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The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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Comments

  • #4922
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pleas advice wrote: »
    I'd put the line of when life begins (or, when a pregnancy begins, at least) at implantation,

    How did you pick this particular time? Why not fertilisation?


  • #4923
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you should try paying attention

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107084545&postcount=4839

    And so should you.
    A poster said if abortion was freely available throughout history most of the "bad guys" could be removed.
    I responded that it was a pointless argument.
    Its irrelevant who said it, its a nonsense argument.


  • #4924
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    If it was only about victims of rape I would vote Yes myself.
    Its not though.
    The proposals which a majority in the Dail back or appear to back is unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks. Remove this particular proposal and the Yes side would win easily.
    Sorry but there is NO way to allow rape victims adequate access to terminations as soon as possible without re-traumatising them without the 12-week proposal.

    That was the conclusion of the Oireachtas Committee that examined the issue.

    So it is EXACTLY to accommodate rape victims that the 12-week proposal is there.


  • #4925
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    spookwoman wrote: »
    There is no way to prove someone was raped!

    Numerous posts from you that don't make much sense.
    Medical experts can form an opinion on careful examination if they believe someone was raped or not.

    The rape issue should be left to the medical experts, otherwise you have women coming in claiming to be raped when they weren't.

    Again removing the constitutional protection from EVERY unborn child to deal with a tiny minority of cases is frankly crazy and irrational, but given the recent history of our political class hardly surprising.

    Never trust politicians is my advice.


  • #4926
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,316 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    My prediction is still what it was weeks ago: 55% turnout, 55-45 win for Yes, with an outside chance that No squeaks a 50.1-49.9 win.

    But I now see a chance that there will instead be a really high turnout - the 13th/14th got 68%.

    If it is 70%, it could be a really crushing win for Yes - 65-35.

    That's a big spread you've got there with the 55-70% turnout. Personally I think your first prediction will be nearer the mark. The SSM ref got 61% turnout and I think it will be lower than that. There were very few undecideds in the lead up to SSM, approx 10%. It's nearly double that for the 8th. Just over 50% would be my call with regards turnout.

    I think the decision is going to be incredibly tight.


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  • #4927
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    That would be Supreme Leader Ganley and his pals, but they are gaining zero traction thanks to our mole McGuirk in their ranks.

    The major concern though is that they're clearly trying to recruit people to the idea of "reality doesn't matter and neither do facts, and it's not a lie if you can convince others and yourself" which has been rife through the entire no campaign and has definitely taken a fair bit of a grip. They have a much clearer roadmap to achieve this having cracked it for brexit and Trump, and I expect Ireland now that the UK has gone from the EU (essentially), to be a key target at this point.

    We are generally quite good at ignoring this as a whole, but there is no doubting that this referendum has seen all new heights here when it comes to flat out denying reality when it's inconvenient. I fully expect then to try and continue to gain traction over this in the coming years and make it continue to be a wedge issue.


  • #4928
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Numerous posts from you that don't make much sense.
    Medical experts can form an opinion on careful examination if they believe someone was raped or not.

    The rape issue should be left to the medical experts, otherwise you have women coming in claiming to be raped when they weren't.

    You have not a ****ing clue what you're talking about.


  • #4929
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Macha wrote: »
    Sorry but there is NO way to allow rape victims adequate access to terminations as soon as possible without re-traumatising them without the 12-week proposal.

    That was the conclusion of the Oireachtas Committee that examined the issue.

    So it is EXACTLY to accommodate rape victims that the 12-week proposal is there.

    Ok with allowing abortion for rape victims who have been examined as part of a rape investigation which they are already.
    Not ok with allowing abortion to any woman who comes in and lies and may even accuse someone in the wrong of rape just so she can have an abortion. And accusing someone in the wrong of rape does happen.


  • #4930
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,119 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Numerous posts from you that don't make much sense.
    Medical experts can form an opinion on careful examination if they believe someone was raped or not.

    The rape issue should be left to the medical experts, otherwise you have women coming in claiming to be raped when they weren't.

    Again removing the constitutional protection from EVERY unborn child to deal with a tiny minority of cases is frankly crazy and irrational, but given the recent history of our political class hardly surprising.

    Never trust politicians is my advice.
    Opinion is not an exact Yes or No and not all women are going to report their rapes. We keep going over this again and again and again. Rape is hard to prove and only 8% are convicted out of the tiny number that go to court.
    How are these women supposed to prove they were raped

    Seems its now the politician fault.....


  • #4931
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Jonas Tangy Pantry wrote: »
    You have not a ****ing clue what you're talking about.

    Either come up with a more mature and substantial post or say hello to ignore.


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  • #4932
    Mrhuth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 182 ✭✭Mrhuth


    So when will the results be out? Everyone talking about when to vote but what about results? Can't wait.


  • #4933
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Ok with allowing abortion for rape victims who have been examined as part of a rape investigation which they are already.
    Not ok with allowing abortion to any woman who comes in and lies and may even accuse someone in the wrong of rape just so she can have an abortion. And accusing someone in the wrong of rape does happen.

    So now it's abortion for SOME rape survivors?


  • #4934
    optogirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,081 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Ok with allowing abortion for rape victims who have been examined as part of a rape investigation which they are already.
    Not ok with allowing abortion to any woman who comes in and lies and may even accuse someone in the wrong of rape just so she can have an abortion. And accusing someone in the wrong of rape does happen.

    Which is why the recommendation is for 12 weeks without having to prove anything


  • #4935
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    spookwoman wrote: »
    Opinion is not an exact Yes or No and not all women are going to report their rapes. We keep going over this again and again and again. Rape is hard to prove and only 8% are convicted out of the tiny number that go to court.
    How are these women supposed to prove they were raped

    They report it to gardai.
    They submit to a medical assessment.
    The medical assessor along with a second doctor forms an opinion if there was a genuine case of rape or not.
    As first recourse they are given early abortion pill, supervised medically, also the option of morning after pill and finally abortion.

    But no to abortion to some clown who walks in off the street, wastes everyone's time, wrongly claims rape or wrongly accuses someone of rape. Zero time for people like that.


  • #4936
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Ok with allowing abortion for rape victims who have been examined as part of a rape investigation which they are already.
    Not ok with allowing abortion to any woman who comes in and lies and may even accuse someone in the wrong of rape just so she can have an abortion. And accusing someone in the wrong of rape does happen.

    So what you are saying is that a traumatised rape victim has to suffer further trauma & humiliation, report a crime they may not be ready to report & undergo a physical examination, so they can PROVE they have been raped? Then they may be allowed a termination?

    Can you see any problem with that? Have you any idea how you personally might feel after being raped or sexually assaulted?
    Some compassion for victims wouldn't go astray here........


  • #4937
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,339 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    We Sold Children to Bloody Australia and America once. This country has a rotten past even though its high majority are great people.

    Tomorrow we give a chance to give people a Choice and to make it a better world for everyone involved.

    EVENFLOW



  • #4938
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,168 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Numerous posts from you that don't make much sense.
    Medical experts can form an opinion on careful examination if they believe someone was raped or not.

    The rape issue should be left to the medical experts, otherwise you have women coming in claiming to be raped when they weren't.

    Again removing the constitutional protection from EVERY unborn child to deal with a tiny minority of cases is frankly crazy and irrational, but given the recent history of our political class hardly surprising.

    Never trust politicians is my advice.

    How exactly does a doctor determine that the woman did not consent?


  • #4939
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Numerous posts from you that don't make much sense.
    Medical experts can form an opinion on careful examination if they believe someone was raped or not.

    Which forces a raped woman to subject herself to an invasive examination, one which is not guaranteed to be conclusive. The defining characteristic of rape is the absence of consent. There is no test for that.

    This was all thoroughly discussed. None of your ideas are remotely novel or workable.
    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    The rape issue should be left to the medical experts, otherwise you have women coming in claiming to be raped when they weren't.

    Not if you don't demand a reason before 12 weeks. That's part of the point.


  • #4940
    optogirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,081 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    They report it to gardai.
    They submit to a medical assessment.
    The medical assessor along with a second doctor forms an opinion if there was a genuine case of rape or not.
    As first recourse they are given early abortion pill, supervised medically, also the option of morning after pill and finally abortion.

    But no to abortion to some clown who walks in off the street, wastes everyone's time, wrongly claims rape or wrongly accuses someone of rape. Zero time for people like that.

    Yet you feel they should be parents


  • #4941
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Ok with allowing abortion for rape victims who have been examined as part of a rape investigation which they are already.
    Not ok with allowing abortion to any woman who comes in and lies and may even accuse someone in the wrong of rape just so she can have an abortion. And accusing someone in the wrong of rape does happen.

    With the 12 week unrestricted nobody has to lie about their reason (and they have a reason believe me) for wanting an abortion. Rape victims won't have to report their rape if they can't/are too traumatised to report it.


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  • #4942
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Jonas Tangy Pantry wrote: »
    So now it's abortion for SOME rape survivors?

    I said abortion for all rape survivors. But not for lying idiots who falsely claim rape just so they can get a handy abortion.

    Again rape is a tiny minority and I have the greatest sympathy for rape victims.

    But putting an over-whelming majority of unborn babies at risk is not the answer.


  • #4943
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    They report it to gardai.
    They submit to a medical assessment.
    The medical assessor along with a second doctor forms an opinion if there was a genuine case of rape or not.
    As first recourse they are given early abortion pill, supervised medically, also the option of morning after pill and finally abortion.

    But no to abortion to some clown who walks in off the street, wastes everyone's time, wrongly claims rape or wrongly accuses someone of rape. Zero time for people like that.

    So we're back to the rape committee idea. If this line of thinking wasn't so serious and dangerous, it would be funny.


  • #4944
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    G.Leech wrote: »
    Did you know that Cristiano Ronaldo’s mother wanted to abort him?

    And in the end, she chose not to.

    Not every child turns into a Cristiano Ronaldo. Some children turn into someone like my brother, who abused me for years as a child.


  • #4945
    fergus1001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭fergus1001


    California-Cheeseburger-Screenshot.jpg

    Iona institute depiction of the aftermath of a yes vote


  • #4946
    Larbre34
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,094 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Mrhuth wrote: »
    So when will the results be out? Everyone talking about when to vote but what about results? Can't wait.

    Compared to an election, its mercifully quick. There'll be a clear picture from tallies by about 11am on Saturday (or earlier) , the various count centres will begin declaring from just after lunch and there will be a national declaration from the Returning Officer of the Dept at Dublin Castle sometime in the afternoon.

    The only potential delay will be if numbers are tight in certain counts and one side or other asks for rechecks of spoiled votes. However, if the national picture is looking decisive, tiny numbers locally wont matter and it will all be over sooner.


  • #4947
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,119 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    They report it to gardai.
    They submit to a medical assessment.
    The medical assessor along with a second doctor forms an opinion if there was a genuine case of rape or not.
    As first recourse they are given early abortion pill, supervised medically, also the option of morning after pill and finally abortion.

    But no to abortion to some clown who walks in off the street, wastes everyone's time, wrongly claims rape or wrongly accuses someone of rape. Zero time for people like that.

    Do you have a short term memory problem?
    We keep saying why the 12 weeks is a possible option,
    we keep saying why its there for rape victims
    We keep saying not all rape victims come forward
    We keep explaining how the morning after pill works. etc etc etc
    If you don't have a new excuse for no then please don't post the same excuses over and over and over again.


  • #4948
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    I said abortion for all rape survivors. But not for lying idiots who falsely claim rape just so they can get a handy abortion.

    Under the current proposal, nobody has an incentive to lie. They do under your proposal though.


  • #4949
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    I said abortion for all rape survivors. But not for lying idiots who falsely claim rape just so they can get a handy abortion.

    Again rape is a tiny minority and I have the greatest sympathy for rape victims.

    But putting an over-whelming majority of unborn babies at risk is not the answer.

    I'm sorry but its really coming across that you have a severe mistrust of women in general, not sure if thats your intention but its clear you do.

    How do you feel about the 13th and 14th amendments?


  • #4950
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    January wrote: »
    With the 12 week unrestricted nobody has to lie about their reason (and they have a reason believe me) for wanting an abortion. Rape victims won't have to report their rape if they can't/are too traumatised to report it.

    Again January, pregnant rape victims are a tiny minority of pregnant women.
    I wish someone had stats on this by the way.
    Help should be given including abortion if requested for rape victims. But stripping rights for all unborn is not the best option and is a dangerous move imo.

    This is my last post on this as I have to do a bit of work and those bills won't pay themselves.

    People know where I stand, if they don't read back my posts.

    I wish everyone luck tomorrow, make sure to vote one way or the other.


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  • #4951
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Either come up with a more mature and substantial post or say hello to ignore.

    Explain to me how medical experts determine with careful examination if someone's been raped?

    If, and its a big ****ing if, someone reports a rape immediately, the SATU process can gather information like vaginal tearing or bruising, defensive wounds, damage to clothing, DNA evidence like semen, blood, saliva from the alleged rapist. That information may be useful in a court case, but by no means guarantees a conviction. None of that might be present, even though a rape occured and goes on to result in conviction.

    As far as I can see, you've absolutely no idea about the process, common behaviour of survivors, best practice in treatment. No clue what you're talking about.

    I'm absolutely grand with being ignored by someone who's big hearted enough to grudgingly allow abortion to women who are beaten black and blue.


This discussion has been closed.
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