The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

seamus · 21-05-2018 01:29PM

Mr.H wrote: »

I am arguing that yes you can have an abortion in this country when there is a chance you could become physically ill and potentially die.

Well at least you've now included "potentially die". Before you were arguing that the risk of physical illness was sufficient.

But once more, you are wrong.

There has to be a "real and substantial" risk. The risk of developing a life-threatening illness is insufficient. There must be a risk of death.

In effect, you have to develop the life-threatening illness before any decision can be made. Even then an abortion can be denied if the illness isn't quite threatening enough.

No, that doesn't mean a woman has to be almost dead. But she does have to be staring death in the face. It's the difference between being held hostage by a person with a gun in its holster or with a gun to your head.

Both will "potentially" kill you, but the risk from one is clearly higher than the other.

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 01:30PM

Sorry but everything you are posting contradicts your alleged position.

January · 21-05-2018 01:31PM

Mr.H wrote: »

It is a solution for an unwanted child.

It's not a solution for me, and wasn't and wouldn't be if I were to become pregnant again, what do you suggest for me?

....... · 21-05-2018 01:34PM

This post has been deleted.

gmisk · 21-05-2018 01:38PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Truthfully yes.

I have already stated that my opinions probably fall on the pro life side of the spectrum. But I do believe from a logic point of view that we need to repeal it. But just because I am voting yes doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about the issues.

The last time I was in this forum I got lots of random posters reporting me. Needless to say I wasn't even given a warning. These posters just didn't like what I was saying so reported me. It has happened again just today someone hot agreeing just reporting me. I mean why can't we disagree without it getting petty.

Do I think there should be abortion free to anyone? No I don't.
Do I think abortion will become a contraceptive like it is in many countries? Yes I do.

Why am I voting yes? Because repealing the 8th and legalising abortion are two different things. It is necessary to repeal before it can be legislated but voting yes doesn't mean we are voting for abortion. We will never get the choice to legalise abortion. That is what the dail is for.

So yes I am voting yes. But everyone has a right to vote whatever way they want. If you (the royal you. Not you personally) are really pro choice you should understand that.

I do appreciate your honest response, and the thought that has gone into your vote.

I like being called the royal you so your grand with that

kylith · 21-05-2018 01:40PM

Mr.H wrote: »

kylith wrote:

That is not a solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

It is a solution for an unwanted child.

But the pregnancy and birth must still be gone through. This is far from a cake-walk and something that a woman should not be forced to endure against her will.

antiskeptic · 21-05-2018 01:40PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

You're inclined to assume a great deal without evidence and in doing so you are being needlessly unkind.

Evidence? That selfishness constitutes a not-insignificant component of mankind's motivations for doing anything?

You want to see my local Tesco's recently when a news of a major water main burst got round. Deep shopping trolleys stacked up to overflowing trundling out the door - "survival of the fittest" expressions on.

You been living under a rock?

"It's hard to get a man to believe something when his livelihood depends on him not believing it"

Mr.H · 21-05-2018 01:42PM

SusieBlue wrote:

Sorry but everything you are posting contradicts your alleged position.

That doesn't matter. They are my views. It doesn't change my position. I have never once said that I am voting no. I have always said I am voting yes but with doubt.

....... wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I am not going to give you sex tips. Your an adult I assume. You know how the whole thing works.

Just because you don't want to get pregnant is not a good reason for abortion to exist.

antiskeptic · 21-05-2018 01:42PM

kylith wrote: »

But the pregnancy and birth must still be gone through. This is far from a cake-walk and something that a woman should not be forced to endure against her will.

If only the state would jump in whenever the negative consequences of my own choices arrived at the door.

Mr.H · 21-05-2018 01:42PM

January wrote:

It's not a solution for me, and wasn't and wouldn't be if I were to become pregnant again, what do you suggest for me?

So instead you would just keep having abortions?

Cool

NuMarvel · 21-05-2018 01:43PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Nobody ever knows, it is just guesswork.

The 8th was rather low in 1983, just 54%. Many men apparently thought is was a "women's issue".

After the X case, the turnout for the 12th, 13th, 14th was up at 68%. Some amendments have been below 30% turnout!

There have been 125,000 new or amended voter registrations compared to 70,000 before the marriage equality referendum. And there are home to vote campaigns running for both sides of the campaign. Based on that, I'd say turnout will be higher than normal, in terms of numbers any way, if not percentages.

gmisk · 21-05-2018 01:44PM

Mr.H wrote: »

So instead you would just keep having abortions?

Cool

I think you should really read some more of Januarys posts to get some kind of perspective and context before making that fairly mean and flippant remark.

Calina · 21-05-2018 01:44PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Just because you don't want to get pregnant is not a good reason for abortion to exist.

I have to ask at this point whether you are male or female?

Because I do not think you can make this assertion if you have no possibility of ever experiencing pregnancy.

Mr.H · 21-05-2018 01:45PM

kylith wrote:

But the pregnancy and birth must still be gone through. This is far from a cake-walk and something that a woman should not be forced to endure against her will.

Would you ever. No-one forced her to get pregnant. There are ways to minimise the chances of getting pregnant.

Calina · 21-05-2018 01:46PM

Mr.H wrote: »

kylith wrote:

But the pregnancy and birth must still be gone through. This is far from a cake-walk and something that a woman should not be forced to endure against her will.

Would you ever. No-one forced her to get pregnant. There are ways to minimise the chances of getting pregnant.

And supposing she was raped?

....... · 21-05-2018 01:47PM

This post has been deleted.

retro:electro · 21-05-2018 01:48PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Would you ever. No-one forced her to get pregnant. There are ways to minimise the chances of getting pregnant.

Ah now the mask slips. I do not believe for one second you have any intention of voting Yes on Friday. You’re fooling no one with your pretend pro-choice stance with a side of slut shaming for good measure.

nullzero · 21-05-2018 01:49PM

January wrote: »

It's not a solution for me, and wasn't and wouldn't be if I were to become pregnant again, what do you suggest for me?

There are a lot of people in this country who were adopted having been unwanted pregnancies. True the practice isn't commonplace today, but do these people not have the right to life as well? Your decisions are your own, but to say that an unwanted pregnancy should always equal an abortion (I realize you haven't said that exactly before you say anything) is incredibly insensitive.
It is hard to explain how it feels for a person to know they were unwanted but were then fortunate enough to be given chance to live by adoptive parents and how fulfilling the role of being an adoptive parent is to people who cannot conceive themselves and would give anything to have the opportunity to conceive and have their own child.

I feel abortion should be legal and used at the very end of need, women should not be criminalized for having abortions and unsafe consumption of pills etc should become a thing of the past.
I also feel that there needs to be a debate about the reproductive rights of men, or lack thereof, how can we have equality in an age where popular opinion suggests men shouldn't have any say because of their gender? This is total sexism and makes a mockery of any sense of equality.

There is a alarming lack of empathy on both sides of this debate for the others position and how they arrived there.

Ultimately my feeling is that the law needs to changed but what we're voting on has been rushed through to gain support for Fine Gael in the upcoming general election and for such a serious subject such a background is less than ideal.

Monkey09 · 21-05-2018 01:49PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Because it does.

From what i have read about what doctors say about this is that the 8th has never prevented him/her from giving the woman the care she needs.

Mr.H · 21-05-2018 01:49PM

gmisk wrote:

I think you should really read some more of Januarys posts to get some kind of perspective and context before making that fairly mean and flippant remark.

My comment isn't suppose to be mean. My comment is to show that abortion isn't the answer.

Let's say aborting exists. You get pregnant and don't want it so you have an abortion. Leta say you get pregnant again. Do you have another abortion? What if it happens a third fourth or fifth time? More abortions?

Because that is what is being talked about. You don't wanna go through a pregnancy and that bus fair enough. But what does that mean? You talk as if you can get pregnant so early then surely you would just keep getting pregnant.

By the way you could always have your tubes tied or your husband could get the snip.

Abortion won't fix your issue

Timberrrrrrrr · 21-05-2018 01:49PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Would you ever. No-one forced her to get pregnant. There are ways to minimise the chances of getting pregnant.

Being the operative word!

Does not prevent 100%

Cupcake_Crisis · 21-05-2018 01:49PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Would you ever. No-one forced her to get pregnant. There are ways to minimise the chances of getting pregnant.

Exactly, minimize, not eliminate completely unless you want to abstain from sex altogether. You can be as careful as possible, but it can still happen.

kylith · 21-05-2018 01:50PM

Mr.H wrote: »

kylith wrote:

But the pregnancy and birth must still be gone through. This is far from a cake-walk and something that a woman should not be forced to endure against her will.

Would you ever. No-one forced her to get pregnant. There are ways to minimise the chances of getting pregnant.

Because rape isn’t a thing and contraception never fails?

‘I am pregnant and I do not want to be.’ Your solution please.

January · 21-05-2018 01:51PM

Mr.H wrote: »

So instead you would just keep having abortions?

Cool

Well I'm using contraception, but it's already failed on me once... so y'know... If I got pregnant again, I couldn't raise another child... what is your solution for me?

....... · 21-05-2018 01:51PM

This post has been deleted.

Mr.H · 21-05-2018 01:52PM

Calina wrote:

Because I do not think you can make this assertion if you have no possibility of ever experiencing pregnancy.

I am male and don't assume. We all have issues that we all have dealt with. I don't want to discuss personal matters on a forum but I very much understand.

Cupcake_Crisis · 21-05-2018 01:52PM

Mr.H wrote: »

My comment isn't suppose to be mean. My comment is to show that abortion isn't the answer.

Let's say aborting exists. You get pregnant and don't want it so you have an abortion. Leta say you get pregnant again. Do you have another abortion? What if it happens a third fourth or fifth time? More abortions?

Because that is what is being talked about. You don't wanna go through a pregnancy and that bus fair enough. But what does that mean? You talk as if you can get pregnant so early then surely you would just keep getting pregnant.

By the way you could always have your tubes tied or your husband could get the snip.

Abortion won't fix your issue

Please have conversations with women who have had abortions, educate yourself about the process. To call it unpleasant would be a massive understatement.

Mr.H · 21-05-2018 01:53PM

Calina wrote:

And supposing she was raped?

Suppose she wasn't.

I am not talking about those kind of issues. I've already said on here multiple times that I agree with certain circumstances. The issue is the flippant cases.

January · 21-05-2018 01:54PM

nullzero wrote: »

There are a lot of people in this country who were adopted having been unwanted pregnancies. True the practice isn't commonplace today, but do these people not have the right to life as well? Your decisions are your own, but to say that an unwanted pregnancy should always equal an abortion (I realize you haven't said that exactly before you say anything) is incredibly insensitive.
It is hard to explain how it feels for a person to know they were unwanted but were then fortunate enough to be given chance to live by adoptive parents and how fulfilling the role of being an adoptive parent is to people who cannot conceive themselves and would give anything to have the opportunity to conceive and have their own child.

I feel abortion should be legal and used at the very end of need, women should not be criminalized for having abortions and unsafe consumption of pills etc should become a thing of the past.
I also feel that there needs to be a debate about the reproductive rights of men, or lack thereof, how can we have equality in an age where popular opinion suggests men shouldn't have any say because of their gender? This is total sexism and makes a mockery of any sense of equality.

There is a alarming lack of empathy on both sides of this debate for the others position and how they arrived there.

Ultimately my feeling is that the law needs to changed but what we're voting on has been rushed through to gain support for Fine Gael in the upcoming general election and for such a serious subject such a background is less than ideal.

My husband is adopted. He struggles a lot with his feelings about being unwanted by his birth mother. People should have the choice of whether they want to go through with the pregnancy and adopt or not. It shouldn't be mandatory and there should be alternatives available. My husband is pro-choice.

Mr.H · 21-05-2018 01:55PM

retro:electro wrote:

Ah now the mask slips. I do not believe for one second you have any intention of voting Yes on Friday. Youâ€™re fooling no one with your pretend pro-choice stance with a side of slut shaming for good measure.

What are you on about slur shaming. Would you ever get a grip. The sly dig to get a few thanks.

I don't care what way you think I'll vote. It's my choice.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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