The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

munsterlegend · 22-05-2018 11:20PM

captbarnacles wrote: »

While it is in your body and dependent on you it has no rights that supercede yours. Imo.

The baby is also dependent on you once it comes out.

robarmstrong · 22-05-2018 11:22PM

RobertKK wrote: »

You have a problem with me for weeks, you are bitter and twisted the way you have to do posts like the above. Then you think you act like a grown man...

I do act like a grown man Bob, I don't feel the need to resort to lying constantly, I don't snidely insult or disregard the likes of mental health being a valid ground for abortion by insinuating women are lying about it.

Only a lesser man would force a woman to continue a pregnancy she didn't want because it is not in line with his beliefs.

Only a lesser man would continue to carry the attitude you have towards these women.

Only a lesser man would insinuate the Miss P case was a public stunt.

For a grown man, you lie, a lot.

Do I have a problem with you? Absolutely I do.

retro:electro · 22-05-2018 11:24PM

RobertKK wrote: »

But where have I said they are asked to prove it?
We either trust women or we don't and all I see is Yes people here saying we can't trust women when it comes to rape.

Twisting what I said to suit yourself as usual. But what else should we expect from a lying liar who lies.

spookwoman · 22-05-2018 11:25PM

I think when they start saying you are bitter and twisted you've hit a nerve and they know they are loosing

Its also a new one for the bingo cards

robarmstrong · 22-05-2018 11:26PM

DOS wrote: »

No. They are religious. They are following their conscience. I disagree with them. But like you I respect your right to your opinion on this issue.

Sorry I probably didn't ask that the right way, that's my bad.

Absolutely they are religious, what I'm trying to say is do you feel their conscience lessens their religious side? As the very religion they are apart of outlines all life is sacred and to be protected at all costs, yet their conscience dictates to them that terminating a pregnancy (which technically is taking a life) should be allowed in certain circumstances.

Apologies if I'm not making any sense, it's late and I'm a tad tired.

RobertKK · 22-05-2018 11:28PM

spookwoman wrote: »

I think when they start saying you are bitter and twisted you've hit a nerve and they know they are loosing Its also a new one for the bingo cards

You should look at the other threads and some of the stuff Rob Armstrong posted towards me, he has a problem with me. I am happy to ignore him but he is not able to provide the same courtesy, he looks for arguments and that is why he started with the name calling with childish and lies, so are you going to say he is 'loosing'?

antiskeptic · 22-05-2018 11:28PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Mary Higgins in the audience instead.

Lucky for her. That letter read out, assuming the timing of the delivery correct, would have done to her what Monaghan did to Boylan

Hellrazer · 22-05-2018 11:28PM

RobertKK wrote: »

If you vote yes you are voting to allow unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

And if that's what a woman chooses then so be it. Its her choice. No one elses choice to make for her.

Why cant these women have the procedure here surrounded by loved ones instead of jumping on a Ryanair flight to the UK and suffering more indignity because of it?

pleas advice · 22-05-2018 11:29PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

I said being pro choice does not make me pro abortion or even "pro allowing abortion"
...

it obviously does though

if she chooses a termination then she should as a citizen of this country be allowed to seek that medical procedure .

robarmstrong · 22-05-2018 11:30PM

RobertKK wrote: »

You should look at the other threads and some of the stuff Rob Armstrong posted towards me, he has a problem with me. I am happy to ignore him but he is not able to provide the same courtesy, he looks for arguments and that is why he started with the name calling with childish and lies, so are you going to say he is 'loosing'?

You happily ignore anyone who challenges you on your lies.

It's not childish to call you a liar, it's a fact.

Do you know what a fact is? Its definitely not something to be misrepresented or twisted to suit an agenda.

RobertKK · 22-05-2018 11:30PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I do act like a grown man Bob, I don't feel the need to resort to lying constantly, I don't snidely insult or disregard the likes of mental health being a valid ground for abortion by insinuating women are lying about it.

Only a lesser man would force a woman to continue a pregnancy she didn't want because it is not in line with his beliefs.

Only a lesser man would continue to carry the attitude you have towards these women.

Only a lesser man would insinuate the Miss P case was a public stunt.

For a grown man, you lie, a lot.

Do I have a problem with you? Absolutely I do.

If you were mature, you would just ignore me, can you do that since you haven't been able to up to now?

Hellrazer · 22-05-2018 11:31PM

pleas advice wrote: »

it obviously does though

No it doesn't.

It makes me pro choice.You can actually be pro choice but not pro abortion.They are not the same thing.

storker · 22-05-2018 11:32PM

DarkScar wrote: »

Ah, so one second before a full term birth it isn't completely formed and is still a foetus. It magically metamorphs into a baby by they miraculous power of passing through a cervix.
That's about as logical as claiming it becomes a human being the instant the egg meets the sperm to be honest.

That would indeed be illogical. Please show me where I said it. The debate is about abortion up to 12 weeks, so the above is irrelevant. But it's good to see that at least you're not one of those claiming that life begins at conception.

You don't actually make any case here that it isn't murder, just that people don't mind it. So if you kill people and nobody minds then it isn't murder. Convoluted...

Not convoluted at all. It's a simple enough concept. It's not murder because the law says it's not murder and a very large number of people would say that it's not murder too. In fact, I haven't even heard that many people on the No side claim that it's murder either, so I think we can be pretty clear that...it's not murder.

22-05-2018 11:32PM

DOS wrote: »

Having read my posts I think it's fairly obvious how I'd feel!

We can exercise individual conscience though.

Now that's answered I presume you think you've scored some major point.

As the poster oldbutnotwise said today, he's an atheist, but you don't need religion to know right from wrong.

It was a genuine question, so thanks for answering sort of.

In relation to exercising our individual conscience, however, you don't seem to agree with that from your posts. Is that not a bit of a hypothetical stance? As if repeal is successful people who don't wish to avail of abortion services will be free to do so as per their individual beliefs,while those that do will also be free to do so based on theirs.

GingerLily · 22-05-2018 11:33PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

RobertKK wrote: »

If you vote yes you are voting to allow unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

And if that's what a woman chooses then so be it. Its her choice. No one elses choice to make for her.

Why cant these women have the procedure here surrounded by loved ones instead of jumping on a Ryanair flight to the UK and suffering more indignity because of it?

Or dangerously taking pills bought online. If you didn't know about that before you'd referendum you definitely will now!

robarmstrong · 22-05-2018 11:33PM

RobertKK wrote: »

If you were mature, you would just ignore me, can you do that since you haven't been able to up to now?

If you were mature, you would stop telling lies, can you do that since you haven't been able to up to now?

You try to ignore me because you tried and failed to have a debate with me, instead you got proven wrong at every twist and turn and then proceeded to get an absolute bollocking.

You're not "mature" by trying to ignore me, you're afraid. You've nothing to offer, you got proven wrong every single step of the way and came across far, far worse than imaginable.

nullzero · 22-05-2018 11:34PM

This thread has become a worrying place indeed.
From an objective point tonight's debate was reasonably equal, the notion that there were "winners" shows the problem with this issue; the need for dominion of one side over the other.
There are family members, friends and colleagues etc who hold differing views on the referendum and most hold their views for considered and moderate reasons on both sides, yet all we see here is pathetic thriumphalism and echo chamber post thanking all who agree with our given opinions, the only debate is narrow and related to point scoring, no insult or childish ridicule is too low, we have degenerated into mindless pigs once the insult suits our argument whatever loose approximation of the term we display here.

This issue has highlighted the inability of modern Ireland to have a genuine discourse, neither side have been willing or able to empathize with the other and debate rationally.
Going forward I fear for this country, not because we may legalize abortion, but because we've become so horrifically regressive in terms of how we manage discourse over important issues.

DOS · 22-05-2018 11:34PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Sorry I probably didn't ask that the right way, that's my bad.

Absolutely they are religious, what I'm trying to say is do you feel their conscience lessens their religious side? As the very religion they are apart of outlines all life is sacred and to be protected at all costs, yet their conscience dictates to them that terminating a pregnancy (which technically is taking a life) should be allowed in certain circumstances.

Apologies if I'm not making any sense, it's late and I'm a tad tired.

I find their conscientious decisions a little puzzling given their religious status. Yes.

How come you apologised for a lack of clarity in DubinMeath's post? Have you a duplicate account?

pleas advice · 22-05-2018 11:34PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I do act like a grown man Bob, I don't feel the need to resort to lying constantly, I don't snidely insult or disregard the likes of mental health being a valid ground for abortion by insinuating women are lying about it..

are people still denying that abortion in the UK is de facto available on request

PurvesGrundy · 22-05-2018 11:35PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

No it doesn't.

It makes me pro choice.You can actually be pro choice but not pro abortion.They are not the same thing.

Do you trust women to always make the right decision in this instance?

BarleySweets · 22-05-2018 11:36PM

DOS wrote: »

Having read my posts I think it's fairly obvious how I'd feel!

We can exercise individual conscience though.

Now that's answered I presume you think you've scored some major point.

As the poster oldbutnotwise said today, he's an atheist, but you don't need religion to know right from wrong.

If, as you clearly stated here in your own words, “you don’t need religion to know right from wrong” is you speaking the truth: why oh why did you treat us all to dozens of rants across a timespan of hours today bemoaning the fact that a secular Ireland that entirely rejects religion would be a doomed society?

Earlier today, you literally gloated about how sure you were that the Irish population is currently 40% staunch Christian and that you are sure that this Christian population is absolutely not dying out, while also asserting that this Christian population will be the ones to keep Ireland on the straight and narrow so I don’t see how you can believe both of those ideologies without contradicting yourself.

A second question, if you feel so strongly that we don’t need religion to know right from wrong, why do we need religion at all?

robarmstrong · 22-05-2018 11:36PM

DOS wrote: »

I find their conscientious decisions a little puzzling given their religious status. Yes.

How come you apologised for a lack of clarity in DubinMeath's post? Have you a duplicate account?

I apologized for a lack of clarity in my own original post to you.

DOS · 22-05-2018 11:37PM

nullzero wrote: »

This thread has become a worrying place indeed.
From an objective point tonight's debate was reasonably equal, the notion that there were "winners" shows the problem with this issue; the need for dominion of one side over the other.
There are family members, friends and colleagues etc who hold differing views on the referendum and most hold their views for considered and moderate reasons on both sides, yet all we see here is pathetic thriumphalism and echo chamber post thanking all who agree with our given opinions, the only debate is narrow and related to point scoring, no insult or childish ridicule is too low, we have degenerated into mindless pigs once the insult suits our argument whatever loose approximation of the term we display here.

This issue has highlighted the inability of modern Ireland to have a genuine discourse, neither side have been willing or able to empathize with the other and debate rationally.
Going forward I fear for this country, not because we may legalize abortion, but because we've become so horrifically regressive in terms of how we manage discourse over important issues.

Well said.

DarkScar · 22-05-2018 11:37PM

storker wrote: »

That would indeed be illogical. Please show me where I said it. The debate is about abortion up to 12 weeks, so the above is irrelevant. But it's good to see that at least you're not one of those claiming that life begins at conception.

So you've picked 12 weeks as when the foetus becomes a human? Or are you just weasling out of anything approaching a commitment on that by telling us "what the debate is about" with answering anything at all?

storker wrote: »

Not convoluted at all. It's a simple enough concept. It's not murder because the law says it's not murder and a very large number of people would say that it's not murder too. In fact, I haven't even heard that many people on the No side claim that it's murder either, so I think we can be pretty clear that...it's not murder.

If it's a human and you deliberately kill it then it's murder. That's the only logically consistent conclusion. Not interested in what case you're making against what other people say.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-05-2018 11:37PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

The baby is also dependent on you once it comes out.

It's not. It can be cared for by any adult.

storker wrote: »

It's not murder because the law says it's not murder and a very large number of people would say that it's not murder too. In fact, I haven't even heard that many people on the No side claim that it's murder either, so I think we can be pretty clear that...it's not murder.

POLDPA doesn't say it's murder, the 1861 act we had before that didn't, either, and I'm not sure the law before 1861 treated abortion as murder, either.

Damn liberal Victorians.

RobertKK · 22-05-2018 11:38PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

If you were mature, you would stop telling lies, can you do that since you haven't been able to up to now?

You try to ignore me because you tried and failed to have a debate with me, instead you got proven wrong at every twist and turn and then proceeded to get an absolute bollocking.

You're not "mature" by trying to ignore me, you're afraid. You've nothing to offer, you got proven wrong every single step of the way and came across far, far worse than imaginable.

Case proven against you.

I am not the person who started replying to you tonight, you chose to and with your usual 'lies' because that is how one has a grown up debate, they just keep calling one a liar.

Why would I want to reply to someone who acts the way you do towards me? I choose to avoid you as all I get is name calling and the mods do nothing about it, but then the site does have Yes advertising on it.

DarkScar · 22-05-2018 11:39PM

pleas advice wrote: »

are people still denying that abortion in the UK is de facto available on request

The psychiatrist from TCD refused point blank to answer if "mental health" case abortions in the UK were really mental health issues... just went on a rant about some unidentified people denying mental health issues exist.

RobertKK · 22-05-2018 11:39PM

Rob Armstrong is now on my ignore list, so he can post all the crap he wants about me now unhindered.

swampgas · 22-05-2018 11:40PM

nullzero wrote: »

This thread has become a worrying place indeed.
From an objective point tonight's debate was reasonably equal, the notion that there were "winners" shows the problem with this issue; the need for dominion of one side over the other.
There are family members, friends and colleagues etc who hold differing views on the referendum and most hold their views for considered and moderate reasons on both sides, yet all we see here is pathetic thriumphalism and echo chamber post thanking all who agree with our given opinions, the only debate is narrow and related to point scoring, no insult or childish ridicule is too low, we have degenerated into mindless pigs once the insult suits our argument whatever loose approximation of the term we display here.

This issue has highlighted the inability of modern Ireland to have a genuine discourse, neither side have been willing or able to empathize with the other and debate rationally.
Going forward I fear for this country, not because we may legalize abortion, but because we've become so horrifically regressive in terms of how we manage discourse over important issues.

Don't know how old you are but compared to the antics in 1983 I'd have to say we have come a very long way.

DarkScar · 22-05-2018 11:41PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's not. It can be cared for by any adult.

So anybody in your care you can let them die as you have no responsibility to them. If nobody else magically appears then they die but that's OK, somebody else could have cared for them. But didn't.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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