The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 09:31AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the craic with the "trust women" slogan on yes posters? I think its a bit of a strawman argument. The no side is not saying they don't trust women.

"Social abortion".

They do not trust, quite the opposite.

Movementarian · 24-05-2018 09:32AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Its the impact on the baby rather than society that sits uppermost in a No mind.

Is there a wealth of information out there about that.

Assuming you're not inclined to limit your understanding of what constitutes a human being to how many neurons its brain has managed to drum up, that is.

So presumably you are against the right to travel? Presume you are down the airport/port every other weekend protesting the women travelling? Presume you are for locking them up when they return? This all impacts the baby if thats your core argument. Or are you one of the many who is suddenly against it all now that the reality is in your face?

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 09:34AM

DOS wrote: »

The vote may be lost. We don't know. The argument will never be lost as long as humans continue to recognise the right to life of the unborn.

The core pro-life families, the Sherlocks, the Ascoughs and their tight connections will continue to blather on about the issue, using Iona and the like to cover the fact that they are speaking for the Bishops who are now too toxic to speak for themselves, but based on referenda like divorce and same-sex marriage, once this is finally won, the losers will mostly just disappear.

And the sky will not fall, society will not collapse, the American loonies will put away their chequebooks and the whole matter will fade from the public spotlight.

It'll be a private matter between a woman and her doctor, the end.

Billy86 · 24-05-2018 09:34AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Take warning images off tobacco products so.

If I'm correct, plain box packaging (e.g. All brands in the same generic looking black/grey box, just with different names on the front - all in the same font) has proven a good bit more effective.

If anything, sight of the warning images like the woman late on in cancer on the front of the pack of me makes me, as a smoker, probably more likely to smoke. Why? When smokers see that they feel bad. When smokers feel bad, they fall back on nicotine. The Aussies actually had a great ad based in this notion when I lived over there based off of positive messaging, "every cigarette you dont smoke is making you better" basically, that outlined when tobacco substances leave your system, when your respiratory system returns back near normal when you can expect to stop getting cravings, etc.

Maybe the no side should take a leaf out of their book?

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:35AM

bnt wrote: »

I'm from the UK and so not entitled to vote, but it's not as if I've been unable to avoid the debates. The most annoying thing to me has the been the unwillingness of the No side in particular to acknowledge that Ireland is one of the last Western countries to face the abortion question. There is a wealth of data out there about the impact of legalised abortion on society. I don't know whether it's wilful ignorance, but we're over 50 years in to the sexual revolution and it's the most "liberal" societies that have the better overall outcomes.

It's perfectly normal and OK to be against abortion on a personal level - that's your right, and it's your behaviour to control. The No side are going beyond that personal mandate and saying "we know what's best for you" based on moralistic ideology, not on evidence - since the evidence points in the other direction.

You do realise too that Ireland was the last western country to succumb to the dark ages? In fact, it didnt succumb.

This 'get modern' way of thinking is a lazy way to view things. It's mere keeping up with the Jones

What was that sig? The one about him who doent learn from his mistakes is bound to repeat them?

NuMarvel · 24-05-2018 09:35AM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Fine Gael for all their failings actually showed a lot of courage in publishing the draft bill before the referendum. It was a risk.

The publication of the bill was more necessity than courage. It put a framework on the discussion and made it easier to counter No side exaggerations. Without it, their arguments could have gained a lot more traction.

I will give FG, and the independents in government, credit for the content of the bill though. They could have taken the easy road and said they'd limit changes to the exceptional cases. But they took the opportunity to propose a modernistation of our laws, and to bring us in line with the majority of Europe. I disagree with them on a vast number of things, but I have to recognise when they're doing good as well.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 09:36AM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

"Social abortion".

They do not trust, quite the opposite.

I find it insulting that I can’t be trusted to not terminate a pregnancy, despite the fact that when I had an unplanned pregnancy I chose to continue with it when I had easy access to abortion.

Brego888 · 24-05-2018 09:37AM

I can't wait for this to be over.
It's a horrible thing we are being asked to vote on. There are no winners here. Either a yes or no outcome results in people losing.

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 09:38AM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Just checked on twitter and Ronan Mullen is trending an hour and a half after pat Kennys show ended. That remark he made has backfired badly on him and the NO campaign.

There was a fuss a few years back, a group of women who'd had a FFA were speaking to the Oireachteas, and Mullen slimed up to one of their husbands and commented that the group obviously had another agenda.

He was suggesting that the women were only telling these stories as part of the conspiracy to bring in the dreaded "abortion on demand".

Creep.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 09:38AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

You do realise too that Ireland was the last western country to succumb to the dark ages? In fact, it didnt succumb.

This 'get modern' way of thinking is a lazy way to view things. It's mere keeping up with the Jones

What was that sig? The one about him who doent learn from his mistakes is bound to repeat them?

that is not a reason to remain there when everybody else has left that behind.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:38AM

Movementarian wrote: »

So presumably you are against the right to travel? Presume you are down the airport/port every other weekend protesting the women travelling? Presume you are for locking them up when they return? This all impacts the baby if thats your core argument. Or are you one of the many who is suddenly against it all now that the reality is in your face?

Lord help to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can. And rhe wisdom to know the difference.

Or some such

Stonedpilot · 24-05-2018 09:39AM

Grayson wrote: »

I believe you'll find that most yes voters here do know what it involves.

I'm not clicking on that link but it's nice to see that the tradition of using graphic imagery instead of an argument still exists.

Its a video of a man speaking to congress in America!.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 09:40AM

The fact of the matter is that the No side are basing their whole argument on the fact that the current proposal is "too extreme".

They want us to vote No and demand a better, more restricted proposal from the government.

The dog on the street knows that if the government somehow came up with a proposal limited to just rape and FFA, they wouldn't back that either.
They won't support abortion in any circumstances.
They admitted as much when they said they would force a raped child to remain pregnant against her will.
They will object, just as they objected to POLDPA, which they are now ironically leaning on as proof that we don't need to Repeal.

So anyone reading this, who has concerns about the 12 weeks, and is considering voting No to see if the government come back with a more conservative proposal, they won't support that either.

They will undoubtedly use the same shock tactics that they used in this campaign to incite fear and confusion, they won't hold back and will use similar crude, inaccurate posters as they did for this referendum, except this time they will be targeting FFA and Rape.
They don't give a sh*t. Can you imagine the type of posters these people will come up with, if that were to happen?
They have zero respect and zero sensitivity. They have no problem spreading misinformation.

Anyone thinking they will support abortion in those cases is fooling themselves. And I for one do not want to see FFA and cases of rape used on their posters when they undoubtedly vote against that too.
Repeal the 8th.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:41AM

Brego888 wrote: »

I can't wait for this to be over.
It's a horrible thing we are being asked to vote on. There are no winners here. Either a yes or no outcome results in people losing.

.

Indeed. Both sides act if if there is nothing to be balanced. Either side will crash to the ground when the 'winner' jumps off the see saw

Galwayguy35 · 24-05-2018 09:41AM

Whoever thought it was a good idea to put Ronan Mullen on last night must be kicking themselves today.

I thought Pat Kenny did well making sure they didn't get a chance to shout over each other so we could hear what was being said.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 09:41AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Its a video of a man speaking to congress in America!.

does he say anything we dont already know?

Ush1 · 24-05-2018 09:44AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I find it insulting that I can’t be trusted to not terminate a pregnancy, despite the fact that when I had an unplanned pregnancy I chose to continue with it when I had easy access to abortion.

Well I could find it insulting that I can't be trusted to not murder someone but there is obviously legal ramifications if I was to do that. Why can't they just trust me?

Regulating something socially is very different to regulating legally.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 09:44AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Lord help to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can. And rhe wisdom to know the difference.

Or some such

So accept that women that want an abortion will not be stopped by the 8th amendment. What you can change is whether they do it safely or not.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 09:44AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the craic with the "trust women" slogan on yes posters? I think its a bit of a strawman argument. The no side is not saying they don't trust women.

We aren't being asked to trust women on every single issue on every single topic.

We are being asked to trust them with decisions for their own personal healthcare.
Not a big ask, in my opinion.

Mrsmum · 24-05-2018 09:45AM

brooke 2 wrote: »

She has proven herself to be a hypocrite tonight by trivialising mental health. :mad:

Just because she doesn't see abortion as any solution for mental health does not mean she is trivialising mental health.
And secondly it is widely acknowledged that 'mental health' has become a box ticking exercise reason for abortion in the UK.

Stonedpilot · 24-05-2018 09:45AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The core pro-life families, the Sherlocks, the Ascoughs and their tight connections will continue to blather on about the issue, using Iona and the like to cover the fact that they are speaking for the Bishops who are now too toxic to speak for themselves, but based on referenda like divorce and same-sex marriage, once this is finally won, the losers will mostly just disappear.

And the sky will not fall, society will not collapse, the American loonies will put away their chequebooks and the whole matter will fade from the public spotlight.

It'll be a private matter between a woman and her doctor, the end.

It wont go away. Will always be an issue. Especially if No wins which I think it will by very small margin.

Maybe yanks have funded some of the No campaign but its ironic going up against all political parties no one mentions the fortune SF/FF/FG pumped into a yes vote. Just the no sides funding gets brought up.

The posters are a waste anyway.

Leroy42 · 24-05-2018 09:45AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

.

Indeed. Both sides act if if there is nothing to be balanced. Either side will crash to the ground when the 'winner' jumps off the see saw

I don't get that feeling at all. The Yes side, or those that I have talked to, understand that this is a very complex issue with no real winners. They are looking for the best "worst" solution to the issue.

The No side seem far more dogmatic. Their position is right, and any issues from that position is just something people need to get over. Nothing is more important than the foetus. Yes they agree that women go through trauma and pain and heartache, but it is a price worth paying to preserve the life of the unborn.

Pudsy33 · 24-05-2018 09:46AM

Brego888 wrote: »

I can't wait for this to be over.
It's a horrible thing we are being asked to vote on. There are no winners here. Either a yes or no outcome results in people losing.

No one loses anything with a Yes vote. Woman however do stand to gain basic human rights.

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 09:47AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

If you know society is going down the tubes it gives you freedom to truly enjoy things knowing its all going tits up.

Society has been going down the tubes according to these idiots for my whole life.

Oddly, society has in fact improved immeasurably in that time.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 24-05-2018 09:47AM

DarkScar wrote: »

But it wasn't anything human. Why were you sad?

Mod note: DarkScar, don't post in this thread again,

Buford T. Justice

Billy86 · 24-05-2018 09:49AM

Akrasia wrote: »

Of course they are. Their entire campaign is about how women will use abortion 'on demand'. Implying that women will be frivolous and irresponsible and use it as a form of contraception

Don't forget "lifestyle abortions" every few weeks too. The no campaign could have ran on something else, but instead chose (there's that word again) to make "dirty whites can't be trusted" one of the main pillars they were running on.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:50AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that the No side are basing their whole argument on the fact that the current proposal is "too extreme".

Which is a view that a lot of people in the middle ground share.

Its their 'pivot' its not their whole argument

They want us to vote No and demand a better, more restricted proposal from the government.

The dog on the street knows that if the government somehow came up with a proposal limited to just rape and FFA, they wouldn't back that either.
They won't support abortion in any circumstances.
They admitted as much when they said they would force a raped child to remain pregnant against her will.
They will object, just as they objected to POLDPA, which they are now ironically leaning on as proof that we don't need to Repeal.

Who cares what they think? Who cares what they campaign for? What matters is that the country is given a chance to have the the abortion regime it wants. And a fair choice to do that.

If the country at large was happy with ffa and not aod, would you deny them the opportunity. As it is, they are offered an extreme.

Fat chance. YOU want aod and are happy that you might well have it.

So anyone reading this, who has concerns about the 12 weeks, and is considering voting No to see if the government come back with a more conservative proposal, they won't support that either.

They will undoubtedly use the same shock tactics that they used in this campaign to incite fear and confusion, they won't hold back and will use similar crude, inaccurate posters as they did for this referendum, except this time they will be targeting FFA and Rape.
They don't give a sh*t. Can you imagine the type of posters these people will come up with, if that were to happen?
They have zero respect and zero sensitivity. They have no problem spreading misinformation.

Anyone thinking they will support abortion in those cases is fooling themselves. And I for one do not want to see FFA and cases of rape used on their posters when they undoubtedly vote against that too.
Repeal the 8th.

Coz its d'only way.

railer201 · 24-05-2018 09:50AM

bnt wrote: »

I'm from the UK and so not entitled to vote, but it's not as if I've been unable to avoid the debates. The most annoying thing to me has the been the unwillingness of the No side in particular to acknowledge that Ireland is one of the last Western countries to face the abortion question. There is a wealth of data out there about the impact of legalised abortion on society. I don't know whether it's wilful ignorance, but we're over 50 years in to the sexual revolution and it's the most "liberal" societies that have the better overall outcomes.

It's perfectly normal and OK to be against abortion on a personal level - that's your right, and it's your behaviour to control. The No side are going beyond that personal mandate and saying "we know what's best for you" based on moralistic ideology, not on evidence - since the evidence points in the other direction.

Yes, the tail wants to wag the dog - the majority opinion as indicated by the Citizens Assembly, the main political parties, all the media polls and the current bookies odds count for naught with them, hence why it's imperative that all on the YES side get out and vote.

Stonedpilot · 24-05-2018 09:50AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Society has been going down the tubes according to these idiots for my whole life.

Oddly, society has in fact improved immeasurably in that time.

How?.

uptherebels · 24-05-2018 09:52AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

You do realise too that Ireland was the last western country to succumb to the dark ages? In fact, it didnt succumb.

This 'get modern' way of thinking is a lazy way to view things. It's mere keeping up with the Jones

What was that sig? The one about him who doent learn from his mistakes is bound to repeat them?

Ya getting out from under the heel of the church is a bad thing. We did learn from our mistakes that's why the laundries are gone and the power of the church is wayning.
Because we are slow to take a progressive step shouldn't be mistaken as keeping up with the Joneses.
And it's certain groups dark age mentality that is being left behind despite their best efforts

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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