't affect you or you body in any way.

It might, however, affect one of your daughters one day. Taking away the 'hard case' aspects, which are heartbreaking, there seems to be a certain reluctance on the YES side to tackle the view on the NO side of so called 'social' abortions as if they're somehow not hard cases in themselves.

I know two women who had 'social' abortions. They weren't carrying a foetus with a FFA, nor were they raped. They were young and made a mistake. It was a mistake they were not equipped to deal with financially or emotionally. Having a child is a huge commitment and one which will affect your entire life for the rest of your life. Some people can handle that commitment, others most certainly can not. I know people who shouldn't own a goldfish, let alone a child but own them they do. The women I know didn't have abortions to fit into a nice dress or to skip off on a sun holiday, they did it because they were scared sh!tless and knew they were incapable of taking on such a momentous commitment for the rest of their lives. They thought long and hard about their options and cried tears about their decision, but they moved on with their lives and are now happy, healthy and at peace with the decisions they made back when they were young and made those mistakes.

You will never know the paralysing fear of finding yourself young, pregnant and unable to cope with a child. You will never find yourself in an abusive relationship with four kids already and another one on the way and wondering how you will get through the next day, never mind the next nine months knowing exactly what's in store for you and your children. You will never know the misery of not being able to afford rent, but trying to find the money to raise another human being without a partner to help and support you, so you order a pill off the internet and take it alone, not knowing whether it may kill you or not.

You will never face a crisis pregnancy, but your daughters might. Please just think about that before you condemn them and countless others like them to scenarios like these for years to come.

Post of the thread if you ask me.

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 04:55PM

My very politically active father was all set to vote no. He told me earlier that he has been so disgusted by the no campaign that he is considering abstaining. I was pretty shocked!

gmisk · 24-05-2018 04:55PM

BabysCoffee wrote: »

I'm boarding the first of two flights to get home to vote. I cut a holiday short to make sure I cast my vote. Catch you all on the flipside tomorrow about 10am!

Fair play sounds like a trek

Have a safe trip!
#hometovote

ArmaniJeanss · 24-05-2018 04:56PM

schmittel wrote: »

I get that literally the vote is on the precise wording of the amendment - yes or no. But it is naive to believe that the vote is in no way an endorsement or rejection of the proposed legislation.

The reason I am voting no is specifically to reject that, and one way or another my vote will be interpreted as such.

Vote Yes, and then fight for the correct legislation, whether it'd be this governments legislation or the next one.
There's no-one here pro-abortion, we just recognize that the 8th has to go. Don't help leave it in place for another 35 years.
The 8th is permanent, rigid, and cruel. Legislation won't be perfect but it will always be flexible and can make some attempt at equanimity.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 04:56PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

97% of abortions in the UK are on healthy unborn babies.
If you think a similar regime occurring here is something to celebrate I actually feel sorry for you.
Again like all the Yes side at this stage you fail to understand that the vast majority of No voters (A) have nothing to do with the Iona Institute and anyone who says otherwise is a liar and (B) want to legislate for the small number of cases such as FFA, rape, incest, etc but are not comfortable with abortion on demand to everyone up to 12 weeks including babies with no abnormalities or were not the result of rape or incest.

As for the figure of 2 women a week going to the UK for abortion for FFA reasons, this contrasts with something like 60 other women who travel a week. So less than 2% of cases are for FFA.

So in summary the vast majority of abortions in the UK have nothing whatsoever to do with FFA, rape, incest, etc. And yet this is what the Yes side seize on as justification.

Stop exploiting a small number of unfortunate cases to justify abortion on demand for everyone. And stop telling blatant lies that everyone on the No side is against abortion for women in certain circumstances.

I really don’t get the constant harping back to percentages. 2 families a week going through this is A LOT. Too many for me. That’s 104 a year. Or 3,500 odd over 35 years. That is not a small number of unfortunate cases. If the population of Ireland were 10 fold, or a hundred fold, the percentage would still be 2%. They are not a percentage. They are real people.

pitifulgod · 24-05-2018 04:56PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

My very politically active father was all set to vote no. He told me earlier that he has been so disgusted by the no campaign that he is considering abstaining. I was pretty shocked!

The no campaigned hardened my mother's yes.

ArmaniJeanss · 24-05-2018 04:58PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

My very politically active father was all set to vote no. He told me earlier that he has been so disgusted by the no campaign that he is considering abstaining. I was pretty shocked!

And your brother ? (I think you mentioned he was a No).
I found it curious when you mentioned it, I thought the health issues you'd had might be the sort of thing which would make a brother actually realise the issues involved?

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 04:58PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well for once give us facts and stats. How many aborted are healthy? How many are the result of rape? Or FFA?

Stats would help.

Removing the 8th will make abortion on demand here. It will make it as relatively easy as going to your GP.

Once that happens, where does it stop?

First true thing that you said on this thread and that's way I'm voting Yes.

Why shouldn't it be that way?

Why should they have to travel abroad for it?
Why should they have to prove somehow they have been raped?

Why should it be down to proving a mother is suicidal?

It'll be great that adult woman will have their own choice to make without more stress or worries. I want our country to look after our problems not export them.

Once that happens, where does it stop?"

What do you mean by this?
Where does what stop?

Do you think we'll have compulsory abortions? What exactly are you afraid of?

People who want children will simply have them.

Those who have crisis pregnancies will have the option to abort in a safe and less stressful way then the No campaign propose (although they're not actually proposing anything).

I'm happy to vote yes to allow adults make their own choices about their own bodies and trust their decisions.

Irrational fears of society ending as we know it etc won't wash with me and is not a reason to vote no.

gmisk · 24-05-2018 04:59PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

My very politically active father was all set to vote no. He told me earlier that he has been so disgusted by the no campaign that he is considering abstaining. I was pretty shocked!

Can I ask what pushed him over the edge (possibly)?

It seems like Ronan Mullen has pissed off a lot of undecideds with his comments on Pat Kenny (understandably imo)

hometruths · 24-05-2018 05:00PM

uptherebels wrote: »

Conscientious grounds. No doctor will be forced to part in abortions

Really, I thought doctors were not allowed to refuse treatment on moral grounds. Do you have a source link? Not doubting what you say, just genuinely interested to see that.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 05:00PM

schmittel wrote: »

I get that literally the vote is on the precise wording of the amendment - yes or no. But it is naive to believe that the vote is in no way an endorsement or rejection of the proposed legislation.

The reason I am voting no is specifically to reject that, and one way or another my vote will be interpreted as such.

It’s fine to reject the current proposal. Get out and campaign your ass off to have it altered before it gets signed into law. But voting no means absolute nothing can change.

I honestly hope, and I’m being genuine here as I’ve said the same to my own father, that this never comes back to knock on your door.

gmisk · 24-05-2018 05:03PM

murpho999 wrote: »

Irrational fears of society ending as we know it etc won't wash with me and is not a reason to vote no.

I totally agree.
Society didn't collapse in Ireland after the SSM vote if anything I think it changed it for the better, I certainly felt more happy to discuss my partner etc to people in work and in general.

It won't if we decide to repeal the 8th and help Irish woman when they need it in this blooming island instead of forcing them to travel to another country.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Comments