The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Dressing gown · 22-05-2018 05:07PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No, it can't go any further while the 8th is in place, because it gives the zygote/embryo/foetus an equal right to life as that of the woman.

And you can be sure the hard line pro life crew who are against abortion in any circumstance would mount a legal challenge to any such legislation as being unconstitutional.

Calina · 22-05-2018 05:07PM

Edz87 wrote: »

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Those "certain cases" are where the woman will likely die without a termination.

Of course five years ago many of those who are now No campaigners were campaigning against this law. In other words they were happy to allow pregnant women to die.

Ok but the government can hypothetically widen the scope of cases where termination can be permissible, seeing as its done it before?

No. That Act was justifiable following a Supreme Court judgment more 20 years before that highlight the right to life of the mother within the 8th amendment. X case and it saddens me that people seem not to understand this.

seamus · 22-05-2018 05:13PM

RTE are resisting because they don't want the same old faces on every debate.

From one angle you have people who'll lose the plot if theres not "balance" and "every voice" isn't heard, and on the other you have groups trying to put the sane voices up for every debate.

Sometimes the media can't win.

Though if RTE dig their heels in then McGuirk might end up on it and that'll be almost comedic.

Achasanai · 22-05-2018 05:15PM

seamus wrote: »

Though if RTE dig their heels in then McGuirk might end up on it and that'll be almost comedic.

Win-win for Yes, in my opinion. The two clangers are McGuirk and Sherlock, and it seems they at least realise that with regards to Sherlock.

pjohnson · 22-05-2018 05:16PM

seamus wrote: »

RTE are resisting because they don't want the same old faces on every debate.

From one angle you have people who'll lose the plot if theres not "balance" and "every voice" isn't heard, and on the other you have groups trying to put the sane voices up for every debate.

Sometimes the media can't win.

Though if RTE dig their heels in then McGuirk might end up on it and that'll be almost comedic.

Heres hoping

applehunter · 22-05-2018 05:16PM

seamus wrote: »

RTE are resisting because they don't want the same old faces on every debate.

From one angle you have people who'll lose the plot if theres not "balance" and "every voice" isn't heard, and on the other you have groups trying to put the sane voices up for every debate.

Sometimes the media can't win.

Though if RTE dig their heels in then McGuirk might end up on it and that'll be almost comedic.

Where's your future Taoiseach Kate O'Connell gone?

She was giving it loads when the referendum was announced?

erica74 · 22-05-2018 05:17PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Why would they try to do that after 12 weeks when they could have requested an abortion before 12 weeks?

Exactly! If a woman can get and needs an abortion at <12 weeks, she's obviously going to go with that, rather than wait it out until 5 or 6 months and then have a battle on her hands. The reality is that a woman who needs an abortion that late in her pregnancy will most likely be someone who didn't think she needed one at 12 weeks in.

pjohnson · 22-05-2018 05:19PM

applehunter wrote: »

Where's your future Taoiseach Kate O'Connell gone?

She was giving it loads when the referendum was announced?

Why do you want a no campaigner replaced by a yes campaigner :pac:

seamus · 22-05-2018 05:20PM

applehunter wrote: »

Where's your future Taoiseach Kate O'Connell gone?

She was giving it loads when the referendum was announced?

She's been doing grassroots work knocking on doors and engaging in events. She's been working solidly for the last few months.

Politicians in general are staying away from the televised debates because they tend to be too easily derailed into a politiking rather than debating the referendum.

gmisk · 22-05-2018 05:26PM

Achasanai wrote: »

Win-win for Yes, in my opinion. The two clangers are McGuirk and Sherlock, and it seems they at least realise that with regards to Sherlock.

I don't think any indication Mcguirk will be on it?

I hope it is him he would be a disaster

kanadams123 · 22-05-2018 05:32PM

Hi..so ive gotten a td confused..who is on the Prime Time Debate tonight..for both sides?!!!

retro:electro · 22-05-2018 05:34PM

“Not having to give a reason up to 12 weeks does not mean that the woman doesn’t have a reason”.

Summed up perfectly by Leo on the news there.

gmisk · 22-05-2018 05:36PM

kanadams123 wrote: »

Hi..so ive gotten a td confused..who is on the Prime Time Debate tonight..for both sides?!!!

Simon Harris for yes
And meant to be
Peader toibin for no

erica74 · 22-05-2018 05:36PM

retro:electro wrote: »

“Not having to give a reason up to 12 weeks does not mean that the women doesn’t have a reason”.

Summed up perfectly by Leo on the news there.

Very nicely put.

Achasanai · 22-05-2018 05:36PM

gmisk wrote: »

I don't think any indication Mcguirk will be on it?

I hope it is him he would be a disaster

I wouldn't think so (if they had any sense - particularly after last night). I was responding to this:

seamus wrote: »

Though if RTE dig their heels in then McGuirk might end up on it and that'll be almost comedic.

erica74 · 22-05-2018 05:40PM

gmisk wrote: »

Simon Harris for yes
And meant to be
Peader toibin for no

I do hope they both know what they're talking about and deal in facts.

NuMarvel · 22-05-2018 05:41PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Update on tonight debate looks like cora is gone

https://twitter.com/KevDoyle_Indo/status/998968196710445056

It's nice that Cora's choice not to continue is being respected.

pjohnson · 22-05-2018 05:42PM

erica74 wrote: »

I do hope they both know what they're talking about and deal in facts.

Ah thats mean on poor Peadar tbf

gmisk · 22-05-2018 05:49PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

It's nice that Cora's choice not to continue is being respected.

Zing!

freshpopcorn · 22-05-2018 05:51PM

Does anybody know what Simon Harris is like in a debate?

Guy:Incognito · 22-05-2018 05:51PM

erica74 wrote: »

I do hope they both know what they're talking about and deal in facts.

Can't see why the no side would start with facts now.

Sure you can just stick whatever you like on a poster and throw a question mark on the end.

Bannasidhe · 22-05-2018 05:51PM

DOS wrote: »

You fail to see the big picture. The reconversion of Europe to Christianity in the dark ages. The Catholic faith has survived penal laws, they had to pay a tax on glass (daylight robbery), priests banished, fathers to divide land among sons bar the eldest turned CoI, couldn't own a horse worth more than 5 pounds, no education, banned from jobs.. their faith survived.

It will survive a few anti religious like you too. Do you seriously think society would have been better off without Christianity? It's not perfect but far and away ahead of Paganism.

Where Tuam and abuses would be multiplied many fold.

I realise this was posted several hours ago but I was unable to comment earlier.

It's complete and utter nonsense.

Firstly - the 'conversion' of Europe was at the point of a sword. The key was to 'convert' the leader who would then literally force everyone else - with the aid of the Church. Ironically due to the nature of Irish society this tactic didn't work here which is why Gaelic society remained secular in nature until the final phase of the Tudor/Stuart conquest.

Secondly - The Penal Laws were aimed at all non-Anglicans (because that was the State religion) and was imposed across the U.K and Ireland. If 'Catholics' were not 'allowed' to a horse worth more than £5 please explain the wealth of the Catholic O'Connells of Derrynane? Ditto land ownership.

Priest's were initially banished because the Pope instructed Catholics to murder Elizabeth I - and many tried. When they failed via England, they tried via Ireland. An English Priest named Saunders was the instigator of direct Papal military action in Ireland when in 1580 he was part of a 600 strong invasion by Papal and Italian troops which landed in Kerry.

Land in Ireland was traditionally divided equally among all the sons. Which indirectly led to the Famine as by the 1840s the plots of land available to grow food had become so small that the only crop possible which could sustain life pretty much on it's own was the potato. When that failed =famine. The type of potato grown by the way is called a 'lumper' - highly nutritious but prone to blight.

A system of free National Schools was introduced in Ireland in the Victorian Era but most of these were co-opted by the local Catholic priest as the system used was that of a local management. They became the State funded 'Catholic' schools that still plague our education system.

As for Christianity being far and away above 'paganism'* tell me, where is the 'pagan' version of the Roman Catholic Auto-de Fé? Of the Spanish Inquisition? Of the massacre of the Cathars? Of the Witchburnings? Up to 80,000 people were executed for 'witchcraft', 500 in Geneva alone in 1515/16, in 1524 1,000 in Cumo. The main Witchcraze lasted from 1550 to 1700. 40% of the executions took place in Germany. Protestants and Catholics alike took part.

Tuam is but one of many atrocities committed by Christians in a long line of atrocities.

*(which by the way literally means 'forest dwellers' as distinct from 'City dwellers'/' civitas' - it's where we get our word 'civilised'. The word 'culchi' in Ireland has the same meaning as pagan. It comes from the word 'Coillte').

Guy:Incognito · 22-05-2018 05:54PM

In 1983 there was 2,358,651 registered voters according to the wiki article on the referendum. How many are there now?

Zubeneschamali · 22-05-2018 05:55PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

In 1983 there was 2,358,651 regist3red voters according to the wiki article on the referendum. How many are there now?

3.2 million.

Fr_Dougal · 22-05-2018 05:55PM

Annabella1 wrote: »

For those undecided I will say simply this

Look at the numbers obstetricians,doctors and midwives calling for a yes vote

Professionals who deal with traumatised women every week facing difficult trips overseas without adequate medical support at home

The yes/no split isn't even close

Over 1k doctors voting yes. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/abortion-over-1-000-doctors-call-for-yes-vote-in-referendum-1.3493355

20,473 doctors(2015 figures, they have gone up since) registered in Ireland. https://www.imt.ie/news/highest-number-of-doctors-registered-by-imc-14-03-2016/

I’m not voting No, but it’s good to do a fact check.

22-05-2018 05:56PM

DOS wrote: »

Look at the numbers attending communions and confirmations across Christian persuasions. Practice of faith is cyclical and many are returning. I'm CoI, huge amount at church. I went with an RC friend to mass in Portlaoise, massive turnout of all ages.

You probably aren't aware of this as you don't attend church I presume and are brain washed by secular media who would never print these things.

Of course their going to do their first holy communion and confirmation their big pay days for kids in terms of money

gmisk · 22-05-2018 05:59PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Does anybody know what Simon Harris is like in a debate?

I'm not sure tbh he wouldn't be my first choice.
Professor Mary Higgins though is terrifically knowledgeable so hopefully she is given a chance to talk.

In fairness she is a consultant Obstetrician/ Gynaecologist. With a Sub-specialty in Maternal Fetal Medicine

gmisk · 22-05-2018 06:01PM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Over 1k doctors voting yes. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/abortion-over-1-000-doctors-call-for-yes-vote-in-referendum-1.3493355

20,473 doctors(2015 figures, they have gone up since) registered in Ireland. https://www.imt.ie/news/highest-number-of-doctors-registered-by-imc-14-03-2016/

I’m not voting No, but it’s good to do a fact check.

I think about 1500 are now down in that register as backing a yes.
How many are backing no? That would be a more fair comparison.

22-05-2018 06:01PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I mean, I LIKE the moon but i'm not sure i'm ready to worship it.

Its no special k alright.

Billy86 · 22-05-2018 06:02PM

DOS wrote: »

The ones running the show are the government and media.

No, the ones running the show on the no campaign side are the leaders of their no campaign, which is why I pointed out that "in the no campaign the nastiest ones are the ones running the show."

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Comments